Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. > Plus, you are calling death a bad thing in a universe with a proven > afterlife. The only afterlives proven to exist in the Buffyverse are a) stasis traps of phony bliss, hell dimensions, and c) continuing to serve the Powers That Be elsewhere... and that last one required literal divine intervention to exist, and was only seen once. Stasis traps of phony bliss? Was this spelt out in Angel (because I'm pretty sure it wasn't in Buffy [most of Angel has never screened in this country afaik])? (I remember Buffy being in a blissful place between seasons, but I don't think that was a trap - my personal thought is that her vague memories and description of it were because it was good - and so painful to talk about [maybe even blotted partly from her memory to let her stay sane]). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Yes, WW she told Spike she was in Heaven. The Scoobies pulled her from Heaven. It was the precipice of Hubris that Willow began to slide down from. Buffy fought the good fight and sacrificed herself to save her loved ones and the world. She was rewarded. Then she was ripped from bliss and forced to deal with the jarring, dangerous world. Poignant writing in an otherwise "Year of Painful Dreariness" Season. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. ISTR vaguely that they retconned that 'Heaven' later as being just some kind of trap. That was, again vaguely recalling, part of the season 7 retconning called 'Alyson Hannigan is still a cast regular, we have to whitewash Willow somehow.' I could be wrong, though, seeing as how by this point in the narrative I was too busy dealing with the GIANT BLINDING STABBING PAIN IN MY HEAD to focus on the screen, or even watch regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. I don't think they did. I think Heaven for Buffy was real, hence the tragedy. Xander caught on by the end of Season 6, as per his Joss's Alter Ego role and was sickened by his actions. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. *froth* Please don't mention the words 'season 6' and 'Xander' in the same sentence. After the whole Anya thing, I lost all respect for him. Then again, after seasons 6 and 7, I was convinced that the only cast member who didn't deserve a slow, painful death was Spike. Seriously, whoever had the bright idea of making them *ALL* massively unlikeable, all at once, should have been shot. (Except for Tara, who actually *was* shot.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Did you mean not marrying her? Yeah that part Sucked! And of course Spike was so cool they made him part of Angel's crew. As to likable characters the droopy skinned demon was cool. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Maybe Whedon's show philosophy is that Life (and Death) happen. Sometimes good things happen to bad people and vice versa. BTW, Spending 4-5 years as a mouse hardly qualifies as getting off lightly. Keith "Fueling the tangent" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Whedon's philosophy was actually a very simple "Life sucks, then you die, then life keeps sucking even *after* you die." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. ChuckG, I agree wholeheartedly and think that the claims of nanotechnology are vastly overrated. But that won't: A) Keep munchkin players from finding hare brained rationals for even those effects ("They disassemble me here and reassemble me there"), requiring me to: Make a big ol' list of what can and can't be done. I just tell 'em "No." If they argue, I tell 'em "I already told you 'no', dammit." They keep whining, I tell 'em "Take it or leave the table." I can, and have, been persuaded to change my mind by convincing arguments based on common sense, greater knowledge than my own on the relevant topic, reasoning from special effect, or even pure entertainment value. But trying to munch out or hack out on me during chargen -- especially in a cheap way -- brings out my worst side. Basically, there is no substitute for good players, and no rules system can ever be good enough or comprehensive enough to obviate the need for a DM's most important skill -- the ability to tell a munchkin to sit down and shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. I do the same thing to comics' date=' which leaves me pretty much taking the basic concept of superpowers and trying to work out a setting which I can actually believe would exist without requiring a world populated by morons.[/quote'] So, not this world, then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Maybe Whedon's show philosophy is that Life (and Death) happen. Sometimes good things happen to bad people and vice versa. That pretty much Joss's personal philosophy far as I can tell, as from the commetaries I've seen of his on Buffy, Angel and Firefly make no bones that he's an existential atheist. And Season 6 and 7 did suck mightily, which is probably Firefly's fault, as Joss and Tim where so caught up in it that Marti Knox was pretty much in charge of Buffy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Watcher Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. BTW' date=' Spending 4-5 years as a mouse hardly qualifies as getting off lightly.