SPD Standards

[SuperKlaus]

I've been brewing up a bunch of Marvel heroes on 350 points lately. Spider-Man was my natural first choice but I've since made Captain America, the Hulk (Professor Hulk, mind you), and Cyclops with a couple others on the way. One thing I noticed very quickly about Spider-Man was that I was mighty tight for points; I've got what I'll consider a satisfactory writeup now but he's awfully sparse for Skills, could stand some more BODY and defenses, and so on. He's also SPD 7...and that's costing 28 points (Quickly! His DEX?). I realized I was doing this because I was bent on Spidey having two more SPD than the typical super so that he could freely Dodge attacks, as he is wont to do. But hey, why is my typical super's SPD 5? A comment I read in an old thread actually put classic Spidey at SPD 4 because he'd still be mighty fast compared to most normals. Could I roll back my SPD scores a whole point for supers, freeing 10 precious points for other things?

 

Only things that this would change off the top of my head:

1) Haymakers are better now because it's slightly less likely your target will get a Phase to move away (I'm using a houserule SPD system that randomizes Phases, by the way).

2) SPD points get a little more precious: 7 is 40% more than 5 (current anybody) and 75% more than 4 (current Hulk) but 6 is 50% more than 4 (possible anybody) and full on double 3 (possible Hulk).

3) Supers would be that much worse at dealing with hordes of mooks, I guess, because the mooks' 2 or 3 SPD stays the same.

 

Do I want to do this and possibly make SPD still more important? How do you guys scale SPD in your games?

[Agent X]

Re: SPD Standards

 

You can build a version of Spider-Man that tries to get the spirit of the character on 350 points but you won't be building a character that comes very close to what Spider-Man can actually do.

 

Spider-Man's speed needs to be compared to other supers, not simply normals.

[massey]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I would not build established supers on 350 points. After one adventure, the PCs will all be "tougher" than the established characters. If Spider-Man is 350, then the players will be higher points than him as soon as you assign them experience points. Also, established characters usually have lots of extras (Batman has his Batcave, Spider-Man has his spider-tracers, Superman has his Fortress of Solitude) that will take up lots of points. You can do a bare-bones writeup of a character, but do not be surprised when your 350 point Spider-Man finds himself to be too weak to effectively compete with a character like Ankylosaur.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Instead of upping his speed so he could dodge a lot, try buying DCV combat skill levels instead. It has the same effect in the long run right? Sure, he's not gonna be punching as fast, but the idea that he's dodging around and hard to hit will be there.

[Edsel]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Our 4th Edition home write-up of Spider man came in at 660 points. Perhaps he was once as low as 350 points but only during his first few weeks, when he was unsure of his powers and had built no web-shooters.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD Standards

 

On the possibility of lowering SPD across the board, it also has an impact on END (you spend it slower, so you can get away with less END, REC and reduced END). It also makes RC more powerful since you take less hits before getting a recovery.

 

On Spidey, this is a Super who has grown a lot over the years, Remember that a geriatric in a wingsuit and a pudgy scientist with artificial arms were both serious, almost unbeatable, threats in his early career.

[Black Rose]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Something to consider (since I'm considering it as I type this) is just how fast people are. Think of it like this....

 

Speed 2 -- normal people; i.e., virtually everybody you know. They may be able to do some specific things fast, but their Speed determines how fast they do everything. If you've got someone who's good (i.e., quick) at something, that's probably just skill. Think about it, you know what you're doing, so you know the quickest way to do it, and you've done it a lot, which looks very fast to someone who has to plot their actions as they go.

 

Speed 3 -- highly trained physical types; i.e., athletes, Special Forces, etc. These are people who have trained themselves to a level of skill, not only in tasks but in reaction time, that allows them to act 150% as fast as you do. This means, for something you haven't specifically practiced, they can do it three times for every two times you do it. That's actually pretty darn impressive, you know.

 

Speed 4 -- freaky highly-trained physical types; some martial artists, uber-trained SF types, etc. Chances are you will probably never meet one of these people in your life... ever. This person is in such good shape and so well-trained that he can move twice as fast as you. Think about it, this guy can not only stop any action you can make, but then rub it in your face by doing the action himself after he stops you. People that move this fast should be giving off PRE Attacks every time they go all out.

