Learning Curve?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I agree with you Prestidigitator, at least on principle. The first system/rule set any gamer learns is usually the easiest for them. It's similar to learning languages. English is a hard language to learn. It's inconsistant, contradictive, redundant and so riduculously complex only English can be used to describe it. Yet few people born in an English speaking country have troble learning it, and for them it's no more difficult that it is for people born in Spanish speaking countries to learn Spanish (or fill in your language of choice). Of course, I only use English because it's my first language. I'm not saying the Hero System is as complex as English. Nothing is as complex as the English language.

 

In fact, new slogan...

 

Hero System 5th Edition, it's easier to learn than the English Language.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Er . . .

 

Yet few people born in an English speaking country have troble learning it

I'm sorry, but I really have to contradict this point. It's easy to learn to speak as a native speaker, and one can get by well enough, but, having been an internet user for almost a decade, now, I have to point out that a lot of native speakers have trouble speaking and writing CORRECTLY.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Er . . .

 

 

I'm sorry, but I really have to contradict this point. It's easy to learn to speak as a native speaker, and one can get by well enough, but, having been an internet user for almost a decade, now, I have to point out that too a lot of native speakers have trouble speaking and writing CORRECTLY.

 

I ain't sayin' folks arn't usin' it right, just they ain't got no problem having learnt it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Er . . .

 

 

I'm sorry, but I really have to contradict this point. It's easy to learn to speak as a native speaker, and one can get by well enough, but, having been an internet user for almost a decade, now, I have to point out that too a lot of native speakers have trouble speaking and writing CORRECTLY.

In the world of linguistics, nothing is incorrect so long as it is understandable. Most native English speakers do not have linguistic trouble conveying their message (though there may be other communication issues, such as being able to put ideas into language at all).

 

Such judgements are better reserved for English teachers and editors. It is true that, "bad," grammar can be more difficult (and annoying) to understand, but that is a whole different issue.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Such judgements are better reserved for English teachers and editors. It is true that, "bad," grammar can be more difficult (and annoying) to understand, but that is a whole different issue.

 

That, and people using "good grammar" and people speaking "redneck" are effectively speaking two different languages, or at least two vastly different dialects.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I'd ask you to define "understandable," but I do believe I'm derailing a legitimate and interesting discussion. Do carry on.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I'd ask you to define "understandable' date='" but I do believe I'm derailing a legitimate and interesting discussion. Do carry on.[/quote']

Content which is generally understood consistently (in the same context) by the majority of native English speakers as having a certain fixed meaning.

 

Example:

 

Where are my shoes?

Where my shoes?

My shoes are where?

My shoes where?

[Pointing to my shoes] Where is that?

[Pointing to my shoes] Where?

 

Not:

 

Shoes?

Beard shoe Joe

My shoes?

[Pointing to my shoes] Shoes!

Kewasa

 

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

ah-HA! So you admit that Hero Games' abbreviations are not correct English.

 

I sure as heck don't understand half of 'em.

[Solomon]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Getting back on topic...

 

I second the notion that HERO's gameplay isn't any harder than most other RPGs to handle - it's Character Generation that's hard to grasp. HERO's CG offers virtually unlimited freedom. Many players don't want such freedom. It's dificult to handle, it requires a lot of free space to process, so to speak.

 

A game such as D&D breaks Character Generation down in sequential steps. Each step can be enacted indipendently. That means that even after you just finished writing your Half-Orc Barbarian, you can easily alter one aspect of CG and see the results, working by trial and error. You don't need to "navigate" the system - just pick a random direction, see what you end up with, and if you don't like it, just retrace your steps.

 

In HERO, OTOH, you need to have a clear vision of where you are starting from, where you are going to and what course you want to follow to get there. Altering even a single aspect of a character might force you to rethink your whole character generation "strategy". HERO gives enormous freedom, but freedom requires a lot of care and attention.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Getting back on topic...