[/quote']Ah, but that was before Amy went majorly selfish and bad. Afterwards she behaved far worse and not much happened to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Basically' date=' there is no substitute for good players, and no rules system can ever be good enough or comprehensive enough to obviate the need for a DM's most important skill -- the ability to tell a munchkin to sit down and shut up.[/quote'] Repped. Unfortunately, I've seen many a gaming group that exists as a subconscious excuse for group ego wanking between the players and the GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. So' date=' not [b']this[/b] world, then... No, I mean that many fictional worlds, including the mainline Marvel and DC worlds, require the collective intellect of the human species to be remarkably lower than it even is in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. No' date=' I mean that many fictional worlds, including the mainline Marvel and DC worlds, require the collective intellect of the human species to be remarkably lower than it even is in real life.[/quote'] I nicknamed that phenomenon "The Sunnydale Effect" -- i.e, the plot contrivance where the PCs are always needed to save the day because the NPC authorities are, one and all, extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely stooooooooooooooopid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inu Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. I nicknamed that phenomenon "The Sunnydale Effect" -- i.e' date=' the plot contrivance where the PCs are always needed to save the day because the NPC authorities are, one and all, extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely stooooooooooooooopid.[/quote'] Also to be noted in detective fiction ("No, we didn't think an autopsy was needed, it's obviously suicide." "But he's been shot in the back. Twice. And poisoned."); fantasy ("Yes, you say you've said The Great Evil returning from Beyond the Dark Mountains. But we haven't seen it ourselves, and it would undermine my position to admit that it exists, so I'll wait until I see it myself before I do anything. And no, I won't leave my Throne Room."); naturally, other horror ("What? Zombies? No, they don't exist, so I'm not going to move. And I won't entertain other ideas, like they might be psycho stalker serial killers, or gangs, so I'm not going to move from my office until they burst through the walls and kill me.); and many, many more. At least I can sorta accept that Joss was doing it as a spoof/homage/genre thing. ; Some writers are just dumb enough that they can't think differently to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Joss took it to the point that even when the authorities *did* believe in vampires and demons, they were *still* hideously incompetent... but my rant on why the Initiative made Zap Brannigan look like Grand Admiral Thrawn will have to wait for another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Joss took it to the point that even when the authorities *did* believe in vampires and demons' date=' they were *still* hideously incompetent... but my rant on why the Initiative made Zap Brannigan look like Grand Admiral Thrawn will have to wait for another day.[/quote'] awww. Chuckg rants are always fun... I feel disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springald Jack Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. I nicknamed that phenomenon "The Sunnydale Effect" -- i.e' date=' the plot contrivance where the PCs are always needed to save the day because the NPC authorities are, one and all, extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely stooooooooooooooopid.[/quote'] See for me this falls under the rubric of things that are ridiculous that I don't mind. It's part of the Heroic Myth that the actions of the small group of courageous individuals is superior to that of official action*. Since most of the time the Plucky Heroes are underequipped/staffed to the authorities part of achieving this effect is stupidity/rigidity on the part of those authorities. *Often true even if the Heroes work for the authorities since then the Heroes often show Blatant Disregard for the Rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Joss took it to the point that even when the authorities *did* believe in vampires and demons' date=' they were *still* hideously incompetent... but my rant on why the Initiative made Zap Brannigan look like Grand Admiral Thrawn will have to wait for another day.