 

Speed 5 -- inhuman types. You have never met someone this fast, ever. This person can make a fully-trained, in-his-prime athlete look like the chubby kid you picked last for softball, at anything. Most people would be standing slack-jawed at the sight of this guy going full out. If you allow for base Movement, this guy can run literal circles around a normal person who's going full out. The only way to even begin to hold your own against someone this fast would be to challenge him to something you are intimately familiar with and which he knows nothing about.

 

Speed 6 -- just worse than Speed 5. At this point normals can't even begin to keep up with him. This is a full-on Speedster territory, and they treat Special Forces the same way Speed 4s treat normals, only worse. At this level, even if you only have a 10 INT, you think so much faster (if not deeper) than normals that just listening to the typical chatter at a mall could drive you to homicide.

 

Speed 7 and up -- do I need to go on about how disgustingly beyond you these people are? You really can't contribute to their lives in any way that wouldn't simply frustrate them. At the risk of sounding un-PC, everyone around someone with a Speed this high must seem to be barely Functionally Retarded; yes, I know the term is Developmentally Disabled, but trust me, to them, you're retarded. There is simply no way you could ever keep up with them, and the entire world is built to handle your range of ability. I honestly wonder if people with Speeds this fast wouldn't become villians out of sheer frustration.

 

To better illustrate my point, remember those bygone days before cable and DSL, much less T1 connections? Have you erev tried to use on of those connections after you traded up? Remember the slowly mounting frustration as you realised that, in the time it took the computer to rez up a screen you could have finished reading it and the one after it if you were using your usual connection? That's their entire lives. From their perspective, everyone and everything is moving one-third as fast as it should.

 

While I can't link to Seanbaby.com from here (not work safe), I'd recommend you go and read his Super Friends rant about the Flash. It gives some of the best descriptions of a superfast person dealing with normals I can think of.

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD Standards

 

While I think these are excellent descriptions, BR, I think they go a bit too far in one aspect - I don't think SPD is strictly a representative description of thinking speed (although I agree that factors into it). I think it also includes factors like trained reaction speed and reflexes. However, I think any SPD above 6 is truly superhuman and very few people have ever reached SPDs 5 or 6 in the real world. (I could accept for the sake of argument that Bruce Lee might qualify as a SPD 5, I can't think of a real person I'd rate as a SPD 6.)

 

However, since Champions/Hero is a game designed to reflect comics and action fiction, I think within those categories there will be SPD 6's out there on a fairly regular basis; for example Captain America and Li Mu Bai from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

[Rapier]

Re: SPD Standards

 

You are going to find that it can be very difficult to draw up most published supers on any kind of point schedule.

 

The first problem you are going to have is settling on a specific group of powers. It is so common for one writer to fundamentally change the aspect of the character to suit their whim. In some versions Spidey can only pick up a bus, in others a battleship holds no challenge. This seems to happen a lot when the writer wonders "Who would win if SpiderMan fought Galactus?" Since he wants SpiderMan to win, he gets a major boost to his powers. Bleh.

 

The second problem you are going to run into is that the writers were never sticking to any sort of point control. They just hand out whatever powers are needed. It is clear from the start that not all heroes are built on the same number of points.

 

Thirdly is that a number of these characters have been around a LOOOOOONG time and have earned quite a chunk of experience.

 

Your best bet is to simply build the characters as accurately as possible and be damned the points!

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Do I want to do this and possibly make SPD still more important? How do you guys scale SPD in your games?

 

In my games I impose an implied Normal Characteristic Maxima. There really is none, as anyone can buy their Characteristics to whatever level their concept calls for, but its assumed that unless the character has a power that says otherwise, they are normal humans in every respect. Normal humans in a Heroic level game anyway. The average SPD in my games is just over 4, but not quite 5. Characters like Cyclops will have a SPD of 4. The Hulk would have a 3, but might have a power that raises it to 4 when he's really angry. Captain America could have a 4 or a 5, but likely a 4. Spiderman would have a 5, but possibly a 6, but I'd lead heavily to 5.