 

I second the notion that HERO's gameplay isn't any harder than most other RPGs to handle - it's Character Generation that's hard to grasp. HERO's CG offers virtually unlimited freedom. Many players don't want such freedom. It's dificult to handle, it requires a lot of free space to process, so to speak.

 

A game such as D&D breaks Character Generation down in sequential steps. Each step can be enacted indipendently. That means that even after you just finished writing your Half-Orc Barbarian, you can easily alter one aspect of CG and see the results, working by trial and error. You don't need to "navigate" the system - just pick a random direction, see what you end up with, and if you don't like it, just retrace your steps.

 

In HERO, OTOH, you need to have a clear vision of where you are starting from, where you are going to and what course you want to follow to get there. Altering even a single aspect of a character might force you to rethink your whole character generation "strategy". HERO gives enormous freedom, but freedom requires a lot of care and attention.

True, but there also aren't the unbelievable number of prerequisits in Hero. The aquisition of one trait very very rarely depends directly on having or not having a different trait. Whether it makes sense for the whole character build is another matter, but again you aren't required to do anything in any particular order, so going back and fixing things doesn't actually require, "going back," as it would in a system like D&D at all ("retracing your steps," as you put it). In essence, character creation is historyless, whereas in systems like D&D the relation of different character traits makes the whole character a very complex network.

 

Again, I say it is a matter of Hero simply being different rather than more complex (if anything, it is less complex for the above reason). You could certainly come up with guidelines for character creation that would make Hero as easy and formula-based as D&D (for those who want them). One example might be:

Character Creations Steps: Fantasy Heroic Character (75/75)

1. Choose your racial package.
   
   
2. Spend no more than 50 points on Characteristics.
   
   
3. Spend no more than 25 points on general Skills (Agility, Intellect, Social, and Background Skills).
   
   
4. Spend no more than 25 points on Languages, Transport Familiarities, Combat Skills, Weapon Familiarities, and (Combat/Penalty) Skill Levels.
   
   
5. Spend no more than 25 points on Perks and Talents.
   
   
6. Add up all points spent, subtract 75, and choose at least this many points in Disadvantages. If you buy more than this many Disadvantages, go back over steps 2-5 and spend as many of these extra points, then keep the remainder as Experience you can spend during play.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Getting back on topic...

 

Excellent post, only snipped for brevity.

 

I'll agree that some players prefer other systems because CharGen is easier/simpler/more understandable/more workable or what have you. However, I don't really think it has anything to do with being "easier" to modify a character. Rather I think one of the major traits that make it so is the definition of game balance. In D&D, you can be certain that your 1st level wizard has a handful of 1st level spells. In the Hero System, there is no requirement that a character spends his points on tiny spells, and only the GM is there to stop him from buying one large "higher level" spell that might break the game.

 

There's a lot more paperwork involved in making a Hero System character, for both the GM and the player, than in many other systems.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

One example might be:

Character Creations Steps: Fantasy Heroic Character (75/75)

1. Choose your racial package.
   
   
2. Spend no more than 50 points on Characteristics.
   
   
3. Spend no more than 25 points on general Skills (Agility, Intellect, Social, and Background Skills).
   
   
4. Spend no more than 25 points on Languages, Transport Familiarities, Combat Skills, Weapon Familiarities, and (Combat/Penalty) Skill Levels.
   
   
5. Spend no more than 25 points on Perks and Talents.
   
   
6. Add up all points spent, subtract 75, and choose at least this many points in Disadvantages. If you buy more than this many Disadvantages, go back over steps 2-5 and spend as many of these extra points, then keep the remainder as Experience you can spend during play.

For another example, see the Quick Superhuman Generator on page 81 of Champions.

 

Now I don't have Fantasy Hero, or any suppliments for it, but there isn't anything like this already? I'm surprised. I thought there would be.

[Solomon]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Excellent post, only snipped for brevity.

 

I'll agree that some players prefer other systems because CharGen is easier/simpler/more understandable/more workable or what have you. However, I don't really think it has anything to do with being "easier" to modify a character.(snip)

 

Please let me clarify what I was trying to say:

In D&D, chargen is broken down into discrete steps, and at every step you only have to choose between a limited menu of relatively homogeneous items. You can swap one feat for another feat, one class level for a different class level, or a spell for another spell.

