SPD Standards

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I don't see how you can get Spiderman on 350. You can create something that somewhat captures the spirit of the character, but you can't get the actual character.

 

My writeup that I've posted in the Champions forum has him at 772 pts not counting Contacts and Favors. Granted it's easy to shave off a bunch of points by removing skills, lowering the webshooters so that they're not Area Effect Selective, and somewhat lowering the stats, but it's not really going to be possible to get him down to 350 and still do what he routinely does in the comics.

 

You are kidding right?

 

AE Selective webshooters? What ever happened to a simple use of Rapid Fire? And what Skills? The kid's, well a kid. He has a coupla Science Skills, Acrobatics, Stealth and Breakfall and PS: Photography. What else does he have? Really?

 

To clarify, I am starting starting character here. Not the god of all spidermen - red and blue icon he became in later comics. I'm talking the guy played by Toby McGuire in the recent films, the Spidy from the 80s cartoon. The Spiderman that everybody knows and will recognize.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

If that's true than you are not playing your 8 Teams like they should be played. Of course it makes a big difference if they know who they are going up against but assuming they do the hero should lose at least 75% of the time to a properly run 8 Team.

 

Danger Room practice. Hero knows there's an 8 team, 8 team knows there's a hero. In this corner, in that corner... ready FIGHT!

 

In that scenario, the characters I speak of always win.

 

In play, one such character was taken down by two agents with standard rifles, who fired from concealment with surprise while coordinating their attacks.

 

Most of the time, in play, a single hero can take out an 8 Team though. And I am playing the 8 team properly. They start out in the jewelry store with two of them loading sacks full of trinkets, two of them guarding the shopkeeper and customers unlucky enough to be in the store at the time, two others watching the doors, and the other two in the back alley, one at the wheel of the getaway van, the other in the back palming a grenade. In this scenario, the guards are typically down before they know what happened, and the watchmen are down before the others can drop their sacks and grab their guns. The other two either show up late, or do their job: get away.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I've never been sure what to think of the SPD scale that seems pretty standard to the entire gamut of HERO games.

 

Watch two trained martial artists fight, and then try to tell me that they possess no more than a 4 SPD. Remember, 1 Segment is supposed to be 1 second. Are they really waiting 3 seconds between actions?

 

I have. Tell me more than half of the strikes that contact their opponent are meaningful enough to count as a solid attack. If they were, there'd be so much STUN racked up they'd both fall unconscious in seconds, or never fall down at all due to defenses being too high or the damage too low.

 

To me, the martial artists are simply maneuvering each other into possitions in which they may strike more effectively and efficiently, which seems to happen often enough that a 4 SPD is more than appropriate.

[Agent X]

Re: SPD Standards

 

You are kidding right?

 

AE Selective webshooters? What ever happened to a simple use of Rapid Fire? And what Skills? The kid's, well a kid. He has a coupla Science Skills, Acrobatics, Stealth and Breakfall and PS: Photography. What else does he have? Really?

 

To clarify, I am starting starting character here. Not the god of all spidermen - red and blue icon he became in later comics. I'm talking the guy played by Toby McGuire in the recent films, the Spidy from the 80s cartoon. The Spiderman that everybody knows and will recognize.

Apparently you haven't read the first few appearances of Spider-Man or you are pretending they don't exist - I don't know which.

[Just Joe]

Re: SPD Standards

 

First off, I'd say I'm not sure there's one unique best way to deal with this issue. But that said, here's my 2 cents. It seems to me that in traditional superhero comics, just about every super who's not made out to be a joke acts at least as often as very highly trained normals*. So I'd recommend that 4 speed be a virtual minimum for supers in a standard Marvel-type game. Furthermore, plenty of Marvel characters appear to act at least twice as often as trained agent-types, so speeds of 6-8 should not be exceptionally rare. Add to these considerations pragmatic considerations that might lead one to prefer high super-to-normal speed ratios but not too high of a highest-speed-PC-to-lowest-speed-PC ratio, and I would recommend something along the lines of most PC's being in the 4-6 speed range, with perhaps a rare 7, 8, or higher (if the conception fits and the player is capable of making quick decisions and can be counted on not to steal too much of the limelight).

 

*Though in Marvel and other comics there are heroes and villains who supposedly have no super powers but who act A LOT more often than other highly trained "normals". I believe these characters should be modelled with speeds in excess of 4.

[Gary]

Re: SPD Standards

 

You are kidding right?

 

AE Selective webshooters? What ever happened to a simple use of Rapid Fire? And what Skills? The kid's, well a kid. He has a coupla Science Skills, Acrobatics, Stealth and Breakfall and PS: Photography. What else does he have? Really?

