Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

[Jhaierr]

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about how the old "Mystic Masters" rules compare to the newer way of handling magic in Champions. I'm mainly thinking about how in the old MM book, they recommended making all EGO-based powers have x2 effect. In the 5th edition, that idea doesn't seem to be used.

 

Any thoughts on that? Which do you like better? I'm a huge comic-book magic fan, and I'm thinking of running a mystic campaign. I just ordered the Ultimate Mystic and the Mystic World and so forth, but I'm very curious to see what everyone else things of how things are done now compared to the old MM way.

 

(I do think that using Duplication to handle astral forms works very well, though I haven't delved into it yet.)

[Redmenace]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about how the old "Mystic Masters" rules compare to the newer way of handling magic in Champions. I'm mainly thinking about how in the old MM book, they recommended making all EGO-based powers have x2 effect. In the 5th edition, that idea doesn't seem to be used.

 

Any thoughts on that? Which do you like better? I'm a huge comic-book magic fan, and I'm thinking of running a mystic campaign. I just ordered the Ultimate Mystic and the Mystic World and so forth, but I'm very curious to see what everyone else things of how things are done now compared to the old MM way.

 

Of course now the PCs have an extra hundred points to build on. I considered doing it the former way but decided the extra points more than made up the difference. Otherwise when you have the Mystics run up against non Mystic/Mentalist villains it is a non event.

 

 

 

(I do think that using Duplication to handle astral forms works very well' date=' though I haven't delved into it yet.)[/quote']

 

All of my PCs have done it this way and it works well aside from the usual problems of having characters who can evade physical barriers. If I could offer any advice, be very aware of how your players are spending their points. An active point cap helps reign them in but they gain so mich variability with a power pool that it can be hard to keep them challenged.

 

I chose to limit the initial magic power pools to 15-30 active points with a maximum of 12- magic skill so that the players would buy fixed primary powers but also have a super mage's flexibility, eventually.

 

 

One of the other advantages to a MM campaign is that we now have a nice selection of sourcebooks:

 

Demon

Vibora Bay

Viper- some of it anyway

Until-(just barely) My campaign is an elaboration upon Project Hermes

Champions Worldwide- a number of magic heroes and villains

CKC

 

I still keep going back to Mystic Masters for inspiration though, it just seems to capture the fun and spirit.

 

PS- You've probably long since seen these but here is a link to MM's author Allen Varney's campaign logs in case you haven't

http://www.mactyre.net/october/campaign/MYSTIC.html

[Alverant]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

What I like in the new one because it's more developed, but only if you don't include the Ultimate Super-Mage from 4th edition. They still developed it more in 5th and that's a very good thing (except for the lack of a bibliography).

 

One problem with 5th ed is that it took so long to get an idea what asteral form needed. Plus it is extremely expensive (and impossible to get if the GM has an active point campaign limit) especially since you have to pay an advantage to get the asteral form different than your original form. Spending 75 points (or even getting it for free) is just simpler and involves less number crunching.

 

Would it really have been that hard for them to have "Base Asteral Form" character sheet in one of the books? How about a download for Heromaker?

 

I wish they did keep the "No Range = -1" limitation for mental powers though. Since mental powers have LOS and no range penalities, having no range reduces their usefulness more than standard ranged powers.

[Jhaierr]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

Of course now the PCs have an extra hundred points to build on. I considered doing it the former way but decided the extra points more than made up the difference. Otherwise when you have the Mystics run up against non Mystic/Mentalist villains it is a non event.

 

Hmm. Ah, that's true. It's been so long I forgot about the extra 100 points we get now. It had all been absorbed into my psyche.

 

All of my PCs have done it this way and it works well aside from the usual problems of having characters who can evade physical barriers. If I could offer any advice' date=' be very aware of how your players are spending their points.[/quote']

 

Good point!

 

Also, thanks for the link. I'd never see those logs.

[Jhaierr]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

Now I can't wait to get The Ultimate Mystic and my other books! Argh.

[Alverant]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

Is there any chance this is a PBEM campaign? I love playing super-mages and other magical characters (yet don't read much swords/sorcery fantasy books, go figure). I'd like to join if it is.

[Jhaierr]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

At the moment, it isn't. If it does turn into one, I'll definitely let you know!

[Kristopher]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

How on earth did the post that was here end up in this thread instead of the other thread...

 

 

Anyway, a bit like LL below, I really disagree with the concept of doubling the effect of Mental Powers in a particular game.

 

Of course, I also really and wholely disagree with all the kludges and wonks people come up with in their games to represent this or that "genre convention", such as "normals" taking double stun from superhuman attacks. :

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

Although I have a great deal of respect for Allan Varney, I never really agreed with the double-effect Mental Powers premise from Mystic Masters. I can't recall seeing MP being portrayed as more innately effective in that supers subgenre than any other, except for supermages' ability to make normal people forget having seen manifestations of the supernatural. Then again, at the power level where most of those characters operate, they can usually rustle up the points to make that happen even with standard MP rules.

 

OTOH I greatly prefer the Clairsentience-based Astral Form from Mystic Masters to the later Duplication/ Desolid designs. IMHO it perfectly captured how Astral Forms are depicted in comics, particularly Dr. Strange (the king of AF), without having to modify how the base Power works. If not for the default rule in 5E that Mental Powers can't be targeted via Clairsentience, I would recommend the MM approach for this type of campaign.