[/quote'] I'd like to see that one myself, maybe as a thread all its own? And as far as stupidity in horror movies goes -- that's why I like both Tremors and The Mummy. No one is stupid just for the sake of the plot; some people are dumb (like Melvin in Tremors), but even they at least have a sound survival instinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. awww. Chuckg rants are always fun... I feel disappointed. Well, the last rant was years ago on another message board which since crashed, and I've forgotten lots of the juicy details... and I will like hell watch season 4 again to *remind* myself of them. *ow ow ow*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Re: incompetant authorities. See for me this falls under the rubric of things that are ridiculous that I don't mind. It's part of the Heroic Myth that the actions of the small group of courageous individuals is superior to that of official action*. Since most of the time the Plucky Heroes are underequipped/staffed to the authorities part of achieving this effect is stupidity/rigidity on the part of those authorities. Exactly. It's artificial, sure, and it does bug me sometimes when it's done poorly. But the Individual Heroic Action meta-genre doesn't really work without it. (You can get away without it for a movie, maybe, but sustained over even one season of TV it starts to fall apart.) At least in the Buffy-verse, part of the reason the authorities were of no help was that for years they were actively part of the problem, ie - Mayor Wilkins. bigdamnhero “If I’m wrong you’d best just shoot me now…†“…or, we could talk some more.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. Mayor Wilkins so aptly explains the first three seasons that it's genius. Seasons 4-7, OTOH, have no such explanation. What's worse is that season 4 made it plain that the existence of vampires and whatnot was known on the Federal level(*), and yet, the govt's response was zero at best, and literally worse than doing nothing at worst. I dunno about you, but I like to believe that the existence of supernatural predators routinely kililng job lots of people every night would spur the government to, you know, actually try to kill the damn vampires. Or at the very least put the word out so that the common citizenry knew -- carry yer holy symbols, don't invite people in at night, issue stakes and holy water in squad cars, etc... and please, don't go 'But Wolfram & Hart owned the United States government!' Anybody who is demonstrably incapable of fixing even one statewide election without having to mind control the opponent into a nervous breakdown is demonstrably less in control, crooked politics style, than the Mayor of Chicago is. (After all, here in Chicago, we can fix elections just fine without needing to bust out mind control magic.) (*) The arrival of the "FBI Agents" in season 1 to take the Invisible Girl away was a hint, yes, but up until the Initiative arrived it could still be plausibly argued that while the X-Files Division of the Buffyverse knew *something* was going on, their knowledge as to the full scope of the problem was woefully incomplete. And then along comes the Initiative and its successors, who know *way* more. Then comes the retcon in AtS season 5, where the Initiative has roots going back to World War II and that both the US and German governments were fully aware of the existence of vampires even 50-60 years ago (shown in the flashback in "Why We Fight") and yet, nothing is being done. I mean, damn, it's not like politicians and their families are immune to vampire attack either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisUlf Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. I dunno about you, but I like to believe that the existence of supernatural predators routinely kililng job lots of people every night would spur the government to, you know, actually try to kill the damn vampires. Or at the very least put the word out so that the common citizenry knew -- carry yer holy symbols, don't invite people in at night, issue stakes and holy water in squad cars, etc... and please, don't go 'But Wolfram & Hart owned the United States government!' Anybody who is demonstrably incapable of fixing even one statewide election without having to mind control the opponent into a nervous breakdown is demonstrably less in control, crooked politics style, than the Mayor of Chicago is. (After all, here in Chicago, we can fix elections just fine without needing to bust out mind control magic.) I thought you had occult mayors in Chicago already. I mean, don't the dead vote in every election? And considering the routine incompetence of bureacracy, maybe the majpor governments were trying to control the supernatural situation in the Buffyverse, and that's why everything got so bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind. (After all' date=' here in Chicago, we can fix elections just fine without needing to bust out mind control magic.)[/quote'] I dunno about you' date=' but I like to believe that the existence of supernatural predators routinely kililng job lots of people every night would spur the government to, you know, actually try to kill the damn vampires. Or at the very least put the word out so that the common citizenry knew -- carry yer holy symbols, don't invite people in at night, issue stakes and holy water in squad cars, etc[/quote'] Agreed. That's the point where most writers fall back on the "we don't want to create a panic" cliche, which is one that really does drive me nuts. bigdamnhero “…and that’s when I shot him, your honor.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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