What is HERO about?

[TheRavenIs]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

I see Hero as having the ‘hidden’ aspect that you see, as well as it doesn’t. I play Hero for the main reason that it allows me to make a Character that then allows me to explore my own mind in a shared world. Do I see Hero having a self-realization part … yes? I see ANY game system if it is any good to allow you to do that, but … you have to approach Hero or any game with that as part of it to find it.

 

Hero to me allows me to do things that only one other game did, Traveler, to go beyond the basic set-up of the game system. Hero allows me to explore things inside myself that I can’t do in the ‘real’ world. Hero gives me the means to do this for the reason that it is UNIVERSAL. I can do a Character that is in a Fantasy game, Dark Champion game, Pulp game, Space Hero game, and always in a Champions game or any weird combo I can create, that allows me to do this. Now that isn’t to say you can’t do it in another game, but I’ve found after RPing for over 20+ years that Hero allows you the ultimate flexibility to do it.

 

Hero gives me the feeling that when I play it, I can do a Character that can go against the convention of the basic’s in a way that doesn’t either destroy the game for others or make the experience of the game for the others I play with less than enjoyable. If I play DnD3.5 I can’t do that, you play against kind and that action makes it hard for you and the others to have fun, I find that is that in that style of game you are encouraged to play to convention.

 

Now as to the point that Hero doesn’t have the self-realization, like everything you do a system like life, only what you bring to something is what you find.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

do you believe the toolkit has: a) some inherent prejudices;

Obviously; all simulations have their own biases. Hero favors Individual Heroic Action, with a "reasonable" balance between accuracy, complexity, and cinematic style. (These are all, of course, highly subjective terms and some may prefer to tilt the balance in one direction or another - something I would argue the system permits, BTW.)

 

if so' date=' does it therefore fits more with certain play experiences than others[/quote']

Sure. For instance, I think it's one of the few (only?) systems that handles Superheroic level play as well as it handles Heroic Action, but that does come at the cost of some granularity at the "realistic normal" level. Similarly, I think the complexity of the combat system makes it hard (tho not impossible) to run huge "skirmish-level" fights with 30 or 40 minis on the table. (Savage Worlds seems to be better-suited towards that kind of "fast & furious" play, `tho I haven't played it.) And the "action is his reward" idiom would seem to make it hard to capture the "fear & futility" of a CoC game.

 

But then, there are folk on these boards who will argue all three of those points; and not just the arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing folks, either.

 

and c) - IF so - wouldn't this constitute some form of theme or the like' date=' even though I can well grant it's rather vague?[/quote']

I guess so... Maybe I'm just not comfortable using the word "theme" in this context. I hate semantic debates, but theme to me implies more narrative purpose than I'm comfortable ascribing to the tool box. But I can't think of a better word off the top of my head.

 

Some rambling - anyway' date=' just thoughts - the point is if something is about a type of fiction, that means it's about some sort of theme, however broad. But I'm not suggesting that one needs to give a deeper definition than you gave, despite that approach being my prejudice in such analysis.[/quote']

I see your point. But even if we say that Hero's theme is Individual Heroic Action... how is that different from 90% of the other RPGs on the market? Is that a bias of Hero's, or of the RPG hobby as a whole?

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Is this the human value you call friendship?â€

“Don't give me any of that 'Star Trek' crap. It's too early in the morning.â€

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Hero to me allows me to do things that only one other game did' date=' Traveler, to go beyond the basic set-up of the game system. Hero allows me to explore things inside myself that I can’t do in the ‘real’ world.[/quote']

Interesting comparison. One thing I always felt both Traveller and Hero do very well is focus on the characters themselves, rather than on how many magic swords they're carrying. Hero characters (and Traveller characters) always seemed more like people to me, and less like a list of levels, feats, and gear. Of course, that could just be my biases.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I said it was our only chance -- I did not say it was a good one.â€

[Springald Jack]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

What is HERO about?

 

I think that the rules of HERO are organized around the task of pitting beings with very specifically described Superhuman abilities against each other in Combat. Powers and Combat. This can be seen in things like that mental powers rules are based on the way a damage power works.

 

That said HERO has a less strong flavor than most games.

 

This is not a judgement, but I feel it to be true.

[hancock.tom]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

This is a really interesting thread, and you have found a very difficult question to answer.

 

I'm just glad I can keep having fun playing this game without answering it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

The Hokey Pokey is what it's all about.

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Does that make sense' date=' Zorn?[/quote']

 

Actually, yes, I think so, quite a bit.

