A New Use For Hardened

[The Main Man]

Killing Attacks can purchase the power advantage Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4 per +1).

Hardened (+1/4) is used for defending against Armor Piercing (+1/2) and Penetrating (+1/2), as well as Indirect (+1/4-3/4), two of which are for increasing damage of an attack.

I was thinking that maybe Hardened can defend against up to 2 Levels of Increased STUN Multiplier per 1 Level.

[austenandrews]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Intriguing idea.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

That's a great idea. Probably a little too weak too, since increased STUN multiplier is so uncommon. But in addition to it's other uses, a perfect addend to Hardened.

[Phil]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Nice idea. Repped!

[Dust Raven]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

My gut reaction wants to make this a seperate Advantage, like what is done for Teleportation and Entangles and such. But it really depends on how often the Increased STUNx comes into play. And what about Decreased STUNx? The Modifier runds up and down a scale. What would the Hardened (or whatever) Advantage do exactly? Would decrease the STUNx of any Killing Attack, thereby affecting all KA, or would it simply negage the STUNx Advantage and leave the STUNx Limitation alone?

[prestidigitator]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

I'm against Modifiers on defenses that change how the attacker does the actual damage calculation. Hardened doesn't normally do this because it merely affects the amount of defenses the defender can apply (AP) and whether or not there is a minimum limit on damage (Penetrating, where the attacker can calculate the Penetrating amount and the defender can determine whether or not to use it).

 

A defense changing the multiplier an attacker uses to calculate the amount of Stun being delivered is a whole different headache.

[The Main Man]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

My gut reaction wants to make this a seperate Advantage' date=' like what is done for Teleportation and Entangles and such. But it really depends on how often the Increased STUNx comes into play. And what about Decreased STUNx? The Modifier runds up and down a scale. What would the Hardened (or whatever) Advantage do exactly? Would decrease the STUNx of any Killing Attack, thereby affecting all KA, or would it simply negage the STUNx Advantage and leave the STUNx Limitation alone?[/quote']

In the case of this use of Hardened, I figured that it could stop up to 2 Levels of Increased STUN Multiplier, because as the HERO System states: A defense to a power should generally be half the cost of the attack.

Hardened +1/4 = +2 STUN Multiplier

In the case of Decreased STUN Multiplier, I say that Hardened would have no effect, being that DSM is a Limitation, and no Advantage that I know of has any effect on Limitations, and besides, the Decreased STUN Multiplier is, so to speak, punishment enough, being a Limitation after all.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

In the case of this use of Hardened, I figured that it could stop up to 2 Levels of Increased STUN Multiplier, because as the HERO System states: A defense to a power should generally be half the cost of the attack.

Hardened +1/4 = +2 STUN Multiplier

 

In the case of Decreased STUN Multiplier, I say that Hardened would have no effect, being that DSM is a Limitation, and no Advantage that I know of has any effect on Limitations, and besides, the Decreased STUN Multiplier is, so to speak, punishment enough, being a Limitation after all.

So people can read your post. You may want to stay away from white text color in the future.

[The Main Man]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

It's my forum style (Dark Background). Sorry.

[austenandrews]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

It's best if people stick with forum defalt colors, guaranteed to work with all styles. IMHO.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

It seems way too powerful to me, to add that on to the existing effects of Hardened. Your way a +1/4 advantage negates up to +1 1/2 of Advantages, Armor Piercing, Penetrating, and +2 STUNx. That's a six-to-one advantage, not two-to-one!

[Dust Raven]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Which is why I think it should be a seperate Advantage, if allowed at all.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Which is why I think it should be a seperate Advantage' date=' if allowed at all.[/quote']

I totally concur.

 

I've been thinking about this, and think I may play around with a +1/4 advantage ... call it "Toughened" that can be bought at multiple levels for resistant defences and reduces Stun Mods on KA's by 1 per level.

 

Still have you work though a few models to see how to make it work on partially toughened defences, but I think the idea may have merit

[The Main Man]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

It seems way too powerful to me' date=' to add that on to the existing effects of Hardened. Your way a +1/4 advantage negates up to +1 1/2 of Advantages, Armor Piercing, Penetrating, and +2 STUNx. That's a six-to-one advantage, not two-to-one![/quote']

 

Either you read me wrong, or one of us doesn't understand Hardened.

