Summon: Weapon?

[Cantriped]

Ok, the title pretty much sums up my question. What would be the best way to handle, mechanically, a power which creates/summons permenant weapons, without resorting to

A: a Power Frame Work (since the power has to be able to go into one)

or

B: an inanly conveluted HKA/RKA build.

 

I was thinking of (most obviously) using a simple variant on the Summon or Craft Item powers (the latter having been presented as a optional rule in Fantasy Hero). Perhaps using either an "(AP+RP)=(AP of Summon)" or "([RP][x])=(Ap of Summon) formula. that way the "Summon" would account for limitations on the weapon when determining its AP value, without being inanly cheap either.

[Steve Long]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Since this is a "how to" and not a rules question per se, I've moved it. What are your thoughts on the question, Herodom Assembled?

[Zed-F]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

A power that lets you summon an HKA or RKA you can use at will, is simply an HKA or an RKA without the focus limitation. If they would otherwise be OAFs, you might take 'Restrainable' instead. If you want others to be able to use them, you can add UBO for however many people you can summon weapons for. That's not insanely complicated.

 

Otherwise, your best bet is Transform.

[Cantriped]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

I was thinking of using a transform.

the reason I want to avoid building the "weapon" itself into the core "summon" ability is that while its possible to create a permenant or quasi permentant "weapon" using such a method it would require such a range of high end Advantages that have nothing to do with the "weapon" being created that the Active point cap on the powers would be bloated well out of proportion with the ability gained.

 

Perhaps it will help if I explain the usage. In another thread I presented a magic system (in a sense) based upon the Anime/Manga Full Metal Alchemist, in which the "Alchemists" literally transmute one thing into another, including creating finished items from raw materials.

Because the transmutation itself is an instant (or quasi-instant) effect, but the result could perpetuate itself for some time, Summon and Transform powers would be best for the mechanical concepts, but Transform requires a "Heal back" condition, and summon is priced for summoning entire characters, not objects or individual powers.

Thus my question is I supose which power would require the least Futzing with to get it to do what I want within the bounds of the system I'm using.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Do you want a weapon you'll be using yourself, or do you want to be able to summon swords and bows for all your mates too?

[Solomon]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Generally speaking, I'd go with a KA Usable by Others. Yes, it's expensive, but it is a powerful ability. Such a character could conceivably arm a whole army or make a fortune selling his weapons.

 

Maybe I'm really really stretching the rules here, but a possible compromise might be:

- Buy KA Usable by Others only up to the number of close associates (say, x8 targets).

- Buy the Perk Wealth as a Power with the special effect of summoning weapons.

[kave99]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

if weapons are Equipment in your game and are not paid for with points then i would go for transform [major] appropriate raw material to weapons with the heal back as braking the weapon and /or some form of dispel magic . the alchemist would need the skill conger weapon and make a skill roll{int or ego based 3pts} I would also require a -0 lim cant create weapons in excess of the total body per day. eg 1d6 transform could make 1 great sword [6body] or 2 short swords [3 body each] per day. if characters have to pay points for there equipment than buy the hth attack with no focus lim as previously suggested.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (vs. PD), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Variable Targets (+1/4), Continuous (+1) (75 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4); Real Cost: 50

[cutsleeve]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

If you wanna get weird you can build it as a summon slavishly loyal.

 

Just give it all the physical properties of a sword and the disadvantages of a sword. Then just buy it so you can summon miltiples. If you give it movement powers you can have a dancing sword. Let it retain its ability to talk and you can have long involved conversations about how the last warrior who used him was so much better then you. After awhile though youll come to understand why the last guy stuck it into a rock and then dumped it in a lake (filled with pirahna).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Also is it a game in which you pay for equipment? Are you summoning 'normal' equipment or extraordinary stuff?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (vs. PD)' date=' Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Variable Targets (+1/4), Continuous (+1) (75 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4); Real Cost: 50[/quote']

KS Beat me to it. Physical Manifestation is a good fit for what you describe.

[Cantriped]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

The overall campaign setting is Heroic-level Steampunk, thus Characters arn't paying points for equipment. There isn't any "Magic" equipment per-say.

As for ballence problems, it isn't likely, an Alchemist probably couldn't produce a huge number of items of any sort at a time without making a friggen crator (The arms don't jsut pop out of no-where, the mass nessessary material has to come from somewhere), rate of breakage on their weapons would be higher as well due to poor craftsmenship (AkA, failed skill rolls). but once "created" won't just disappear if the Alchemist goes poof or hand em out or sells em.

[Cantriped]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

So far its looking like a Transform would be my best bet then. as far as needing the least futzing with to get what I need out of it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

I wouldn't do Transform.

