What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

[Willow]

Willow:

H5R says that a CSL must be 5 points or higher to purchase with a limitation, and provides only the OCV bonuses. The text goes on to provide an example of a Scope that provides +4 OCV (with an OAF), for 10 points.

 

Why is this? This seems like a weird break point, since the 5 point skill has a number of restrictions on how it can be used (no DCV or + to Dmg Class).

 

Plus, for only 8 points, that same character could buy four levels in 2 point CSVs and get the same +4 OCV to all weapons of that type. (The character theoretically could choose to go on to describe a "detachable rifle scope" special effect to these skill levels, but NOT take the focus limitation.) So what's going on here?

 

Can anyone give me an unofficial, yet compelling answer?

 

As it stands, I don't see any reason not to let my players buy 2 pt skill levels with Limitations.

 

(Edited to remove a bit of snarkiness.)

[Trained Chicken]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

GM's option. I think the book says you can't put a limitation on anything less than a 5-pt level, but you can change that if you want to.

[Lucius]

What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that those levels are already so cheap, you could easily buy a +10 with something for 20 pts, apply a few limitations to make it really really cheap, and then hit everything you aim at.

 

But I'm sure if you want to do it in your game, you can go ahead - you can always decide after trying it if it works or if it's unbalancing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary works for me

[stan da ork]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

I believe, as Lucius says, it's because those levels are already so cheap.

 

However, what I tend to do is allow players to buy the correct CSL for the effect they want. Then, if the level is less than a 5-Point level, any Limitations on it are automatically reduced to -0 Limitations. So, for example, if you wanted to buy a really accurate gun, you could buy 2-Point levels with the gun, and apply the OAF Limitation as a -0 to the levels. This let's people correctly model the effect they want, while staying within the bounds of the RAW.

 

Note, however, that this means at some point it becomes cheaper to buy the 5-Point level, since the Limitations will actually reduce the cost of those. A 5-Point CSL with a -1 (OAF) costs less than a 3-Point CSL. So if you want to build the gun as a Multipower, it's cheaper to follow the rules in the book.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

 

That's a very reasonable and practical compromise, stan, and well within the spirit of the rules. I'd Rep ya but I'm not allowed yet, so I'll have to owe it.

[Gary]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Digital Hero #34 has an article that shows how it's possible to put limitations on 'lesser' skill levels in a consistent, logical, and balanced manner.

 

The article itself is on Dex, but it's easy to take the CSL part of the article by itself without regard to the Dex part.

[Willow]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Ok, thanks everyone!

[Black Rose]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Just to throw my tuppence into the ring.

 

When it came to situations like this, and I got hit with this a lot when I was converting MA maneuvers to a MP structure, I simply went with a 5 pt level and then limited the heck out of it. I aimed for 2pt OCVs and 3pt DCVs, and 5pt DCVs for Dodges. Worked out pretty well.

 

Though looking back, it would probably make just as much sense to use stan da ork's approach and simply use the levels that ought to be used and add -0 Limitations to fit the feel.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Well, from a mathematics standpoint, the denominator of a fraction can never be zero, so when dealing with a real fraction of a whole (with a floor of 1 in HERO's case), the closer one gets to zero the more problematic the situation gets.

 

Particularly if your end result is being rounded to whole numbers; even more so if you are using some custom rounding rule like Bankers Rounding or more to the topic at hand HERO System rounding.

 

Or to put it into practical terms, a -1/4 lim on a 2 point level rounds back to two, a -1/2 lim costs 1.5 which rounds to 1 via HERO math (in the character's favor), which is the minimum possible cost since there is a floor of one.

 

So basically, you have this odd math driven scenario where the only Limitation value that has any meaning to a 2 pt level is -1/2.

 

 

With a 3 point level a -1/4 lim costs 2 points, as does a -1/2 and a -3/4, and a -1 lim gets the cost down to the floor of 1. So, again an oddness in that the only meaningful lim values for a 3 point level are -1/4 and -1.

 

 

Even at 5 points you still see this, but at least there is a little bit of differentiation. With a 5 point level a -1/4 lim takes the cost down to 4, -1/2 and -3/4 takes it down to 3 points, -1 takes it down to 2 points, and -2 1/4 gets it down to 1 point.

 

 

 

Etc etc etc. So basically, to sum up, there is a mathematic degradation of the HERO fractional system the closer one gets to zero and apparantly Steve decided to arbitrarily pick 5 point levels as the lowest level that still has some impact on a character when lims are applied. Does it make sense? Not really. Its an arbitrary decision, easily ignored if you like.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Well, what Killer Shrike said: you lose a lot of detail when using very small numbers.

 

Also, arguably, levels already have inherent limtiations built in: a 5 point level gives you +1OCV, whereas a 3 or 2 point level gives you +1 OCV FOR CERTAIN ATTACKS. I know it is not that straightforward, and it is daft that you can buy +4 OCV for less than the cost of a sight with a limitiation.

 

Also things are complicated by PSLs which are apparently a special case - 2 and 3 point levels with limtiations already built in.

 

My approach would be to ignore the rule, but to address Lucius' point I'd also (as a GM) be very wary of builds with more than one or two of these levels.

 

NB when building a rifle scope you can buy a 5 point level OAF (-1) and then ONLY FOR A SPECIFIC RIFLE, which has to be worth -1 to -2 so the actual cost would be only 1 or 2 points per level anyway - in effect you are also adding in the specific limtiations that 2 and 3 point levels carry anyway. This might be a better construction?

