Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

[SuperKlaus]

Hey HEROdom, I'd like some opinions and ideas to help me with a character build here. If I've got EB10d6+4d6, Increased END inside an Elemental Control, do you guys think it's cool to have a couple Naked Advantages on EB up to 14d6 (these are bought outside the framework, naturally)?

 

The book suggests not allowing naked Ads on slots but I'm not seeing how it could be abusive here. Also, given how Haymaker works, I could happily unleash an 18d6 EB with the Advantages, right? I don't need to cover myself by buying the Advantages for EB up to 18d6?

 

Hope I'm clear.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

Considering that I, personally, am pretty down on Naked Advantages altogether, I'll have to say to avoid it.

 

I think Naked Advantages are fine for advantages that are intended to always be in effect, but sometimes are countered (e.g.: Reduced Endurance, OAF (Wand of power) or Armor Piercing, not against metal), but to be able to freely tack on advantages seems to me like getting a Multipower for free. And to be able to apply a Naked Advantage to multiple powers compounds the problem. (Although, it doesn't sound like you're doing that here.)

 

Since I don't like them much, I haven't studied the rules enough to help you with your final question.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

If the Naked Advantages were bought strait, outside the EC I might allow them. Of course I would most likely restrict you to applying one at a time - making this an expensive endeavor.

 

Generally I've used Naked Advantages as a set of Powers in a Multipower Pool that apply to a Power bought strait.

[Lucius]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

As far as the haymaker:

 

If I recall, it adds 4 "Damage Classes" which more or less equates to 20 active points. So no, if you have advantages on the attack, I think you need to account for them with the haymaker. If it's a total of +1 advantages, I think the haymaker adds 2d6.

 

Of course, that's just an instant opinion without having consulted the rules. I could be wrong.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that I often am.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

As far as the haymaker:

 

If I recall, it adds 4 "Damage Classes" which more or less equates to 20 active points. So no, if you have advantages on the attack, I think you need to account for them with the haymaker. If it's a total of +1 advantages, I think the haymaker adds 2d6.

 

Of course, that's just an instant opinion without having consulted the rules. I could be wrong.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that I often am.

Martial Maneuvers (of any nature) do not have to Prorate their Added DCs to advantaged attacks - they stack directly. Haymaker adds 4DCs regardless of the type of attack it is used with.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

I admit it does sound like a multipower might be more appropriate. You might consider making the attack Variable Advantage, but with only limited advantages (which is worth ¼ less than regular VA) to model it in an EC.

 

That said, there are times when a naked advantage is appropriate, but it depends on the advantage and what the character is trying to do with it (e.g. the Mongoose write-up with AP on STR to represent a focused chi sort of thing). In my campaigns, naked advantages are typically last resort or unique sort of powers that are fairly restricted to prevent the player from using them all the time. So if that is the case, I'd go for it, but if it is just a cheap way to get a second type of energy blast I think I'd disallow it.

 

_________________________________________________________

"Some people spread happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde

[radioKAOS]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

Martial Maneuvers (of any nature) do not have to Prorate their Added DCs to advantaged attacks - they stack directly. Haymaker adds 4DCs regardless of the type of attack it is used with.

 

Not so exactly.

 

Unusual Haymakers (5er p389) add damage differently.

 

Drains +2d6, Entangle +2d6 for BODY only, Flash, +4d6, Ego Attack +2d6, Telekinese +13STR or +2.5d6 for damage, Transform +4d6 Cosmetic, +2d6 Minor, +1d6+1 Major.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

Not so exactly.

 

Unusual Haymakers (5er p389) add damage differently.

 

Drains +2d6, Entangle +2d6 for BODY only, Flash, +4d6, Ego Attack +2d6, Telekinese +13STR or +2.5d6 for damage, Transform +4d6 Cosmetic, +2d6 Minor, +1d6+1 Major.

First, thanks for the info and the page reference (at work, no book access).

 

I think, I may be wrong (that at work no book access thing), but those all look like 4DCs worth of Effect for each Power listed. I'd have to reference the DC Table in the Combat Section to be sure though...

[radioKAOS]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

First, thanks for the info and the page reference (at work, no book access).

 

I think, I may be wrong (that at work no book access thing), but those all look like 4DCs worth of Effect for each Power listed. I'd have to reference the DC Table in the Combat Section to be sure though...

 

No problem, you are quite welcome.

 

Yeah, my thoughts exactly, though you are right with your initial statement.

 

"Damage Bonuses from Haymakers, Martial Maneuvers, and Combat Skill Levels are not affected by Advantages. They add to an attack that has advantages at the same rate, and by the same rules, as they do to an attack with no advantages." (5er p407)

 

Seems Haymaker is one of those 'inbetweens' that we sometimes see in HERO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

OK, now that I'm home... I crossed referenced the information in p389 (the pluses radioKAOS stated) with the Damage Class Table on p403

 

All the Unusual Damage Bonuses listed are the equivelant of 20 Active Points of the Power referenced (unmodified in any way). Which is the equivelant of 4DCs of damage.

 

The sidebar on p389 is simply a fast reference of finding what +4DCs does for Powers that aren't a Normal or Killing Attack. So it appears Haymaker operates normally per the rules on p407.