 

To clarify, I am starting starting character here. Not the god of all spidermen - red and blue icon he became in later comics. I'm talking the guy played by Toby McGuire in the recent films, the Spidy from the 80s cartoon. The Spiderman that everybody knows and will recognize.

 

 

When Spidey webs up groups of people at a time, he's not at 1/2 DCV based on the source material. Thus Rapid Fire is NA, not to mention Rapid Fire is a potentially abusive maneuver to begin with. Thus Area Effect Selective.

 

Even if you get rid of Area Effect Selective, it's still a big chunk of a 350 pter to spend on the webshooters.

 

As far as skills are concerned, you have to read the source material. Even college age Peter Parker was a wunderkind with an amazing breadth of scientific knowledge. The comic book one invented his Webshooters and webbing on his own, and was able to pull stunts like creating an anti-magnetic inverter to deal with the Vulture's wings. Plus of course his Spider Tracers.

 

Here's my writeup of a mature Spiderman with a lot of experience under his belt. Could you post your version of Spiderman at 350? I'm curious to see exactly where you're going to chop, especially if you keep the webshooters.

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40602

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Apparently you haven't read the first few appearances of Spider-Man or you are pretending they don't exist - I don't know which.

 

Everybody can pick their own Spiderman I suppose. No I haven't read them, I've only read bits and pieces of the Amazing Spiderman, watched the cartoon and seen the movies. While I know that's not everything Spiderman, I feel it's an accurate representation of who and what the character is.

 

 

So basically, you're saying that in the first few appearances of Spiderman, he went Death Blossom with the webshooters while moving and maintaining full defensive capability on a regular enough basis to warrent an AE Selective ability? Now I haven't read a lot of the comics, but I never saw anything like this or even anything that would even inspire it. I'm not saying it wasn't there, I'm just doubting.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

When Spidey webs up groups of people at a time' date=' he's not at 1/2 DCV based on the source material. Thus Rapid Fire is NA, not to mention Rapid Fire is a potentially abusive maneuver to begin with. Thus Area Effect Selective.[/quote']

As I said in the other post, I've never seen such activity in Spidy. Yeah, I've seen in web up a group of people, but whenever he tried it while someone was shooting at him, he got hit.

 

Even if you get rid of Area Effect Selective, it's still a big chunk of a 350 pter to spend on the webshooters.

 

As far as skills are concerned, you have to read the source material. Even college age Peter Parker was a wunderkind with an amazing breadth of scientific knowledge. The comic book one invented his Webshooters and webbing on his own, and was able to pull stunts like creating an anti-magnetic inverter to deal with the Vulture's wings. Plus of course his Spider Tracers.

 

Here's my writeup of a mature Spiderman with a lot of experience under his belt. Could you post your version of Spiderman at 350? I'm curious to see exactly where you're going to chop, especially if you keep the webshooters.

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40602

 

I'll have to dig him up. I've got him on Metacrator, which I have on another computer. Not much point in post him though after looking at your write up. By comparison my version is a butcherd neutered spiderbaby which will cause hystirical laughter in your eyes. Of course, I didn't use Marvel's published stats. By the time Marvel had an RPG, Spidy was no longer a "starting" character.

 

I do what to stress that though. It seems to be either ignored or completely overlooked. I'm talking about STARTING characters. Not the "first appearance just here to impress everybody in some other comic" version or the "been around for ever and is now one of the all time heroic icons of the comic age" version either. I'm talking starting version. New guy. Just his powers not too long ago and still figuring them out. Might be stronger then he thinks, or even faster, but doesn't know it yet and hasn't pushed himself that far. Might even be able to entangle a crowd of thugs mixed in with a bunch of innocents he never touches, while swinging on a line, getting shot at by 5 snipers all while blindfolded, but he's never tried and isn't likely to, and if he does he's gonna fail because he still needs a lot of practice. That's the version I'm talking about, and I wish people would stop pretending there is no such version.

[Gary]

Re: SPD Standards

 

As I said in the other post, I've never seen such activity in Spidy. Yeah, I've seen in web up a group of people, but whenever he tried it while someone was shooting at him, he got hit.

 

 

 

I'll have to dig him up. I've got him on Metacrator, which I have on another computer. Not much point in post him though after looking at your write up. By comparison my version is a butcherd neutered spiderbaby which will cause hystirical laughter in your eyes. Of course, I didn't use Marvel's published stats. By the time Marvel had an RPG, Spidy was no longer a "starting" character.