[Agent X]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

And let's remember, this is the system that wants you to spend 23 points to have a paintball gun.

[Markdoc]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Also, in general 2-3 point levels already have assumed limitations built in. +1 OCV with pistols, for example already has the limitations "only with pistol OAF, -1, cannot be used to add damage, -1/4" built in. I certainly would not allow a 3 point +1 CSL with pistols the limitation "only with pistols" after all. However, a 5 point ranged level could reasonably take that limitation.

 

So I'd really not be up for adding limitations onto something which is already dirt cheap. If you want a unified theory of levels then drop 2 and 3 point levels entirely and start with 5 point levels only - then people can build their 2 point levels as they like.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

And let's remember' date=' this is the system that wants you to spend 23 points to have a paintball gun.[/quote']

How do you figure that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

How do you figure that?

 

You get the gun for 3 points but then find you need to spend 20 points on ammunition

[ghost-angel]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

You get the gun for 3 points but then find you need to spend 20 points on ammunition

Oh ... sounds like every Paint Ball course I've been to then. 5$ to rent the gun, $150 to buy ammo for said gun.

[Agent X]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

How do you figure that?

It's in Gadgets and Gear.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

There's an untapped character concept: PAINTBALL GUY!

[ghost-angel]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

It's in Gadgets and Gear.

Ah, don't own that one. Likely GaG modeled differently than I would.

[xulwolf]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

The biggest difference is that when you create a OAF anybody could pick it up and use it. In heroic level when you don't pay points for equipment, this is a big advantage. From the example given in the rulebook, anybody could pick-up the rifle and get the bonus.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

The biggest difference is that when you create a OAF anybody could pick it up and use it. In heroic level when you don't pay points for equipment' date=' this is a big advantage. From the example given in the rulebook, anybody could pick-up the rifle and get the bonus.[/quote']

Not really.. OAF Personal does not let anybody pick it up and use it, you may remove it from the Characters posession and prevent them from using it - but that does not mean YOU can use it. OAF Universal may be used by anyone who can get ahold of the focus, barring GM intervention.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

The biggest difference is that when you create a OAF anybody could pick it up and use it. In heroic level when you don't pay points for equipment' date=' this is a big advantage. From the example given in the rulebook, anybody could pick-up the rifle and get the bonus.[/quote']

As GA has pointed out, there are both Universal and Personal Foci. Though, the argument could be made that in Heroic settings Foci are Universal by default, with Personal Foci being extremely rare / unusual.

 

 

Regardless, welcome to the boards xulwolf.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

As GA has pointed out' date=' there are both Universal and Personal Foci. Though, the argument could be made that in Heroic settings Foci are Universal by default, with Personal Foci being extremely rare / unusual.[/quote']

True dat. But the first foci that jumped to my mind was a Mages wand or staff, they're almost never portrayed as Universal. So I thought I'd point out there are two kinds.

 

Regardless' date=' welcome to the boards xulwolf.[/quote']

To echo the sentiments, Welcome to the HERO Boards xulwolf. Pull up a keyboard and sit a spell.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Well, from a mathematics standpoint, the denominator of a fraction can never be zero, so when dealing with a real fraction of a whole (with a floor of 1 in HERO's case), the closer one gets to zero the more problematic the situation gets.

 

Or to put it into practical terms, a -1/4 lim on a 2 point level rounds back to two, a -1/2 lim costs 1.5 which rounds to 1 via HERO math (in the character's favor), which is the minimum possible cost since there is a floor of one.

Good points, but your math is a little off: It's not the denominator that's getting close to zero - the more limitations you pile on, that farther it gets - it's the numerator. The problem is the rounding of small numbers close to the chunks that you're rounging to. Which reminds me of... (slight digression)

 

I once had a player who munchkined the rounding rules to great effect. As I reviewed his character sheet, I noticed that almost every power, skill, etc., had Advantages/Limitations on it to give him as much as possible of the .5 that rounds in his favor. For example, he would have a 50-point base power with a +1/4 advantage to bring it to 62.5 - rounds to 62, and then put on a -3/4 limitation to bring it to 35.43 - rounds down again to 35. His character wound up with a total of about 15-20 free points worth of half-points! Like Richard Pryor in Superman III, or the guys in Office Space, or the guys who've done this in real life with bank interest.

 

(back on topic) So I imposed a house rule that power costs must be rounded to the nearest half-point - and you have to pay that half-point! (If you end up with an odd number of half-points, you can buy an extra 1 END or COM.) This is something you can do in your games if you decide to allow limitations on 2- and 3-point skill levels. And to make it simpler, you could say that this rule applies *only* to things that cost X or fewer points, X = 10, 5, or whatever seems right.

 

I don't really use this house rule very much myself, but I do keep it up my sleeve, in case I run into another fraction-munchkin. (The one I referred to has long since moved away.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What's Up With Combat Skill Levels?

 

Good points' date=' but your math is a little off: It's not the denominator that's getting close to zero - the more limitations you pile on, that farther it gets - it's the numerator. [/quote']

Sorry, allow me to restate it.

 

The denominator of a fraction can never be zero. That is a true mathematical fact. However, its not really relevant in this case because the denominator in HERO Power Math is always 1 plus some fraction. Being irrelevant to the topic at hand, I should not have mentioned it.

 

However the rest of the statement was also true but more importantly it was relevant.

 

I once had a player who munchkined the rounding rules to great effect...

 

Yes, Ive demonstrated the rounding flaw and the free points one can gain by exploiting it previously on these boards. Characters built to abuse it can get a definite boost in effectiveness.