 

The points you make about the effect his has on a game are all accurate, but the remark about the mooks is a bit off. One of the things players keep forgetting are all of those other things they can do besides just half move and shoot. They can spread ranged attacks, or Rapid Fire, to hit several targets. One shot to the ceiling or a support beam could take out a room full of mooks. The lack of overpowering SPD doesn't make mooks more dangerous to the PCs, it merely encourages them to think more creatively in dealing with them.

 

In the game I currently run, all the characters are built around 400 points (350 plus XP) and average their SPDs just above 4 but not quite 5 (lowest is 3, highest is 6). Each character can single-handedly take on and win against a VIPER 8-Team, and most of them can do it without breaking a sweat and in under a Turn.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Oh, and speficically speaking of Spiderman, I've got an older writeup of him somewhere that puts him around 350 points. He has a SPD of 5 and an "autododge" power (Defense Maneuver I-IV plus +3 DCV levels and some Combat Luck) to simulate his always dodging routine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Long ago I started building superheroes with 3 and 4 speed as a standard, with 5+ only for cases where they were supposed to have powers that made them fast (superspeed, ultra agility or whatever).

 

Makes normal heroes more powerful (slightly) in that those 10-20 points not spend on speed get spent elsewhere AND makes (imo) combats easier to run. Also akes high speed ore of a superpower, as it is a more significant increase on the 'norm'.

 

I think it is a good idea.

[Sean Waters]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Oh and I think that Spidey is a very efficient character at 350 points. the acrobatic brick is an arhetype that Hero character building rules reward.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Thanks a lot for the input about SPD, guys. I think I just might scale it back instead of staying at 5 standard just because that seems to be how the Champs Universe does it.

 

Oh and I think that Spidey is a very efficient character at 350 points. the acrobatic brick is an arhetype that Hero character building rules reward.

 

And by the way, thank you! Man, what's up with all the replies of "don't even try?" I opened by saying I consider my build "satisfactory," so nyah, y'all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD Standards

 

And by the way, thank you! Man, what's up with all the replies of "don't even try?" I opened by saying I consider my build "satisfactory," so nyah, y'all.

 

Many Hero System gamers like to "be true" to certain characters by moddling everything they see in the comics as a superpower and because the character does it so well, it must be at a certain level because we all know how many points the mooks are built on. Done this way, Aquaman can be built on around 500 points (and still be a weakling among the supertitans of Superman and Batman, both built on 1,500 points or so).

 

Personally, I like to think my starting, 350 character can not only beat up Aquaman, but a quick look at how many points each is built on makes it obvious. I've got a "starting" Superman and Batman each at 350, so I see no reason to have a starting Spiderman at the same.

[Gary]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I don't see how you can get Spiderman on 350. You can create something that somewhat captures the spirit of the character, but you can't get the actual character.

 

My writeup that I've posted in the Champions forum has him at 772 pts not counting Contacts and Favors. Granted it's easy to shave off a bunch of points by removing skills, lowering the webshooters so that they're not Area Effect Selective, and somewhat lowering the stats, but it's not really going to be possible to get him down to 350 and still do what he routinely does in the comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I don't see how you can get Spiderman on 350. You can create something that somewhat captures the spirit of the character, but you can't get the actual character.

 

My writeup that I've posted in the Champions forum has him at 772 pts not counting Contacts and Favors. Granted it's easy to shave off a bunch of points by removing skills, lowering the webshooters so that they're not Area Effect Selective, and somewhat lowering the stats, but it's not really going to be possible to get him down to 350 and still do what he routinely does in the comics.

 

What if we're building him at issue #12 of Spiderman (ie a relatively inexperienced character, consistent with a 350 point character)? A lot of things he now does routinely weren't in his repertoire at that time.