 

Perhaps Expendable Focii should be looked into.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Permanent creation (or near enough) is a difficult thing in Hero. Transform is probably the closest it comes BUT for a specific purpose like this, I'd be inclined (in a heroic level game where all you are doing is gaining access to weapons you could get hold of anyway without spending points) to do something a bit whack, and maybe buy an extradimensional movement power: basically you can reach into a dimension where weapons exist and just take them: a sort of pocket armoury (or you go to another dimension where time passes much faster and make the weapons, come back and hand them out...but that has a lot more potential sfx complications - like healing, for example.

 

It all comes down to what your game master will let you get away with - i.e. what is a reasonable cost for what you want and is it built so that it is not going to unbalance the game?

 

As I understand it, you want to be able to use weapons that you could get hold of anyway, and arm yourself and others with them.

 

The advantage of the power is that you can pluck the weapons from the air, so to speak, so you are never disarmed, and you can equip several people.

 

So long as the EDM had some limits that would enable the GM to stop you using it is a villain figured out what you were doing, I wouldn't be too concerned about doing it this way.

 

My answer would be very different for a superhero campaign where you had to pay points for attacks (unless it was a really high powered campaign and you could only 'create' low powered 'real' weapons)

[Solomon]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

I'm rather wary of the jack-of-all-trades solution "Extradimensional Movement to my home rules dimension". KA Usable by Others still looks the best fit to me, but if I was the GM, I'd rather let my player build it on Transform than on XDM. It does break the "don't use power X to simulate power Y" metarule, but so does XDM, and on the plus side it's intuitively linked to the SFX. "Until object breaks or wears down" looks like an acceptable "healing" condition for such a Transform.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

A Transform with a Side Effect: Causes Significent Damage To Environment sounds like a good start for this ability. So long as you are creating "normal" weapons/equipment available.

 

The same Power can even be used for repairing objects. The Limitation doesn't even have to have any immediate effect, and can simulate the karmic transition of one material to another when their values are vastly different (i.e. turning lead into gold is dangerous).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

I'm rather wary of the jack-of-all-trades solution "Extradimensional Movement to my home rules dimension". KA Usable by Others still looks the best fit to me' date=' but if I was the GM, I'd rather let my player build it on Transform than on XDM. It [i']does[/i] break the "don't use power X to simulate power Y" metarule, but so does XDM, and on the plus side it's intuitively linked to the SFX. "Until object breaks or wears down" looks like an acceptable "healing" condition for such a Transform.

 

 

....but in heroic campaigns, weapons are not powers, they are props. Transform has to be glitched to make it work: 'works until it doesn't' is hardly a proper 'healing' condition to my mind - that might be forever for (say) a sword. Mind you, I'm arguing that it doesn't really matter what you use so log as the build is right - i.e. there are a commensurate number of points spend and it is not an automatic power - it can be prevented from working by someone with the right knowledge. Anyway, I quite like the transform mechanic, it is just a shame it is called on to do so much

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

In a game like FMA, where Alchemy is basicaly transmutation.. Transform works and the heal back would be another Transformation to Original Shape.

 

The only reaon I don't like Transform for this is it works just fine - but overrides every other power as you simply grab stuff and "Transform" it into something else.

 

You'd only ever need 1 Power per character, the bigger the Transform the faster it works, but beyond that there's no variety.

[Solomon]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

....but in heroic campaigns' date=' weapons are not powers, they are props. Transform has to be glitched to make it work: 'works until it doesn't' is hardly a proper 'healing' condition to my mind - that might be forever for (say) a sword. Mind you, I'm arguing that it doesn't really matter what you use so log as the build is right - i.e. there are a commensurate number of points spend and it is not an automatic power - it can be prevented from working by someone with the right knowledge. Anyway, I quite like the transform mechanic, it is just a shame it is called on to do so much [/quote']

 

I feel quite the same about XDM.

It's my understanding that this power was going to be used to create weapons out of thin air. If that's the case, I would allow for "Until object breaks or is transformed back" as an healing condition, because that woudn't impact game balance. Even if the healing condition was "heals back after an hour", che character could just create a new toy in a pinch, after all.

If the power could be used to transform an opponent's weapon to something useless, OTOH, I'd agree more stringent conditions should be expected.

And I agree that as long as the final cost is appropriate the actual mechanic is of secondary concern.

 

Anybody wants to try the "summon" angle? We can build a sword as a character if we set our mind to it, isn't it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

I feel quite the same about XDM.

It's my understanding that this power was going to be used to create weapons out of thin air. If that's the case, I would allow for "Until object breaks or is transformed back" as an healing condition, because that woudn't impact game balance. Even if the healing condition was "heals back after an hour", che character could just create a new toy in a pinch, after all.

If the power could be used to transform an opponent's weapon to something useless, OTOH, I'd agree more stringent conditions should be expected.

And I agree that as long as the final cost is appropriate the actual mechanic is of secondary concern.