In HERO, OTOH, every choice involves a vastly superior number of items... and in addition, those items are vastly diverse. With a given amount of points you can buy a spell, or a Talent, or, a Skill, etc.

Of course in this diversity lies a lot of HERO's strength.

 

On an unrelated point, it's also worth noting that, while character advancement in D&D can become mind-boggingly complex at higher levels, character building in HERO keeps a relatively constant level of complexity at every power level.

[kave99]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

hero systems is not complex in the astrophysics sense, its more like art apparition. some gamers are going to get hung up on math [ overblown] others on the jargon {again overblown} and still others will be intimidated by the big book [yet again overblown]. but there is a perception that its hard like astrophysics, we must stamp that idea out and show gamers that that at its core its pretty simple { sh*t i started with one 80pg book , at the same time AD&D PH was 127pg, DMG 232pg thats 359pg of complexity .if we were to bring a champions player and a AD&D player from 1982 threw time and sit them down at a tabla to play the modern descendant of there system the AD&D player would be totally lost and the Champions player would be thrilled and amazed .the D&D V 3.5, PH is now 317pg and DMG 320pg , H5R is 592pg . the simple fact is that H5R is no more difficult to learn than D&D and far more complete. }

[zornwil]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I found HERO easy to learn compared to D&D/AD&D. In fact, I never really did learn AD&D, I just made up a bunch of rules based on the fundamental character stats and observation. Although my approach to HERO was also simplistic, in that anything I didn't get or like, I just changed or ignored. And I think the important point is that so long as you get the fundamentals of HERO, which I believe I did, you can pretty much jettison the nuance and still be playing the same basic game and play it smoothly. This is an important strength of HERO and it is often completely overlooked, and now I believe that 5th edition further obscures it by its level of granularity and pure volume. Don't get me wrong, I think that Fifth isn't doing so on purpose, and I think, as has been pointed out, it's to its credit that it takes pains to point out that it's your game and you can alter as you see fit. But still, I think with each successive edition, we make HERO seem harder than it is. I think we don't put enough attention into some sort of communication of the core rules and then have the details in later chapters, some sort of approach like that. Of course there's reasons not to do that, such as finding the answers for a subject all in one place, so I'm not suggesting it's a perfect solution, it's just one approach. But I think the problem itself is real.

 

Anyway, I think the core of HERO is quite intuitive. I would agree that if you want to master the subtleties and nuance, it takes a long time and I love the description earlier of "long not steep." Whether mastering those subtleties is worthwhile depends an awful lot on the individua, certainly the play style of the GM/group, and even the type of campaign.

 

PS - I have found it worthwhile to get more into the details of HERO, I should say, and I still feel that I don't have a true mastery, though I feel I'm at least on a sort of low-end expert level or such

[bwdemon]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

The game does have a steeper learning curve than many others on the market and other factors that can make it scary to new players. I have several friends - all lifelong gamers - who are scared to death of the HERO System, even though they like how it works and what it can do. Here are the two key areas they don't like...

 

1. Character creation: too much math, too much time, too many options. Nearly every power has its own mechanic and there are tons of powers available.

 

Solution: pre-made characters and/or simplified characters. Yes, HERO allows you to create the super-gadgeteer who can do pretty much anything, but this isn't a good build for a new player to attempt to build or play unless they really want to play with a calculator for a while and learn over 100 pages of powers and modifiers. As a general rule, disallow foci and keep concepts straightforward until players can get a grasp of what's going on.

 

I liken HERO to the Elder Scrolls PC games in that some players will just freeze up when they're told they can do anything they want. With HERO, it's the character creation system. With Elder Scrolls games, it's the open-ended game and massive world. Some players may never get over this sort of paralyzation, so you'll need to make their characters for them or at least help them out a lot with CharGen.