[Gary]

Re: SPD Standards

 

What if we're building him at issue #12 of Spiderman (ie a relatively inexperienced character' date=' consistent with a 350 point character)? A lot of things he now does routinely weren't in his repertoire at that time.[/quote']

 

 

You'd have to get rid of his Webshooters and Spidey Tracers to get him to 350. And chop off a lot of skills.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: SPD Standards

 

In my games I impose an implied Normal Characteristic Maxima. There really is none, as anyone can buy their Characteristics to whatever level their concept calls for, but its assumed that unless the character has a power that says otherwise, they are normal humans in every respect. Normal humans in a Heroic level game anyway. The average SPD in my games is just over 4, but not quite 5. Characters like Cyclops will have a SPD of 4. The Hulk would have a 3, but might have a power that raises it to 4 when he's really angry. Captain America could have a 4 or a 5, but likely a 4. Spiderman would have a 5, but possibly a 6, but I'd lead heavily to 5.

 

The points you make about the effect his has on a game are all accurate, but the remark about the mooks is a bit off. One of the things players keep forgetting are all of those other things they can do besides just half move and shoot. They can spread ranged attacks, or Rapid Fire, to hit several targets. One shot to the ceiling or a support beam could take out a room full of mooks. The lack of overpowering SPD doesn't make mooks more dangerous to the PCs, it merely encourages them to think more creatively in dealing with them.

 

In the game I currently run, all the characters are built around 400 points (350 plus XP) and average their SPDs just above 4 but not quite 5 (lowest is 3, highest is 6). Each character can single-handedly take on and win against a VIPER 8-Team, and most of them can do it without breaking a sweat and in under a Turn.

 

If that's true than you are not playing your 8 Teams like they should be played. Of course it makes a big difference if they know who they are going up against but assuming they do the hero should lose at least 75% of the time to a properly run 8 Team.

[Rick]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Yeah I'm a fan of scaling back speeds. I like starting Thing and Hulk at 3...so as has been said, spidey can easily be 5-6.

[Kristopher]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I've never been sure what to think of the SPD scale that seems pretty standard to the entire gamut of HERO games.

 

Watch two trained martial artists fight, and then try to tell me that they possess no more than a 4 SPD. Remember, 1 Segment is supposed to be 1 second. Are they really waiting 3 seconds between actions?

[Kristopher]

Re: SPD Standards

 

If that's true than you are not playing your 8 Teams like they should be played. Of course it makes a big difference if they know who they are going up against but assuming they do the hero should lose at least 75% of the time to a properly run 8 Team.

 

Even at 350-400 points, that depends a lot on the superhero and how he fights them. Divide and conquer.

[Victim]

Re: SPD Standards

 

I've never been sure what to think of the SPD scale that seems pretty standard to the entire gamut of HERO games.

 

Watch two trained martial artists fight, and then try to tell me that they possess no more than a 4 SPD. Remember, 1 Segment is supposed to be 1 second. Are they really waiting 3 seconds between actions?

 

Watch two chumps fight and tell me if they wait 6 seconds between actions. SPD and phases seems like a bad way to track time, but a fairly good way to track relative actions.

[Zeropoint]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Exactly. I appreciate the SPD chart as a great way to account for the differences between slow people and quick people, and don't worry too much about whether it's a good second-for-second representation of actual abilities. It's a game, and it's a really good mechanic.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: SPD Standards

 

Exactly. I appreciate the SPD chart as a great way to account for the differences between slow people and quick people' date=' and don't worry too much about whether it's a good second-for-second representation of actual abilities. It's a game, and it's a really good mechanic.[/quote']

 

 

Exactly-exactly! Coming from GURPS, where combat is posted second by second, HERO's SPD chart does an incredible job of representing the differences between slow and fast.

 

In GURPS, everybody goes once per second, but High-DEX people go "sooner" in that second (basically).

 

HERO really captures the essence of faster people not just being able to act "sooner", but also more often.

 

Secondly, while second-by-second actions seem really cool and accurate, you are suddenly bouncing up against another wall of unreality. In reality, in a fight that lasts 5 minutes, you don't have the opportunity to throw 300 punches and dodge 300 returning strikes, really. Since your character CAN attack & dodge/parry every second, it becomes really tempting to do so, rather than circling around, looking for openings, trash-talking, or anything else. This isn't totally the fault of the system, but since there's no real mechanism for short-term fatigue (seconds, rather than minutes), there's no real reason for not going ahead under full steam in combat.