 

Anybody wants to try the "summon" angle? We can build a sword as a character if we set our mind to it, isn't it?

 

 

I'm particularly keen to build 'Summon reluctant sword'

[Cantriped]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

THe system is a conversion of the FMA conception, and a single Transform alone wouldn't be appropite to simulate the system properly, so it uses a VPP, Allbeit EXTREMELY limited (were talking -7 in limitations). with a lot of caveats that ended up bunched into one limitation since they don't effect Every power in the Pool but how the pool is applied.

And example of what I'm looking for is early on, the protagonist of FMA uses alchemy to make a spear out of the pavement floor. considering the SFX its mostly just a Summon: "Item" with SFX (and limitations) representing Conservation of Mass. much like how construction of somthing like a Golem is presented in the FHG. the Craft Item optional rule (that I'm so fond of citing) is also essentially a variant on Summon Mechanics. except that the AP was based upon the items RP cost, and the "loyalty" modifiers was replaced with a buttload of automatic Extra Time.

 

I would jsut use said craft item rule, but the Automatic Extra time would conflict with the systems existing time constraints for Alchemy, and the RP/based Active Point cost would make it too easy to perform.

 

Thus my quandry, do I simply muck with Summon to create an appropiate variant, or do I go with the "Jack of all trades" Transform method which can mimic any sfx, but usually poorly. My real problem with useing Transform though is the whole Dice of effect thing, players are already gonna have to make Skill rolls out the wazoo for Alchemy, but to throw in another roll on top of that when it shouldn't be necessary and dosn't fit the SFX would jsut drive me crazy. Not to mention that I'd have to account for the DEF of the material being transmuted.

There is a certain amount of precedent for using Summon for non-creature constructs, FHG presents to Summon based spell which creates a Base, the active points being the cost of the base I believe, but I'd have to check. If I were to go with the Summon method I would likely nix the whole Loayalty issue as its irrelevant to weapons (or bases and vehicals for that matter) and then base the Active points on the Active points of the item being created. that would follow the summon mechanics tradition of completely ignoring limitations no matter how much they may make the weapon suck (not being sardonic). while still keeping the AP of the power within a reasonable range for the item being created. The only problem with summon would be the number of said items an Alchemist can create at a time, which, realisticly wouldn't be limited to 1 at a time. but I find this a much easier rule to ignore then the problematic Dice of effect issue of Transform mechanics.

 

Slighly off topic but as anyone noticed how difficult it seems to be to deal with Weapon mechanics in an elegant method using existing powers. I mean building them as H/RKAs is fine in a superheroic campaign where everything is generalized, but in a more realism based game trying to compensate for weapon properties can be a real pain in the gluteous maximus. But thats a topic for another thread.

 

Well now that I've writen a friggen novel I'll leave ya'll to digest.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Use Standard Effect on the Transform and you not only remove a dice roll but you, the GM, at least know how long it will change any given object.

[Cantriped]

Re: Summon: Weapon?

 

Thats... a very good point. Rep to yee!

[cutsleeve]

Re: Summon: Weapon? using summon redux

 

I posted this on another summon weapon thread and it was shot down because it will make new players heads hurt.

 

I just did this for the hell of it please dont be to harsh about math or accuracy or anything like that its just a general example of how this might be done.

 

Summon: Big Sword +1/4 cost: 51

 

Big Sword - built as automaton

Str,Dex,Con,Int,Ego,Pre = 0

Body 10

Comliness 10

 

Pd 10 cost 10

Ed 10 cost 10

Spd,Rec,End,Stun,Run,Swim,Leap 0

 

Disadvantages:

Distinctive Feature: Not Concealable, Always Noticed (generally swordlike) points: 20

Phsyical Limitation: All The Time, Fully Imparing (has the manipulation of a sword)

Physical Limitation: Str,Dex,Con,Int,Pre = 0 points 80

 

Abilities:

Life support: Immune to all diseases and poisons 20pts, safe environments (high and low pressure, vaccum, high radiation. intense cold) 7pts, doesnt need to eat or sleep 6pts, Doesnt need to breath 10pts, immortal 5pts. total cost: 48

 

Automaton Abilities:

Cannot be stunned 15pts, doesnt bleed 15pts, no hit locations 10pts, takes no stun 60pts total cost: 100

 

Damage Resistance: 10PD 10ED Cost: 10

 

Killing Attack/Hand to Hand:2D6 +1 stun multiplier (+/4), 0Endurance (+1/2), Usable By Others (+1/4), Strength Minimum 17 (-3/4), Required Hands 2 (-1/2) AC: 60 RC:26

 

Hows that you summon a random Big sword and after you are done using it it wander off into the forest to be happy and free with the rest of the big swords. Oh wait 0 ego and int ok it just lays there happily with all the other big swords or something like that.

 

I think we should name the sword too. Hows Bubba sound? :D