 

On a tangent, I feel it's not at all the same as, but it's not terribly dissimilar from (um, in other words there's a vague relationship to) a line of argument I pursued briefly with Jared during the seminar. I was making the point that a game in which the pursuit in and of itself is exploring the rules as mechanics and the "academia" of it (not the word I used, but something approximating that) itself is the purpose, and that I don't think that's wrong, even if it isn't really "about" something in the sense he searches for. I was thinking of HERO in this regard, though I'm not pigeonholing HERO as such.

 

Anyway, that doesn't address your actual points. I wouldn't naysay those. And I think you raise an interesting enough and valid approach. Will have to continue to think about it.

 

I do want to pursue that I don't think you, I, or even a large portion of the people on these boards play "real HERO". And that, to be fair, is very much a result of the ethos of HERO - which does play into "what is HERO about." As to KS and others' similar points, it does speak to that toolkit essence, and I think it should be noted that this, well, zeitgeist of the game is echoed successfully by people's adaptations of it. It's why Mentor and Trebuchet can play a relatively "straight" comic book adaptation with HERO, why I do a sort of (as someone put it) "Rockford files" cum superhero feel with a heavy dose of X-Files (brief comment - I did that long before the X-Filles, too!), and why you have your sort of "legendary gritty" (well, I hope that the quick take doesn't annoy you/isn't too far off...) supers game.

 

So it's an important point and I think your post successfully explores this. Thanks. And I want to acknowledge others have been hitting at the same thing, I just am finding this clinches and moreover formulates those sentiments a bit more.

 

In any event, it is an important distinction for HERO. And it is what I like about HERO so much. (And, by the way, it's why I disagree with DOJ's unwillingness to license "built using HERO" (as in games that don't look like HERO directly anymore) games, even though I do understand and appreciate their position)

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

It would seem to me that to many if not most gamers' date=' especially Hero gamers, that the purpose is to be part of the story rather than just tell the story. In an RPG setting, there is no controlled guarantee that the heroes will win or even come out OK. Some genres weigh the campaingn in that favor, but telling a story is still too distant a description for my view. Taking the beating as Spiderman or ndiana Jones is something that players try to prevent their players from doing rather than just accepting it as part of the tale.[/quote']

I just want to add to what you've said, even at the risk of repeating to some degree my most recent post. I don't think HERO gamers are so unique in the regard you cite, even if they are more that way than, say, "traditional" RPGers; I think they share this attitude, perhaps ironically, with many of the most vocal recent wave of gamers, but what makes HEROites unique, I think, is they take this to the logical extreme I do cite above, of actually not just tinkering but "daring" to remake the game, in fact virtually IGNORING (okay, I'm overstating for effect... ) Steve Long, Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick, et. al. (my apologies to those not mentioned). But they're doing so BECAUSE of the toolkit ethos that has developed.

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Obviously; all simulations have their own biases. Hero favors Individual Heroic Action, with a "reasonable" balance between accuracy, complexity, and cinematic style. (These are all, of course, highly subjective terms and some may prefer to tilt the balance in one direction or another - something I would argue the system permits, BTW.)

 

 

Sure. For instance, I think it's one of the few (only?) systems that handles Superheroic level play as well as it handles Heroic Action, but that does come at the cost of some granularity at the "realistic normal" level. Similarly, I think the complexity of the combat system makes it hard (tho not impossible) to run huge "skirmish-level" fights with 30 or 40 minis on the table. (Savage Worlds seems to be better-suited towards that kind of "fast & furious" play, `tho I haven't played it.) And the "action is his reward" idiom would seem to make it hard to capture the "fear & futility" of a CoC game.

 

But then, there are folk on these boards who will argue all three of those points; and not just the arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing folks, either.

 

 

I guess so... Maybe I'm just not comfortable using the word "theme" in this context. I hate semantic debates, but theme to me implies more narrative purpose than I'm comfortable ascribing to the tool box. But I can't think of a better word off the top of my head.

 

 

I see your point. But even if we say that Hero's theme is Individual Heroic Action... how is that different from 90% of the other RPGs on the market? Is that a bias of Hero's, or of the RPG hobby as a whole?

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Is this the human value you call friendship?â€

“Don't give me any of that 'Star Trek' crap. It's too early in the morning.â€

 

 

Just to isolate that last question, it's very much why I refer to the "shades of gray" among HERO, GURPS, d20, Savage Worlds, etc..

 

Although I would hasten to say that I think the "individual heroic action" is more endemic to the "universal" RPGs, and as you get into more specific/nuanced settings the role of that hero (if there is one) is more specific and, sometimes, even unique. I think some games also tend to play around a lot more with "individual".

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

This is a really interesting thread, and you have found a very difficult question to answer.

 

I'm just glad I can keep having fun playing this game without answering it.

Ha! Me, too!

