Learning Curve?

[Dust Raven]

Well okay now... we all know that the Hero System has a rather steep learning curve. Right?

 

Or are we fooling ourselves into thinking there is?

 

I'm not so sure either way. Hero wasn't the first system I ever learned. I had already played several other systems before being introduced to Hero. I didn't find Hero any more or less difficult to learn than any other game I learned since getting into the whole gamer thing though. I'd say it was easier to grasp than AD&D but more difficult that GURPS. Of course, I learned AD&D before learning Hero and GURPS after, so how can I really judge?

 

And there are other games I could never get the grasp of, like Rolemaster and Traveler. Would they have a steeper learning curve than Hero, or is there just something about those games I consciously or subconsciously hate and so refuse to learn properly?

 

How about the rest of you? Did you have a difficult time learning the Hero System when you first learned it? Compare it to other games you learned around the same time and say whether or not Hero was more or less difficult.

 

My hypothisis is that Hero doesn't have any steeper a learning curve than most other popular games, such as D&D, WoD or Rifts, but appears too because of its toolkit nature. Afterall, there is no Hero System for Dummies book out there, so just how hard can it really be?

[archermoo]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Well, I got into Hero when it was still Champions. I thought it was a pretty simple system, but very cool. Then again, I was playing D&D with whatever pre-Rolemaster stuff ICE had come out with at the time (At least Arms Law and Spell Law if I recall correctly). I've been playing continuously as it ramped up from that first thin book to the "monster" that it is today. So my initial exposure what that it was a pretty simple game, and I don't really think the current version is that much harder. But I'm probably not the best judge of that kind of thing.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I started with D&D, when Elf was race and class. Then I went to V&V. Then Champions. Champions was easier to figure out than the others, was easier than Traveler, which I started the same time as Champion. So after 20+ yrs, I still find HeroSystem easier. Like archermoo, I might not be a good judge on this.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I think it has a LONGER learning curve, and you can get much higher than most, but I would not say it is that steep: it is built from basic principles so once you have them everything flow: that is why I like it

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Okay, what do you mean by "longer" rather than steep? Whichever term is used, doesn't it all mean "hard to learn"? Or do you mean it just takes longer to learn, but not harder?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Okay' date=' what do you mean by "longer" rather than steep? Whichever term is used, doesn't it all mean "hard to learn"? Or do you mean it just takes longer to learn, but not harder?[/quote']

 

I mean I don't think it is hard to pick up or start using but after 20+ years I'm still learning new ways to use what I know, and stuff I didn't know (or had forgotten). I don't think you get that with most other systems. You can use it quickly but the nuances still get you

 

Bit like chess, really.

[Gadodel]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I quickly learned that 'reverse engineering' everything helped me figure out the basics. I have found that it is easier to do for HERO, than some other games.

 

Example:

 

In HERO, the exact same set of rules are used for a character that will be played and the Dragon that the character might face. I can figure out how each was made fairly easily.

 

In comparison, D&D 3.5; a not so same set of rules are used for a character that will be played and the Dragon that the character might face. Figuring out how each was made will take more time, particularily if the Dragon's age category is quite high. There is a cumulative set of rules that one uses in D&D.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I mean I don't think it is hard to pick up or start using but after 20+ years I'm still learning new ways to use what I know, and stuff I didn't know (or had forgotten). I don't think you get that with most other systems. You can use it quickly but the nuances still get you

 

Bit like chess, really.

 

Bit like everything, I'd think.

[HeroGM]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

honestly I think it depends on how much you tack onto it.

 

Hit, damage, who goes when. D&D easy (notice the D&D, not AD&D). When you start tacking on multiple attacks, etc then it starts bogging your mind down.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I think HERO has a longer learning curve, but it isn't steep at all. None of the information is all that hard, but there is just a lot of it. I still find myself getting out my ReFRED pretty frequently, and I could have thrown away a lot of the core rulebooks for many other games I played heavily.

 

However, I came to HERO a little later in my gaming life than most people, and I had been exposed to many other systems which had robbed parts from HERO or bore resemblances to HERO in other ways before I was exposed to HERO. If you started playing HERO in 1982 like many on this board then it was your first exposure to any of the mechanics.

