Magic as skills

[fredrik_nilsson]

I know that this thread might have been more appropriate for the Fantasy Hero part of the board, but since this is more of a rule question than a genre question I’ve decided to post it here anyway.

 

For some reason I’ve become more found of the new edition of GURPS than I expected I would, but my players haven’t. To be honest, haven’t they even looked at the books, but my players aren’t much for fixing something that isn’t broken. Until now we’ve mainly run d20 and the storyteller system, with some occasional “exotic” system for flavor. Anyway, now the winds are changing and some of the players (me included) feel like its time for something different. One of the players would really like to try Fantasy Hero, since he feels like d20 is a bit to “rigid” (for lack of a better word).

 

As I wrote before I like the new edition of GURPS, and I feel that its close enough to the Hero System that I could take the parts I like in GURPS and use them in this game. The majority of the stuff (templates, skills, advantages and so on) are already in the Hero System, so I can take them as they are (naturally some names change, but that it).

 

The main problem is the magic system, and this is where I want the help from you guys.

 

For those that aren’t familiar with GURPS, the magic system is skilled based. To learn a certain skill, all you need to do is learn its skill (and its perquisites). To be a magician you also need the Mage Advantage.

 

Converting the GURPS skills to Hero Skills is simple, and the Mage Advantage should probably be a talent (isn’t there one in Fantasy Hero already?). The energy cost in Fatigue Points needs to be converted into END, which probably means I have to reconstruct the spells into powers.

 

And now over to the real questions (I’m sorry for taking so long)…

 

Has this been done by anyone else on this board, and if so what are the experiences?

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Yep, it's been done. IIRC the first person to suggest it was Bryce Nakagawa way back in the dark ages.

 

There are a couple of things to bear in mind - GURPS spells are limited by Fatigue, which is much more restricting than END in Hero system. END is far cheaper (so you start with more) and also you get it back faster. In GURPS you needed to think about when to cast a spell, because you didn't get that many uses. This is not true in HERO, if END is the only limiting factor.

 

However, it wasn't true in GURPS either, if you bought Magery 3 and a magic skill of 20, in which case you could cast spells like Firefinger for free, turning mages into killing machines. This is what happens in Hero if you use this system without some control.

 

In adition, GURPS had the prerequisite system, meaning you had to waste a lot of points on spells you rarely if ever used, to get the nasty ones - this helped keep mages under control to a tiny degree. Last of all, the spells in GURPS were fixed, so you could pick and choose (within the limits of pre-requisites) but not just make up a killer combo. Hero is more flexible, so you absolutely need to control which spells are available - if there's no connection between active costs and experience costs, expect players to take the nastiest spells they can

 

Last of all, the system doesn't scale well. By the time the players get some experience under their belts the mage is buying a skills for a few points that gives him a new, lethal spell. The other characters are paying the same points for a +1 with their old (increasingly wimply) attacks. This was a problems in GURPS as well, BTW, though there prices scaled a bit.

 

We've played around with the spells as skills system and you can make it sorta work with the following provisos:

 

You need skill penalties - that way players don't go completely gonzo with high active point powers: they have to buy their skill roll up to have much chance of casting them. This is actually kind of GURPS-like.

The GM needs to decide what spells are available and keep an eye on their power level: letting players make their own is a recipe for disaster.

You need to restrict the number of spells that can be cast in some way - END simply isn't enough to give a GURPS-style feeling.

 

Personally I don't like the system although it is simple and has a certain logic to it. It's hard to make balanced. But if you want it, Killer Shrike has an example up on his website.

 

Cheers, Mark

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Thanks for all the help! Could the END-FP problem be solved by using END Reserves with slower REC? The "high skill, low FP cost" could be solved by chaning the END cost in the same way GURPS does it.

 

I shall take a closer look at the link, but the first impression seems promising.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Thanks for all the help! Could the END-FP problem be solved by using END Reserves with slower REC? The "high skill' date=' low FP cost" could be solved by chaning the END cost in the same way GURPS does it.[/quote']

Changing the cost of END is tricky, because it affects more than just magic; next thing you know, your swordsmen can fight all day without tiring. Using END Reserves is a better option. We tried once tying magic to Long-Term END, but it didn't work well (at least not for us).