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Free will and the rewarding of the decisions and action of the players because of those decisions and vicariously through their characters. By eliminating some of the previous game conventions of alignment and character class' date=' hero allows most player characters to choose whether to be physical, mental and/or spiritual in their approaches to conflict. There are equally powerful and valid capabilities to convince, punch, blast or escape ones way out of a situation which are only paid lip servive in other systems.[/quote']

Upon reflection, this statement tends to unite the "it's a toolkit to make your own - so you must make your own" with fuzzy "self-realization" aspects.

 

Just another thought...

[Lucius]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Zornwill:

 

What is the English Language about?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary urges you to look again. Think about it. It's a serious question with a bearing on the matter.

[Lemurion]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Hero is about creating heroes. I know that sounds trite, but that's really what it comes down to.

 

Right from the beginning, heroes have differed from the rest of us not only through their strengths, but also in their weaknesses. Nothing defines a hero as much as his flaw. It goes as far back as Gilgamesh. The first hero on record, who had an unnatural fear of death. Moving forwards, we have Achilles, whose name has become synonymous with a heroic flaw. How many time have you seen the term "Achilles' heel?"

 

To the best of my knowledge, Hero introduced the idea of "disads" to the RPG world; the idea that in return for greater than average abilities a character would have commensurate limitations. Previous games may have had flaws (Gamma World anyone?) but Hero was the game that really brought forth the notion that part of a hero's very ability grew from their greater "disability," from flaws and limitations.

 

That is what I think Hero is for.

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Zornwill:

 

What is the English Language about?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary urges you to look again. Think about it. It's a serious question with a bearing on the matter.

RPGs to language is a great comparison as there's some validity to it given both are communication facilitators, but I think it ignores both the consensus-building or consensus-defining and the intentional aspects of RPGS that don't exist, at least not in any real similar manner, in language

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Hero is about creating heroes. I know that sounds trite, but that's really what it comes down to.

 

Right from the beginning, heroes have differed from the rest of us not only through their strengths, but also in their weaknesses. Nothing defines a hero as much as his flaw. It goes as far back as Gilgamesh. The first hero on record, who had an unnatural fear of death. Moving forwards, we have Achilles, whose name has become synonymous with a heroic flaw. How many time have you seen the term "Achilles' heel?"

 

To the best of my knowledge, Hero introduced the idea of "disads" to the RPG world; the idea that in return for greater than average abilities a character would have commensurate limitations. Previous games may have had flaws (Gamma World anyone?) but Hero was the game that really brought forth the notion that part of a hero's very ability grew from their greater "disability," from flaws and limitations.

 

That is what I think Hero is for.

I like the "creating" word in that. I don't know that I necessarily agree, but it lends an important aspect to the conversation, since it means that the entire system is about "creation". Very intrigueing idea. It fits the character growth method/reward system as well as it is such a generic statement it fits the broad nature of the game. The only thing is perhaps "hero" lacks definition, but no matter, this may be the most precise definition as it is in fact the common seed among all prior posts. It refers to the "vanilla" nature, the toolkit nature (after all, you can't form a game around the "creation" process without being rather toolkit), informs the notion of self-realization, and does spill over into the idea that people will in turn recreate the game as creation is its central ethos.

 

Huh - you know, that might be the most appropriate phase yet. Wow, nice! Repped!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Hero is about creating heroes. I know that sounds trite' date=' but that's really what it comes down to.[/quote']

I don't think it's trite - I think you've hit the nail on the head. "Be A Hero," as the book says.

 

:smack-with-the-rep-stick:

 

What is the English Language about?

Actually, that's not a bad analogy. Languages may not have "themes" as such, but they too have their own built-in biases and assumptions. It's something liguists & translators have to keep in mind. And there are things you can say in English that you simply cannot say in (for example) Arabic, and vice-versa.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?”

[ghost-angel]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

You know .. on the English Analogy. It probably is the best since English has more words than any other language. You have more choices of how to say somthing like with HERO you have more choices on how to build something.

 

This has its drawbacks, naturally, but that comes with that kind of versitality.

[Springald Jack]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

You know .. on the English Analogy. It probably is the best since English has more words than any other language.

 

English also has a much simpler grammer than pretty much any other Indo-European language and has severly debased phonetic rules because we don't change spelling and barely change pronuncation when we appropriate a loan word.

 

English is the d20 System. An occasionally elegant mess of whatever those responible threw together.

 

HERO is Attic Greek a very complex structure that nonetheless comes together pretty elegantly.

 

I could probably extend this metaphor to other games but chose not to. (hint the Munchkin card game is Pig Latin )

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

I know I'm coming into this kinda late, but... I think you might have the question slightly out-of-focus, Zornwil.