[kave99]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I think that hero is at hart a rather simpel game but at this stage it would be intimadating to new player. the rules that i started with were 80 pg's H5R is all most 600. i knowe that are shoole systems are geting werss but i would hope that the average gamer can do the simpel math reqiered to play it. I have a seres lerning disability but that didn't slow me down{you may see this in my spelling from time to time ,thank god for spell cheqe } as for the lerning curve well it starts faral steep but then gently slopes to a monumental presapes.

[kave99]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

and now with spell check

I think that hero is at hart a rather simple game but at this stage it would be intimidating to new player. the rules that i started with were 80 pg's H5R is all most 600. i know that are school systems are getting worse but i would hope that the average gamer can do the simple math required to play it. I have a sever learning disability but that didn't slow me down{you may see this in my spelling from time to time ' date='thank god for spell Check } as for the learning curve well it starts fairly steep but then gently slopes to a monumental precipice.[/quote']

[Satyrkat]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I don't think the learning curve is that steep for playing the game. However Creating the characters (I.E. from conception to hard numbers on paper) is where I think a lot of people perceive the difficulty to be.

[kave99]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

well if you mean that there are no starting point's for example player i want to play blaster ,gm hears template add some stuff to it like a name and a description and have a character . i don't intrinsically like it but 3rd ed hero/villein option for a bunch 250pt characters i remember a lot of newbies playing Pulsar and Green Dragon there first couple times ,seems like a reasonable idea.

[Rapier]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

That's hard to say. There are two basic types of RPGers.

 

1) Newbies. These are the people that have gotten roped into one of those weird Role Playing Games by a friend and really have no idea what they are in for.

 

2) Hero-Newbies. These are the people that have some experience with RPGs (most likely DnD or D20 in this day and age) but none with Hero System.

 

For #2 (like me) it was not too much of an adjustment. There were some different counting methods (eg BODY dice) but you pretty much have all the nitty gritty down. For #2s its not too much of a learning curve. At some point you have already gotten past the random dice rolls and understanding that numbers now equate to some kind of statistic (eg STR). For these people I would expect about three of four games before they start understanding the system and asking why their character has an EB instead of an EGO attack.

 

For #1, I can't say for certain. However, I think the curve is a great deal longer. There is the understanding of converting stats into a value and representing objects (eg weapons) with a numeric value and rolling dice that need more counting than is necessary for Yahtzee. However, I still don't think with a normally intelligent person that it would take a great deal of time. Maybe three or four games behind the Previous RPGer.

 

I've currently got a couple of #1s in my group. All were brought by a significant other that when it came down to the original player or their girlfriend that we had to keep we kept the girlfriend.

 

When it comes to a GOOD group of heroes there is no such thing as friendship.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I played RPGs for about 8 years when I picked up a copy of the first printing of the BBB.

 

Without anyone to teach me, it took me a good month just to be able to describe a decent character. 18 months, roughly, before I felt comfortable enough to run a game.

 

Then again, I'm simply a chicken, and my brain is very tiny.

[Mike W]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

My take is: Short answer "No" with a "but". Long answer "yes, to a point". Let me explain.

 

On the one hand: the basics of HERO are easy to grasp: roll 3d6 to attempt something, the lower the better. If successful, roll X dice of effect to determine level of success, damage, etc. I know people who have played HERO for years without knowing much more than this. Unless you're GMing, the rest doesn't matter much.

 

On the other hand: there are a lot of little things to work out and learn, and elements of play balance and power building can be quite sophisticated and often need to be learned on a trial and error basis which can take a long time.

[Rapier]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Is d20 really different though?

 

D20 to Hit: roll High

Hero to Hit: roll Low

 

D20 Damage: roll HIGH

Hero Damage: roll HIGH

 

It's not really all that different, but the real question is can you understand totalling dice and rolling under/over a required number.

 

It's a lot like playing cards with a trump suit. If you can play a trump suit you can play a BUNCH of other games. If you can't, you need to understand how to run a trump suit to bring you up to the table.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

In some ways, I think it's similar to learning, say, Magic: The Gathering. Magic is easy enough to learn to play, and putting together a simple deck isn't hard. But really grasping the subtleties and synergies of the cards well enough to design a competitively strong deck can take a fair amount of experience.