To my understanding, if you are faced with an attack that has Armor Piercing and Penetrating, you have to pick one; you can't negate both of them with only one level of Hardened.

That's why you buy multiple levels of Hardened, and conversely buy multiple levels of Armor Piercing or Penetrating; the effects to not stack.

In the case of Hardened vs. Increased STUN Multiplier, if it were level for level, then it somewhat contradicts the Defense vs. Attack cost principles of the HERO system.

So, if you buy 1 level of Hardened (+1/4), you can negate up to 2 levels of Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2).

If your opponent bought 3 Levels of Increased STUN Multiplier (+3/4), +1 STUN Multiplier would still get through because you could only negate 2 levels of it.

This brings the uses of Hardened to the following:

1 Level Hardened = 1 Level Armor Piercing

1 Level Hardened = 1 Level Penetrating

1 Level Hardened = Indirect (any Level)

1 Level Hardened = 2 Levels Increased STUN Multiplier

Now am I clear?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

I have to kind of agree with Phil that Hardened already covers a lot of ground and I don't see a real need for this added effect. Of course it hasn't come up in my games where obviously it occured in yours so maybe I am missing something.

 

Personally I think this is once again addressing the STN lotto issue and I would rather fix the problem than treat the effects. If you like the STN lotto as is, I would just have people buy extra defense, only vs STN of killing attacks to cover this effect. Just my two cents.

 

______________________________________________________

Fortune favors the well-prepared - Edna

[The Main Man]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Actually, it has never been an issue in my games.

In fact, Killing Attacks are circumstantially rare in my Superhero campaign.

Not quite so obvious, eh?

No, this began as just a thought.

So what if Hardened covers so much ground?

It doesn't actually do anything by itself anyway, so why not slap this on to it?

Just because Hardened can defend against Indirect doesn't mean that I'll always get to use it any more than against Killing Attacks with Increased STUN Multiplier.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Either you read me wrong, or one of us doesn't understand Hardened.

To my understanding, if you are faced with an attack that has Armor Piercing and Penetrating, you have to pick one; you can't negate both of them with only one level of Hardened.

That's why you buy multiple levels of Hardened, and conversely buy multiple levels of Armor Piercing or Penetrating; the effects to not stack.

In the case of Hardened vs. Increased STUN Multiplier, if it were level for level, then it somewhat contradicts the Defense vs. Attack cost principles of the HERO system.

So, if you buy 1 level of Hardened (+1/4), you can negate up to 2 levels of Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2).

If your opponent bought 3 Levels of Increased STUN Multiplier (+3/4), +1 STUN Multiplier would still get through because you could only negate 2 levels of it.

This brings the uses of Hardened to the following:

1 Level Hardened = 1 Level Armor Piercing

1 Level Hardened = 1 Level Penetrating

1 Level Hardened = Indirect (any Level)

1 Level Hardened = 2 Levels Increased STUN Multiplier

Now am I clear?

Yes but 1 Level of Hardened can block any one of those advantages as long as that's the only incoming advantage being tossed at it. Making it very effective an Advantage for defenders.

[BNakagawa]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

How does this work if you have defenses that are only partially hardened?

 

IMO, this variant actively encourages people to purchases things like:

 

1/1 armor, x4 hardened.

 

which does not sit well with me.

[The Main Man]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

You can't buy partially Hardened defenses (check the main book), and the build you just mentioned is condemned in the same text.

[DangerousDan]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Killing Attacks can purchase the power advantage Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4 per +1).

Hardened (+1/4) is used for defending against Armor Piercing (+1/2) and Penetrating (+1/2), as well as Indirect (+1/4-3/4), two of which are for increasing damage of an attack.

I was thinking that maybe Hardened can defend against up to 2 Levels of Increased STUN Multiplier per 1 Level.

 

I don't like the idea, won't use it, won't allow it in my game. Don't let me stop you, though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

You can't buy partially Hardened defenses (check the main book)' date=' and the build you just mentioned is condemned in the same text.[/quote']

The reference is 5ER p115 for those who are curious.