 

I have tried using spells as skills for a modern urban fantasy game. It worked okay at first when everyone was fairly low-powered, but the more powerful the characters got the more awkward it became. Eventually we switched back to powers, but kept a "Requires Skill Roll" limitation.

 

Another possibility that might work for you would be to make magic a VPP, where all spells have to be learned. I've seen this work really well at simulating D&D-style "spell books." Use caution: VPPs can be very prone to abuse if you don't regulate the heck out of them. But structured correctly, they might be the ticket.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Mother's tired. Come stick pins tomorrow morning; I'll be more responsive.”

[ghost-angel]

Re: Magic as skills

 

I would use an END Reserve to liimit Spell Casters, with a slow recovery or even an automatic overnight recovery (recovers with a full nights sleep) so they are limited by what they can cast during the day - makes it simple subtraction and powerful mages can be modeled as having larger END Reserves.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Changing the cost of END is tricky, because it affects more than just magic; next thing you know, your swordsmen can fight all day without tiring.

 

I don't think he means changing the cost of the END stat, but altering spells by giving them Reduced or Increased END cost to reflect the GURPS Fatigue cost.

 

I did this when I was playing around with spells from Mythus Magick. It seemed to work fairly well most of the time, but there were times when I couldn't accurately depict the Heka cost because the power's Active Cost was so high, and 1/2 END was too high and 0 END too low. Then, too, there were some high Heka spells with low Active Costs, and they generally ended up costing 1 Real Point after adding in the obscene END multiplier.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Ive made numerous Skill based Magic Systems.

 

Magecraft:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Magecraft.shtml

 

This document groups three similar Familiarity based Systems; a Totemic Shamanism style, a Gemstone style, and a Musical Instrument style:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/validusFamiliaritas.shtml

 

Spellweaving:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Spellweaving.shtml

 

and two variants of Spellweaving, a Hermetic style and a Druidic style:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/spellweavingOrderOfEsow.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/spellweavingDerwydda.shtml

 

 

And finally I just wrote up another one a few days ago that isnt as fully supported w/ Packages that is a combination Skill and Naked Power Advantage system that Im calling Metruvius:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Metruvius.shtml

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Changing the cost of END is tricky' date=' because it affects more than just magic; next thing you know, your swordsmen can fight all day without tiring. Using END Reserves is a better option. We tried once tying magic to Long-Term END, but it didn't work well (at least not for us).[/quote']

I think I need to clarify myself. When I wrote “change the cost” I intended to write “change the END cost multiplier” (just as Captain Obvious assumed).

 

Another possibility that might work for you would be to make magic a VPP' date=' where all spells have to be learned.[/quote']

I don't think a group coming directly from D&D would work that well with VPPs.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic as skills

 

I don't think a group coming directly from D&D would work that well with VPPs.

 

It depends. If you limit the VPP to "known spells", and then give them a list of known spells, it would work pretty well. The length of the list is fairly arbitrary, though. Just choose whatever seems right for the characters in question.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Ive made numerous Skill based Magic Systems.

I really love your site and I recommend it to all people new to the Hero System (most of my friends are fantasy roleplayers). For some reason I had missed that part of it. It seems to be good, but seeing it for the first time today I haven't had the time to read it yet. Anyway, it really looks professional.

 

What are your experience of running Hero based skill magic?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Magic as skills

 

I think I need to clarify myself. When I wrote “change the cost†I intended to write “change the END cost multiplier†(just as Captain Obvious assumed).

Ah, sorry, yes, in hindsight that seems...Obvious. Although increasing the END cost will limit how many spells you can cast in a row (without resting), but not how many you can cast in a day (or an hour or a year or whatever). An END Reserve with a slow REC sounds more like what you're dialing for. Other possibilities might be imposing "x charges per day" limitations, or expendible spell components that take time & effort to prepare.

 

I don't think a group coming directly from D&D would work that well with VPPs.

It depends. If you limit the VPP to "known spells", and then give them a list of known spells, it would work pretty well. The length of the list is fairly arbitrary, though. Just choose whatever seems right for the characters in question.

Right, I should've been more clear. (Good thing CO is here to translate for me today!)