 

I do what to stress that though. It seems to be either ignored or completely overlooked. I'm talking about STARTING characters. Not the "first appearance just here to impress everybody in some other comic" version or the "been around for ever and is now one of the all time heroic icons of the comic age" version either. I'm talking starting version. New guy. Just his powers not too long ago and still figuring them out. Might be stronger then he thinks, or even faster, but doesn't know it yet and hasn't pushed himself that far. Might even be able to entangle a crowd of thugs mixed in with a bunch of innocents he never touches, while swinging on a line, getting shot at by 5 snipers all while blindfolded, but he's never tried and isn't likely to, and if he does he's gonna fail because he still needs a lot of practice. That's the version I'm talking about, and I wish people would stop pretending there is no such version.

 

 

Even chopping down greatly and getting rid of Area Effect Selective, I still have the movie Spiderman at 399 pts. Frankly, I think I'm still shortchanging him at this point level. I certainly can't see chopping 49 more points.

 

Value		Characteristic  Cost
40	Str	30
26	Dex	48
23	Con	26
15	Body	10
23	Int	13
15	Ego	10
15	Pre	5
14	Com	2
20	PD	12
14	ED	9
6	SPD	24
13	Rec	0
46	End	0
47	Stun	0
	189

Cost	Power	

10	Clinging	
12	+3 DCV Must Make Spider Sense Roll (-1/4)	
6	+6" Leaping	
6	+3" Running	
2	+2" Swimming	
1	Diminished Breathing 1 End/Turn	
1	Diminished Sleep 8 Hours/Week	

62	Multipower 62 pts	
6	5 Def 5d6 Entangle 1/2 End	
6	10d6 Flash 1/2 End	
3	30" Swinging 0 End (+1/2)	
3	6" Stretching Always Direct (-1/4) No Velocity Damage (-1/4) 0 End	

118	Total Powers Cost	

Cost	Skill	

3	Acrobatics 14-	
3	Breakfall 14-	
2	CK New York City 11-	
3	Computer Programming 14-	
3	Contortionist 14-	
5	Cramming	
3	Electronics 14-	
3	Inventor 14-	
3	Mechanics 14-	
3	Systems Operation 14-	
2	PS Photographer 11-	

3	Scientist	
2	Biochemistry 14-	
2	Chemistry 14-	
2	Mathematics 14-	
2	Nuclear Physics 14-	
2	Organic Chemistry 14-	
2	Physics 14-	
2	Research 14-	

6	3/3 Combat Luck	

Spider Sense	
36	Danger Sense Immediate Vicinity All Attacks 17-	

92	Skills and Talents Cost	

399	Total Character Cost	

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Even chopping down greatly and getting rid of Area Effect Selective' date=' I still have the movie Spiderman at 399 pts. Frankly, I think I'm still shortchanging him at this point level. I certainly can't see chopping 49 more points.[/quote']

Not far from my write-up, though I can't recall the details (don't remember if I know I gave Spidy a STR somewhere between 30 and 45 for instance).

 

To modifiy your example here, I'd start by making the Webshooters an IIF, drop the Flash and add a Webshooter Tricks Power Skill for things like Web In You Eye and Web Gags. I'd roll all of his Sciences into basic Chemistry, Mathmatics and Physics (no need to seperate them for most supers games anyway, particularly Silver Age). I might drop Inventor, but prefer to keep it (might make it a Familiarity). For my specific campaign world, I'd also drop SPD to 5, and might drop DEX to 23 or 24, but prefer to keep it at 26.

 

That probably doesn't shave enough off, but it's a start. If not, I'd reduce the MP to a 50 point reserve.

 

It's a very nice write-up though. Complete without being anal-retentive about every nit-picky detail.

[Kristopher]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I have. Tell me more than half of the strikes that contact their opponent are meaningful enough to count as a solid attack. If they were, there'd be so much STUN racked up they'd both fall unconscious in seconds, or never fall down at all due to defenses being too high or the damage too low.

 

To me, the martial artists are simply maneuvering each other into possitions in which they may strike more effectively and efficiently, which seems to happen often enough that a 4 SPD is more than appropriate.

 

HERO doesn't do "phantom actions", though...it represents everything that happens in the fight.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: SPD Standards

 

HERO doesn't do "phantom actions"' date=' though...it represents everything that happens in the fight.[/quote']

 

Don't have the book in front of me right now but I believe that USPD has a writeup for a super speed punch (+X dice of HA) with a special effect defined as multiple punches but the HA is NOT built with the Autofire advantage which is what 'multiple punches' suggests. It sounds like a "phantom action" by your definition but it is really just a way to speed up combat since Autofire would just introduce another form of stun-lottery based on the DCV of the target with no other real benefit.