 

To me, asking what the HERO System is "about" is vaguely akin to seeing a man reading a book, and asking him what the paper and ink are "about." The paper and ink themselves aren't "about" anything... they're just the medium for conveying the story. It's the story being conveyed that's "about" something.

 

Similarly, the HERO System is a medium for conveying ideas and stories. It's not "about" anything on its own, except perhaps conveying the ideas and stories with as little distortion and as much clarity as possible.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

To me, asking what the HERO System is "about" is vaguely akin to seeing a man reading a book, and asking him what the paper and ink are "about." The paper and ink themselves aren't "about" anything... they're just the medium for conveying the story. It's the story being conveyed that's "about" something.

 

Similarly, the HERO System is a medium for conveying ideas and stories. It's not "about" anything on its own, except perhaps conveying the ideas and stories with as little distortion and as much clarity as possible.

True, however the medium does influence the message; movies are different from TV shows, which are different from books, which are different from magazine articles. I think what zornwil is trying to examine is how the HERO system medium influences the games we play with it.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Mercy is the mark of a great man. [stab] Guess I'm just a good man. [stab] Well, I'm okay.”

[bigdamnhero]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

English is the d20 System. An occasionally elegant mess of whatever those responible threw together.

 

HERO is Attic Greek a very complex structure that nonetheless comes together pretty elegantly.

Good analogy, as far as structure goes. But where the analogy breaks down is that you can say a lot more with English than you can say with Attic Greek; that is to say, there are more things you can say in English but not in Greek than vice-versa. (I'm not a linguist, so correct me if I'm wrong.) Which is the reverse of the case with d20-vs-Hero.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Rasputin, bring in the bucket of soapy frogs and remove his trousers!â€

[Springald Jack]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

Good analogy' date=' as far as structure goes. But where the analogy breaks down is that you can say a lot more with English than you can say with Attic Greek; that is to say, there are more things you can say in English but not in Greek than vice-versa.[/quote']

 

Fair enough call HERO Latin then (I didn't want to cause I was going to use Latin for another game but I digress) The Vatican keeps the vocabulary of Latin up to date so it can say all kinds of things that in all fairness Attic Greek can't. (I have the Cat in the Hat in Latin)

[Gadodel]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

It's about the use of a superb toolkit and the self actualization of one's imagination.

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

I don't think it's trite - I think you've hit the nail on the head. "Be A Hero," as the book says.

 

:smack-with-the-rep-stick:

 

 

Actually, that's not a bad analogy. Languages may not have "themes" as such, but they too have their own built-in biases and assumptions. It's something liguists & translators have to keep in mind. And there are things you can say in English that you simply cannot say in (for example) Arabic, and vice-versa.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?”

I really like his original term "create" rather than "be", and I think that's just the right emphasis. Maybe nit-picky but I think it's a critical difference in verbs.

[zornwil]

Re: What is HERO about?

 

I know I'm coming into this kinda late, but... I think you might have the question slightly out-of-focus, Zornwil.

 

To me, asking what the HERO System is "about" is vaguely akin to seeing a man reading a book, and asking him what the paper and ink are "about." The paper and ink themselves aren't "about" anything... they're just the medium for conveying the story. It's the story being conveyed that's "about" something.

 

Similarly, the HERO System is a medium for conveying ideas and stories. It's not "about" anything on its own, except perhaps conveying the ideas and stories with as little distortion and as much clarity as possible.

I dunno, I think Jared Sorenson's original question is pretty solid, but I like bigdamnhero's comment that the medium affects the message, and we're saying how does it do that. I think when you design a game, you should be able to say "what is this game about," and although I think Jared's bar is difficult, it's not at all impossible. I'm creating an action-adventure game that I'm sure some will say is redundant to HERO, GURPS, and Savage Worlds, but I think its emphasis, which is what it is "about," is an answer he found acceptable, so I know from experience the question can be answered reasonably in terms of how Jared phrased it, and I hope I'm phrasing it in a similar enough manner. I think that every game influences play experience, to one degree or another - or it's just a junky system, frankly, something without focus and lending nothing, at which point why use that system as opposed to any other? It would be purposeless...unless each system has its own sort of sublte influence.

 

Though I might give Fudge a pass on the question and just say "it's about a blank slate". Then again I've only cursorily read through the system. As an interesting side note to those interested, Luke Crane, the designer of Burning Wheel, recommends Fudge (hmm, is that all caps?) as a mechanical system to use when you first start testing out your thoughts and before you really have devised your own system. Personally, I'd use HERO of course, given my experience, unless my design were something radically different from action-adventure (in which case I'd have to revisit and see if Fudge is a bit more "blank").