[Archon]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

OTOH I greatly prefer the Clairsentience-based Astral Form from Mystic Masters to the later Duplication/ Desolid designs. IMHO it perfectly captured how Astral Forms are depicted in comics, particularly Dr. Strange (the king of AF), without having to modify how the base Power works. If not for the default rule in 5E that Mental Powers can't be targeted via Clairsentience, I would recommend the MM approach for this type of campaign.

 

This is an easy one. Change the rule so mental powres can target.

[OddHat]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

Although I have a great deal of respect for Allan Varney' date=' I never really agreed with the double-effect Mental Powers premise from [i']Mystic Masters[/i]. I can't recall seeing MP being portrayed as more innately effective in that supers subgenre than any other, except for supermages' ability to make normal people forget having seen manifestations of the supernatural. Then again, at the power level where most of those characters operate, they can usually rustle up the points to make that happen even with standard MP rules.

 

OTOH I greatly prefer the Clairsentience-based Astral Form from Mystic Masters to the later Duplication/ Desolid designs. IMHO it perfectly captured how Astral Forms are depicted in comics, particularly Dr. Strange (the king of AF), without having to modify how the base Power works. If not for the default rule in 5E that Mental Powers can't be targeted via Clairsentience, I would recommend the MM approach for this type of campaign.

 

I allow players to pay 10 points for "Targetting" with Clairsentience. And yes, I like that model for Astral Forms better as well.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

I allow players to pay 10 points for "Targetting" with Clairsentience. And yes' date=' I like that model for Astral Forms better as well.[/quote']

 

BINGO.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

This is an easy one. Change the rule so mental powres can target.

 

Never said I wouldn't do that; just that since it would be a house rule, I can't recommend it to others over the official version.

[Lightray]

OTOH I greatly prefer the Clairsentience-based Astral Form from Mystic Masters to the later Duplication/ Desolid designs. IMHO it perfectly captured how Astral Forms are depicted in comics' date=' particularly Dr. Strange (the king of AF), without having to modify how the base Power works. If not for the default rule in 5E that Mental Powers can't be targeted via Clairsentience, I would recommend the MM approach for this type of campaign.[/quote']

Agree wholeheartedly. Astral Form via Duplication remains too expensive for lower-end mystics, yet is a staple of the genre.

 

Because I still had some issues with the way Astral Form via Clairsentience worked, I just worked up a new Mental Power -- Projection. Basically costed it out like Clairsentience, except that the character may use the "perception point" as the point-of-origin for both PER rolls, and origin of Mental Powers. And, of course, the visible effect makes the character vulnerable to Mental Powers targeted at the "perception point". IIRC, I also made it LOS and inherently Indirect, and gave it a "Costs END Only To Activate" advantage option.

[Alverant]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

I haven't checked out the rule changes in 5th ed, but I think Multiform would work as a substitute for Duplication. The player still only has one form active at a time, it's just that the other form is still tangible (but helpless) when activated.

 

It still suffers from the same problem I have with Duplication, reduced XP. If you buy a skill or improve your mental stats you also have to buy it for your Asteral Form. Even if it's a skill you can't use in Astral Form, you should still buy it unless somehow the character looses the knowledge when he goes Astral. For example let's say we have a high powered mage with a 60 STR TK and the Hoist skill. The TK is not bought for the Astral Form, but the mage would still need to buy the Hoist skill because he still knows the best way to lift things and would be able to coach other people if they can hear him.

 

With that in mind, is there some rules loophole that lets you Mind Link with your unconscious self so your Astral Duplicate (not Multiform) has access to all your knowledge?

[Powerhouse]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

OTOH I greatly prefer the Clairsentience-based Astral Form from Mystic Masters to the later Duplication/ Desolid designs. IMHO it perfectly captured how Astral Forms are depicted in comics, particularly Dr. Strange (the king of AF), without having to modify how the base Power works. If not for the default rule in 5E that Mental Powers can't be targeted via Clairsentience, I would recommend the MM approach for this type of campaign.

 

I like the targeting idea but does the old 4th editon astral form allow the astral form to be targeted itself? For example, in the comic books an astral form can be attacked and possibly killed. In MM, I think that if an astral can be percieved (in 5E, with a Detect Astral or Transdimensional on Senses), it can get attacked with Ego based attacks, correct?

 

BTW, nice ideas and comments Lightray.

[Jhaierr]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

Great points and notes, everyone. Thanks! I'll probably return with my own thoughts after receiving and reading the new 5th-ed books.

[Redmenace]

Re: Mystic Masters campaign (old vs. new)

 

 

I like the targeting idea but does the old 4th editon astral form allow the astral form to be targeted itself? For example, in the comic books an astral form can be attacked and possibly killed. In MM, I think that if an astral can be percieved (in 5E, with a Detect Astral or Transdimensional on Senses), it can get attacked with Ego based attacks, correct?

 

 

In MM, the Clairsentience type of Astral forms can be hit by ego based attacks, can not normally effect or be effected bypeople who are desolid by a "non-magical" super power, and are effected by the advantage "effects desolid".

 

A Astral form could be destroyed by any suppress or drain, leaving the physical body alive but unable to use it's astral form until the drain wears off.

 

Ego attacks do both stun and body to the astral form and killing it kills the physical self as well.