 

2. Combat: how do range penalties work, why do we start on PS12, movement/turn mode operation, the high-SPD character problem, and - most importantly - length!

 

Solution: be very careful to judge the defense levels for a game appropriately. If the average defense is 30 and the average attack is 10 DC, you're going to have a lot of excrutiatingly long combats. I prefer a 25:12 split, myself. The littany of modifiers and limitations on actions isn't that bad, but the mechanics aren't common to too many other games, so it requires getting used to.

 

The high-SPD problem is especially troubling to those players who are firmly grounded in the you-act/I-act gameplay of so many RPGs. Some people like it, because it allows you to simulate characters that are faster than others and is more realistic. Some people hate it, because they end up watching someone else act twice for every time they get to act once and it smells of unfairness. I recommend a SPD gap of no more than 2 (and preferably no more than 1) between the fastest and slowest PCs as players learn the game. This should be enough to prevent anyone from becoming overly discouraged or bothered by the potential effects of SPD.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I've found the best solution to the first problem to be Hero Designer. Say what you like about the price, but I think it's WELL worth it. It shortcuts right through all the math problems, puts everything out there for you to click and modify as needed, figures it all out for you, then gives you a choice of layouts.

 

As for the open-endedness problem, I've found that setting out the character archetypes (for fantasy: priest, fighter, mage, thief, etc; for superhero: brick, speedster, gadgeteer, energy blaster, etc) and asking the players which archetype they want to start with is a good way to come up with the initial concept. Then, if they're a D&D player (and so far, everyone I've asked this question of is), then you ask them what they always wanted that archetype to have in D&D, then you build that.

[Cancer]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

...hard like astrophysics' date=' we must stamp that idea out and show gamers that that at its core its pretty simple ... [/quote']

What's so hard about astrophysics?

 

bwdemon's point about the SPD problem is an aspect of Solomon's point about character creation, and, I think, an important one. It's very easy for a new/inexperienced player or GM to create characters which turn out hopelessly ineffective compared to other characters with the same point cost.

 

An aspect of this is the "cool in concept, hopeless in play" syndrome, which is especially deadly if it happens that the HERO neophyte is in a group of power gamers or munchkins. That person is doomed to getting Waxed Every Fight and the only way out is to burn Another Five Hours futzing with character generation, after which he will most probably get Waxed Every Fight again but in a different way.

 

It only takes about two iterations of that to make you go back to the systems where beginning characters come off the shelf with five minutes of tinkering ... and yeah, you've got a lame beginning character, but the character's no more lame than any other beginning character.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

That's when you let the munchkin write up the newbie's character...

 

Or, of course, there was the one time when I got sick of micromanaging one player's point abuse (and habit of showing up sans sheet with a rosy memory of his stats) and just added 1d6 to every attack pointed at him. Worked like a charm...

[zornwil]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

What's so hard about astrophysics?

 

bwdemon's point about the SPD problem is an aspect of Solomon's point about character creation, and, I think, an important one. It's very easy for a new/inexperienced player or GM to create characters which turn out hopelessly ineffective compared to other characters with the same point cost.

 

An aspect of this is the "cool in concept, hopeless in play" syndrome, which is especially deadly if it happens that the HERO neophyte is in a group of power gamers or munchkins. That person is doomed to getting Waxed Every Fight and the only way out is to burn Another Five Hours futzing with character generation, after which he will most probably get Waxed Every Fight again but in a different way.

 

It only takes about two iterations of that to make you go back to the systems where beginning characters come off the shelf with five minutes of tinkering ... and yeah, you've got a lame beginning character, but the character's no more lame than any other beginning character.

I think we should entertain that there's some level that HERO ought not bother to cater to, and that for some people, they ought to stick with systems that enforce balance via other mechanisms.

[zornwil]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

That's when you let the munchkin write up the newbie's character...

 

Great point. I encourage players to show the more experienced/effective builders their characters for that reason. I don't require it and won't force it as some people just don't want to share their character creation process with anyone besides the GM, which I find a little weird, but it's a personal thing.