 

All spells have to be learned ahead of time, either by having someone teach it to you, by copying it from their spell book (or equivilent), or by researching it yourself (normally a very time-intensive process). Existing spells can also be modified in the same way. So if you have 30 points in your VPP, you can cast any spells you have learned of up to 30 Active Points. You could even allow players to cast spells that exceed their VPP, but the "excess" power rebounds on them as a Side Effect. The max number of spells players can have in their list might be tied to the size of the VPP (1 spell per 5 AP is what we used), or you could leave it open-ended.

 

We used to call it the Invariable Power Pool. In some ways it works more like a Multipower, but players don't have to pay points for their spells.

 

...but there were times when I couldn't accurately depict the Heka cost because the power's Active Cost was so high' date=' and 1/2 END was too high and 0 END too low. [/quote']

One possibility might be to eliminate the 0 END (+1/2) advantage, but you can take 1/2 END (+1/4) as often as necessary. So a spell that would cost 10 END can be whittled down to 5 END (for +1/4), 2 END (for +1/2), 1 END (for +3/4), or 0 END (for +1). Can get expensive, obviously, but allows you to fine-tune the END cost more precisely.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I'll be in my bunk.â€

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic as skills

 

I really love your site and I recommend it to all people new to the Hero System (most of my friends are fantasy roleplayers). For some reason I had missed that part of it. It seems to be good' date=' but seeing it for the first time today I haven't had the time to read it yet. Anyway, it really looks professional. [/quote']

 

Thanx.

 

EDIT: I should note that there are numerous Magic System docs linked to from this document, along with a good deal of other material:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml?HOME=HOME

 

This document specifically compares the magic Systems according to a variety of criteria:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.shtml

 

What are your experience of running Hero based skill magic?

 

Well, there is no "HERO based" skill magic, so I'll assume you mean "What is your experience with the aforementioned Magic Systems that you have created".

 

It has been good. They all work differently of course, but all of the ones that Ive used in play worked more or less as I expected them to. The ones that have been used in play are:

 

Magecraft

Totemic Shamanism

Derwydda

 

I.e. representatives of each of the three archetypes (Magecraft, Familiaritas, Spellweaving). Metruvius is less than two weeks old, so it has not been used as of yet.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Your guess about what I was after is naturally correct. I’m sorry for the mix-up. When not concentrated I sometimes forget to use English grammar and instead writes in a Swedish-English mix (resulting in stuff like the mumbo jumbo above).

 

Have you had any problems with game balance issues?

 

When I started role-playing in the mid-80s I run games using Drakar och Demoner, which had a skill based magic system. At that time it worked well, but my early campaigns were “sword ‘n sorcery†games so magic was more GM stuff (players choice, not mine), and it therefore never became an issue.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic as skills

 

I havent experienced any game balance issues. I'm generally pretty careful to engineer constraints directly into the Magic Systems I design.

 

If you want to open a dialogue about some specific scenario you are considering, send me an email at killershrike@killershrike.com

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Also, forgot to mention this previously, but all of the Magic Systems I refrenced above have at least one sample character, which you should be able to compare against characters from your setting / campaign and get a feel for where they stand power wise.

 

If there are elements of how a particular Magic System works that arent clear and thus prevent you from using the characters as benchmarks, then just ask me to clarify the point.

[zornwil]

Re: Magic as skills

 

I only mention it because it wasn't discussed here, Fantasy Hero has considerable commentary on skill-based magic. My own thoughts on those have been they'd work well on contemporary urban magic type campaigns, I wasn't thinking of actual fantasy since I don't run that. But it seemed to me the skill-based magic commentary in FH is outstanding and should be studied closely for options.

 

So did you try anything yet with this and how is it going?

[Vondy]

Re: Magic as skills

 

Spells in my game are skills (though you need a convocational attunement talent to cast spells at all). The system is similar to shrikes. I (or the player) writes up the spells seprately (which includes the no skill roll pens advantage) and they use their skill roll to cast the spell. Most spells do cost endurance. Also, some of them have more than one level of power with varied skill level mins to achieve each. Bonus' and pens to the skill roll are situational, and characters can try to ignore spell lims (i.e., cast it faster than the norm) if they are willing to take additional penalties. It works best in games where there is a basic set of core spells after which practitioners write their own (unless you want to spend your life writing spells in hero-e's).