 

And even within that, I think it varies a lot from person to person. Some people seem to "get it" rather quickly, while others have played for years and still don't quite grok it fully...

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Hmmm. I don't know.

 

You see, I've played very few different systems. The only system I know (how to run, how to play, how to create a character) is D&D. Third edition, not 3.5 or d20 or any of that ridiculousness.

 

For Hero, I knew how to play within a couple of weeks, but am still learning how to create characters, and won't feel comfortable with running my own game until after I've gone over Sidekick, then 5ER. The only reason I can create characters as easily as I do is thanks to Hero Designer.

 

So . . . yeah. The learning curve isn't especially steep, but it is long.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

That's hard to say. There are two basic types of RPGers.

 

1) Newbies. These are the people that have gotten roped into one of those weird Role Playing Games by a friend and really have no idea what they are in for.

 

2) Hero-Newbies. These are the people that have some experience with RPGs (most likely DnD or D20 in this day and age) but none with Hero System.

 

The thing for me is, I can't believe those are the only possibilities. I can imagine players being introduced to RPGs through the Hero System, therefore I must assume it's happened. Not only that, I know of a few people who's first game was Champions (my girlfriend's intro to RPGs was a Pulp Hero era Champions game).

[Shike019]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I feel pretty confident in my abilities to understand the mechanical aspects of the systems. The only system that I've played, but still don't understand is AD&D. but i've played both D&D 3.0 & 3.5, as well as other d20 games (sypcraft, Rokugan, etc). And then Hero. I found the d20 systems easier to learn at the outset, but the onlything I found daunting in the hero system was character building and conception because there are almost an infinite number of possibilities. In the other systems i've played, there were only certain ways to play certain types of characters which reduced some of the stress of character generation.

 

So for all my rambling, I think the steep part of the learning curve with HERO has to do with character generation and power building, the playing part is quite simple.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

Okay, general question update thingy...

 

While the terms steep and long don't have much difference for me (either one means it take a while to catch a handle on things), what to you all mean by "long"? Compare this longness to the longness of other games?

 

Are we just talking minimum amount of knowledge needed to play? I know with D&D, you don't need a lot. You don't even need to know how to make a character, you just roll dice, decide how agile and strong you are based on what you roll, pick a class, race and take the starting package and poof! you've got a character. All you need to know from that point is that a d20 is rolled to determine the success on most things and you always want to roll high, and all modifiers add to the die roll. Then it's just a matter of knowing when it's your turn and what weapons and skills you have, and you only need to know the rules for those specific things to play. A bit more if you're a mage, but not much.

 

I suppose with Hero it takes a bit more. While you don't have to know how to make a character, you should know how to take one apart. Everything on the sheet is a core game mechanic and shares things in common with everyone else's character sheet, even if one guy is a brick with lots of STR and another is an energy projector with a big EB, or even a mentalist with Telepathy and Ego Attack. But they each work a little differently.

 

It's a perspective I'm not familiar with, viewing things as a player that doesn't GM the game. When I learn a system, I learn it as if I plan on running the game someday, even if I'm not. It's mainly just because more often than not I am the GM I suppose, so I'm just in the habbit of learning a game from the POV of the GM, who need to learn everything. For players I imagine it's quite different.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

I mean, personally at least, that I was quick to catch on to how to play, and most other system newbies I've played with are the same way. Toss someone in who knows NOTHING about Hero system, give them a character sheet, let them play, and I'll be shocked if they don't have a grasp on how to play before the end of a combat phase.

 

It's easy to pick up on the basics. But the creation of characters, fully grasping all of the rules, how to spend experience in a way that makes the character develop right . . . THAT takes much longer.

 

At least, in my case, it has, and in the cases of the three others I'm helping to learn the system.

[Gadodel]

Re: Learning Curve?

 

It's a perspective I'm not familiar with, viewing things as a player that doesn't GM the game. When I learn a system, I learn it as if I plan on running the game someday, even if I'm not. It's mainly just because more often than not I am the GM I suppose, so I'm just in the habbit of learning a game from the POV of the GM, who need to learn everything. For players I imagine it's quite different.

 

Well, yeah; that's true. It might take people awhile to learn how the game works. It may take people a while to learn how to use the game. I think they are related, but they are different things.