[Agent X]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Everybody can pick their own Spiderman I suppose. No I haven't read them, I've only read bits and pieces of the Amazing Spiderman, watched the cartoon and seen the movies. While I know that's not everything Spiderman, I feel it's an accurate representation of who and what the character is.

 

 

So basically, you're saying that in the first few appearances of Spiderman, he went Death Blossom with the webshooters while moving and maintaining full defensive capability on a regular enough basis to warrent an AE Selective ability? Now I haven't read a lot of the comics, but I never saw anything like this or even anything that would even inspire it. I'm not saying it wasn't there, I'm just doubting.

No, that's not what I'm saying but you do get credit for making a smart aleck response if that is what you were hoping for.

[Manic Typist]

Re: SPD Standards

 

On the martial artist notes and the whole "pausing" for 3 seconds........ I would recommend that you look at the time between phases as being used to accomplish what you desire.

 

For instance, on segment 3 I attack you. So, that means on segments 1, 2, and 3 I am doing everything necessary to attack you. I am stepping forward, lining up, and launching the shot. On segment 6, I sweep at you. On 4 I punch, on 5 I punch, and on 6 I punch.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

HERO doesn't do "phantom actions"' date=' though...it represents everything that happens in the fight.[/quote']

 

Says who?

 

As far as I'm concerned, half a dozen punches and blocking moves is an applicable SFX of a Martial Strike.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

No' date=' that's not what I'm saying but you do get credit for making a smart aleck response if that is what you were hoping for.[/quote']

Well, I knew I was making a smart aleck remark, but the question I asked was serious. Ultimately, I'm wondering what Spidy as actually done, and where if it matters, that leads some players into believing he needs an AE Selective attack. I don't really have the resources to run out and collect 20 years of back issues and they haven't put it in a trade paperpack that I know of.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Says who?

 

As far as I'm concerned, half a dozen punches and blocking moves is an applicable SFX of a Martial Strike.

Exactly

For that matter, a series of feints and weak probing shots to open up your opponents defense is one of the better SFX for "I'm putting all my levels into OCV"

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Well' date=' I knew I was making a smart aleck remark, but the question I asked was serious. Ultimately, I'm wondering what Spidy as actually done, and where if it matters, that leads some players into believing he needs an AE Selective attack. I don't really have the resources to run out and collect 20 years of back issues and they haven't put it in a trade paperpack that I know of.[/quote']

For my part, I am admittedly leinent when it comes to multiple attack rules, but I'd probably go ahead and give Spidey Rapid Attack, Ranged, and Two Weapon fighting, then buy a single webslinger with the other using the +5 Equipment doubling rule, and a couple of DCV levels to offset the -2 dcv for 2 weapon fighting. Thus giving him the ability to get 2 shots off with his webslingers in a 1/2 phase without any penalty. Also allowing him a MPA with the Slinger MP's, so he could pull off some of his combined effect tricks, like webbing someone up and blinding them at the same time.

I think his "I keep hitting till you fall down" flurry of puches is probably a pretty normal sweep... It seems to usually involve him really setting to and deciding to hammer someone, usually when they are already stunned or prone. It seems to be a last ditch move most of the times I recall seeing him do it. With his raw dex OCV plus levels, he should be able to squeeze out a good 3 or 4 attacks against a lower Dex opponent who is already at 1/2 dcv.

While on the topic, I tend to think of him with around a 40 str, but with about 10 points of Exta Push STR, x10 End cost, NCC (-1). That lets him occasionally bust into full on Brick STR when its a real crisis, or when he's really panicked

[Agent X]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Well' date=' I knew I was making a smart aleck remark, but the question I asked was serious. Ultimately, I'm wondering what Spidy as actually done, and where if it matters, that leads some players into believing he needs an AE Selective attack. I don't really have the resources to run out and collect 20 years of back issues and they haven't put it in a trade paperpack that I know of.[/quote'] Check out The Essential Spider-Man vol. 1 and you can read the first few years of his stories in Amazing Fantasy and Amazing Spider-Man.

 

Peter Parker is a genius from the beginning. He also can sew.

He's the guy who comes up with web-shooters and the webbing that gets shot. Why? Because he sees a need for them... and he's in high school.

 

He's also gifted in biology, enough to help out Dr. Connors once in a while.

 

He's also mature enough to help pay the bills as a photographer.

 

And very early on, he's demonstrated the ability to run circles around the Fantastic Four if not actually defeat them.