 

(all page references are for 5ER)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

Hey HEROdom, I'd like some opinions and ideas to help me with a character build here. If I've got EB10d6+4d6, Increased END inside an Elemental Control, do you guys think it's cool to have a couple Naked Advantages on EB up to 14d6 (these are bought outside the framework, naturally)?

 

The book suggests not allowing naked Ads on slots but I'm not seeing how it could be abusive here. Also, given how Haymaker works, I could happily unleash an 18d6 EB with the Advantages, right? I don't need to cover myself by buying the Advantages for EB up to 18d6?

 

Hope I'm clear.

 

I also don't like or typically aprove of Naked Advantages, as they tent to undermine some of the basic principles of using Modifiers (they always apply). However, that asside, I would probably be okay allowing a single Naked Advantage to a single slot in an EC. It's just no biggie. But two or more and you might as well make a Multipower with different slots for the Advantages (not a MP of Naked Advantages, but the full Powers with Advantages).

[handsomerob]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

ok if naked advantages is where you think your character needs to go you need to take a long look at your sfx. The only time I have ever, EVER, alowed naked advantages was for a character that was desolid, and what ever he picked up to an active point cap, would become ap pen, due totaly to his special effect (atomic vibration) the biggest question is sfx on this one.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

I also don't like or typically aprove of Naked Advantages' date=' as they tent to undermine some of the basic principles of using Modifiers (they always apply). However, that asside, I would probably be okay allowing a single Naked Advantage to a single slot in an EC. It's just no biggie. But two or more and you might as well make a Multipower with different slots for the Advantages (not a MP of Naked Advantages, but the full Powers with Advantages).[/quote']

On the whole I would agree with you.

 

The one case where I believe an MP of Naked Advantages is more than warranted is guns. You buy a Gun (2D6 RKA) strait. Then you buy an MP of Naked Advantages each purchased as charges for "clips" so your Gun can now be loaded down with various specialized bullets, or you can not load the special clips and blaze away with a normal round.

 

While that could easily just be built as an MP with various RKAs in it, I like the NA option as it seems cleaner to me.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

Aw, I've been working on this post for like an hour and now I find out I was doing something wrong at the base. Seriously guys, I just undid like 2 pages of crap. I might have something to say here but I need to know what the heck happens when sticking Naked Advantages on a partially-Limited power and/or a power with Limited Advantages.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

Aw' date=' I've been working on this post for like an hour and now I find out I was doing something wrong at the base. Seriously guys, I just undid like 2 pages of crap. I might have something to say here but I need to know what the heck happens when sticking Naked Advantages on a partially-Limited power and/or a power with Limited Advantages.[/quote']

A Naked Advantage is simply a Power that can have it's Added to Another Power of the appropriate Active Point Cost (or less).

 

Penetrating for up to 60 Active Points of the Defined Power can be used to make the Defined Power Penetrating if it is used at 60 Active Points or Less.

 

that help?

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

That's what I'd been doing wrong...

 

I always assumed the "up to X AP" thing was how it was all across the board, but when you use a Naked Advantage for a single Power, as I'd be doing, you play differently. You find the Real Point difference between the Power and what the Power would be with the Advantage and this difference is the Advantage's cost. This Naked Advantage automatically gets the Advantages and Limitations of the parent Power with no effect on its cost. To automatically suffer a Limitation that's only on part of the parent Power seems unfair to me (when we're talking x5 END in particular) but I'm not sure what the alternative is. Probably something about splitting savings like you do when dealing with Linked powers in ECs.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

two things:

 

1) Naked Power Advantages and Adders should not be applied to powers in a power framw work without express GM permission.

 

2) Unless I'm not understanding your specific problem, I think you are misunderstanding the math. Buying a Naked Power Advantage for a single power is quite cost effective.

 

For example, lets say you have a 10d6, AP, Energy Blast with the Gestures Lim. This is a 75 AP power with a real cost of 60. It costs 7 End every time you use it.

 

No, lets say you wanted to add Explosion to that power. This would make it a 100 AP power with a real cost of 80. It now costs 10 End every time you use it.

 

Now, if you didn't want to always have the thing act as an Explosion, you could set the Explosion up as a Naked Advantage instead. This Naked Advantage would cost you 80-60 = 20 points. It would cost 2 End every time you use it. Gestures, and the costbreak there of, have already been figured into this cost. Obviously, you have to gesture to use the base power and thus you have to gesture to use the advantaged power.

 

By contrast, lets say you wanted that Naked Advantage to apply to ANY energy blast of up to 75 AP. Well, that would be a 37 AP power that costs 4 END per use.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Opinions on build with Naked Advantages

 

I also don't like or typically aprove of Naked Advantages' date=' as they tent to undermine some of the basic principles of using Modifiers (they always apply).[/quote']

 

I've always found that aspect of modifiers (advantages in particular) to be quite annoying, and therefor like the fact that Naked Advantages undermine that principle. Many of the GMs I game with flat out forbid it when they remember that it exists at all. But then again, most of them forbid Power Pools, and in some genres, all frameworks.