 

You can, however, purchase one DEF that is Hardened and another that is not.

Flak Vest: 3PD/3ED Hardened

Personal Force Field: 15PD/15ED

 

is perfectly legal.

[Frenchman]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Which means that your 3 points of hardened defense can stop up to 2 stun per body rolled on the KA. If its a big one, thats a lot of stun. I don't like it because it doesn't scale at all.

Hardened vs. Penetrating doesn't stop all the penetrating damage, only as much as you have hardened defense.

One level of hardened does stop all of the defense reduction of an AP attack, but if theres only a little bit of harded defense, it still doesn't matter much.

For this to work well, I think you would need to do something like have each level of hardened double the value of the hardened defense vs. stun, up to the additional stun gained from the +StunX - so 4 PD hardened would could stop up to 8 stun from a 1d6 KA +1 StunX which rolled 4 Body, 12 Stun (Rolls of 4, 3). 4 Stun from it being 4 defense, and another 4 for it being hardened against +StunX

[Sean Waters]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

How does this work if you have defenses that are only partially hardened?

 

IMO, this variant actively encourages people to purchases things like:

 

1/1 armor, x4 hardened.

 

which does not sit well with me.

 

 

I don't see the problem:

 

20 pd, 1 of which is 4xhardened.

 

v 28 stun AP attack

 

28-1=27 points to get through the (halved) 20 pd = 17 points through.

 

v 8dice penetrating attack (doing 28 stun, no 1s or 6s)

 

28-10=18, it let at least 8 stun through so the hardened did not help at all. If the attack had been (say) 4d6 doing 14 stun it should let 4 stun through but the 1 hardened catches that and it lets 3 through.

 

Against indirect, well, unless it is non-personal then it does not help anyway. If it is a force wall then the rest of the attack is getting through anyway - having one hardened DEF won't help much.

 

Now against the increased stun multiple I do see the problem, but:

 

1. I've never seen a convincing argument yet to allow increased stun mutliple.

 

2. Presumably you could scale it: each DC it applies to is stpped by 1 hardened DEF, so if you had a 4d6 RKA that did 14 BODY, the 1 hardened def applies to 1DC (or 1 point), so you do (assuming you rolled a 3 stun multiple) (4x13)+(3x1)= 55 stun, rather than the 56 you'd have managed otherwise. Small investment in defence = small benefit.

[The Main Man]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

I don't see the problem:

 

20 pd, 1 of which is 4xhardened.

 

v 28 stun AP attack

 

28-1=27 points to get through the (halved) 20 pd = 17 points through.

 

v 8dice penetrating attack (doing 28 stun, no 1s or 6s)

 

28-10=18, it let at least 8 stun through so the hardened did not help at all. If the attack had been (say) 4d6 doing 14 stun it should let 4 stun through but the 1 hardened catches that and it lets 3 through.

 

Against indirect, well, unless it is non-personal then it does not help anyway. If it is a force wall then the rest of the attack is getting through anyway - having one hardened DEF won't help much.

 

Now against the increased stun multiple I do see the problem, but:

 

1. I've never seen a convincing argument yet to allow increased stun mutliple.

 

2. Presumably you could scale it: each DC it applies to is stpped by 1 hardened DEF, so if you had a 4d6 RKA that did 14 BODY, the 1 hardened def applies to 1DC (or 1 point), so you do (assuming you rolled a 3 stun multiple) (4x13)+(3x1)= 55 stun, rather than the 56 you'd have managed otherwise. Small investment in defence = small benefit.

 

Nice analysis. I think I will rep you. Yeah, I will.

Yet again, I am amazed at my relatively fledgling status (and I am a god to my friends) at the HERO system.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A New Use For Hardened

 

Nice analysis. I think I will rep you. Yeah, I will.

Yet again, I am amazed at my relatively fledgling status (and I am a god to my friends) at the HERO system.

 

Much obliged but we're all fledglings really.

 

Well, apart from OddHat. And ghost-angel. And zornwil. And...

 

OK, you and I, mate: fledglings.