 

That's what I can think of without looking anything up.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I'd be willing to bet many incidents of Spidey webbing multiple targets can be handled just fine with Spreading. The thugs are next to each other more often than not anyhow. That's how I'd do it.

 

Since we seem to be talking about his STR too (bless thread derails), I'll say that one way I saved some points on my Spider-Man is 30 STR compared to your 40, Gary. Plus some HA. Now I am fully aware that his lifting is 10 tons by the officials, so don't point it out to me. I've read my share of Spider-Man comics Silver Age and current, too, and somehow I just don't believe 10 tons. As it doesn't fit my conception of Spider-Man, it's not in my writeup. I always figured he did that Silver Age thing where he lifted the wreckage of Doc Ock's undersea base through an X-Treme Push of more than 10 points, given how completely exhausted he was after escaping, or maybe the wreckage didn't weigh more than 40 STR could lift to begin with.

 

Perhaps I should join the more appropriate thread you've got in Champions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Check out The Essential Spider-Man vol. 1 and you can read the first few years of his stories in Amazing Fantasy and Amazing Spider-Man.

Thanks! I have to check that out when I can get to looking for a copy.

 

Peter Parker is a genius from the beginning. He also can sew.

He's the guy who comes up with web-shooters and the webbing that gets shot. Why? Because he sees a need for them... and he's in high school.

 

He's also gifted in biology, enough to help out Dr. Connors once in a while.

 

He's also mature enough to help pay the bills as a photographer.

 

And very early on, he's demonstrated the ability to run circles around the Fantastic Four if not actually defeat them.

 

That's what I can think of without looking anything up.

 

Not doubting any of this, just doubting/questioning the need to spend so many points on what is effectively background and "explination" abilities. I'll keep quieter on the subject now that I have the opportunity to read more than a few disconnected issues or watch movies... at least until I'm done reading.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I'd be willing to bet many incidents of Spidey webbing multiple targets can be handled just fine with Spreading. The thugs are next to each other more often than not anyhow. That's how I'd do it.

 

Spreading! That's it! No special rules, no questionable MPAs or Rapid Attack... and he can half move and maintain his full DCV while doing it. And I believe the rules even say specifically that you can Spread an Entangle (or at least simply state you can spread any ranged attack).

 

Okay... now I'll keep quiet on the subejct.

[Gary]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I'd be willing to bet many incidents of Spidey webbing multiple targets can be handled just fine with Spreading. The thugs are next to each other more often than not anyhow. That's how I'd do it.

 

Since we seem to be talking about his STR too (bless thread derails), I'll say that one way I saved some points on my Spider-Man is 30 STR compared to your 40, Gary. Plus some HA. Now I am fully aware that his lifting is 10 tons by the officials, so don't point it out to me. I've read my share of Spider-Man comics Silver Age and current, too, and somehow I just don't believe 10 tons. As it doesn't fit my conception of Spider-Man, it's not in my writeup. I always figured he did that Silver Age thing where he lifted the wreckage of Doc Ock's undersea base through an X-Treme Push of more than 10 points, given how completely exhausted he was after escaping, or maybe the wreckage didn't weigh more than 40 STR could lift to begin with.

 

Perhaps I should join the more appropriate thread you've got in Champions.

 

 

30 Str is only 1.6 tons, the weight of a small car, and Spiderman can routinely lift that easily over his head. He can even throw cars if he wanted to. That's too little for what he routinely does. So a 40 Str seems appropriate to me, and 50 Str for a mature Spidey with experience. That's because Champions Str is defined as what you can barely get off the ground and stagger and thus would be greater than Marvel Str which is what you can lift over your head.

 

As for Spreading, Spidey definitely shoots out more fluid when he webs multiple people or covers an area with his webbing. There seems to be absolutely no decrease in the Body of his Entangle when he webs multiple things compared to one thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD Standards

 

As for Spreading' date=' Spidey definitely shoots out more fluid when he webs multiple people or covers an area with his webbing. There seems to be absolutely no decrease in the Body of his Entangle when he webs multiple things compared to one thing.[/quote']

 

So what? Does he have Charges? Not based on how infrequently he runs out of web fluid. So I just chalk that up to sfx.

 

Given how routinely he spreads, maybe he has a few extra dice Only for Spreading (at least as he gains xp).

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

As for Spreading, Spidey definitely shoots out more fluid when he webs multiple people or covers an area with his webbing. There seems to be absolutely no decrease in the Body of his Entangle when he webs multiple things compared to one thing.

 

Or no decrease in the DEF of the Entangle, which isn't affected by spreading.