Two-Weapon Fighting

[Vanguard]

Currently, TwF is a "skill" that is basically a modification of the Sweep Manuever and all that entails (IE: You have to have Rapid, in order to move and attack with your two weapons, etc). And for 10 pnts, it's expense doesn't really justify it's abilities, IMO.

 

Now, this has, for some reason, always set my teeth on edge since all the other Game Systems I've played in has entirely different mechanics for TwF.

 

So, I was wondering if any of you have made any alterations to it or if you even use it at all.

 

Basically, the way I've been thinking about it and have envisioned it in my mind as working, is thus: When you purchase TwF, you can do just that. You fight with two weapons and each weapon is independant of each other. You don't get the "sweep" penalities because you're not sweeping, you attacking with two weapons.

 

Now, there are some restrictions to it, like you have to split up your Levels between the two weapons. So if if you have 2 combat levels with swords and decided to yank out that other blade you have to choose if you want to apply the +2 to your main hand, make it +1/+1 or apply them to your off hand. I you happen to have martial arts manuevers, you can use different manuevers with each weapon but you do suffer the worst modifiers of the two manuevers.

 

To me, this would best portray the two-weapon fighter since with the current incarnation you just can't do some things with TwF because it has to follow the Sweep rules (unless I'm missing something, in which case, this whole post is moot).

 

You would not be able to use the Sweep manuever with the Revised TwF unless the GM specifically allowed it, since you'd be dishing out booku damage if you were allowed to strike 4 times in a phase.

 

In any case, what do you of Herodom think about this? What kind of problems can you forsee that I cannot?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Well, let's look at what 2 W F actually gives you under the current system. We'll use the 2 sword guy, not the range guy.

 

It provides limited ambidexterity, which offsets the -3 OCV Off Hand penalty. That's three Penalty Skill Levels when fighting w/ 2 weapons - 6 points (seems reasonable for a tight group)

 

It provides +2 OCV to offset Sweep penalties when fighting w/ 2 weapons. That's two more PSL's, so 4 points.

 

It either allows access to a maneuver not otherwise permitted (like a Martial maneuver, which would normally cost 3-5 points), or reduces the DCV penalty for doing so from 1/2 to -2 (or -1), which is several DCV levels with a limitation.

 

So that's a value of over 10 points which you receive for 10 points. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

If you want to be able to sweep as a half phase action, that costs a further 5 points. That doesn't sound at all unreasonable to me either.

 

Now' date=' this has, for some reason, always set my teeth on edge since all the other Game Systems I've played in has entirely different mechanics for TwF.[/quote']

 

Well, I know d20 has a mechanic. Their mechanic is that 2 weapon fighting applies heavy "To Hit" penalties (OCV penalties in Hero). That's like Hero.

 

These penalties are reduced if you buy Ambidexterity. They are also reduced if you buy 2 Weapon Fighting. Hero allows you to combine a limited form Ambidexterity with 2 weapon fighting. I would allow full Ambidexterity at a discount for a character who had 2 weapon fighting (3 points to upgrade those three 2 point PSL's to 3 point PSL's). That also seems very similar to me.

 

You can buy some advanced 2 weapon fighting abilities which permit more attacks with your off hand in d20. You can also buy additional PSL's in Hero, so that's similar.

 

In d20, fighting with 2 weapons requires a full attack action, and in Hero it requires a full phase. That seems similar as well. In Hero, you can buy that down to a half phase, and someone probably published a feat to allow it as a partial action in d20.

 

So what's different? Both systems have base mechanics for attacking with two weapons. Both allow the penalties to be bought down in some fashion. Both systems also have a means to attack multiple times with one weapon (Hero has Sweep and D&D has its Base Attack Bonus rules).

 

The major difference is that Hero has dovetailed the two rules. They both provide the ability to make multiple attacks, so why should the rules be significantly different?

[Outsider]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

If you dont like the mechanic presented, you can also just buy up your speed to double what it was, with the extra speed limited to attacks with the off hand only. No movement, no recoveries, no perception rolls, just attacks. Of course, it will probably be more than 10 points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Hey Hugh;

 

You're out of touch slightly with the d20 TWF rules; yes, they do apply -To Hit penalties, however, there is no longer an Ambidexterity ruling. It's now simply "two-weapon fighting," ambidex went the way of the Carter Administration.

 

Second, there are two key things to keep in mind while using TWF in d20: the first is that you can only use your second weapon when you expend both your Move Action and your Standard Action; the most distance you can move is a 5' step (one hex, basically). Second, the best you'll have is a -2/-2 penalty, including both the Feat (TWF) and a light off-hand weapon.

 

Basically, unless you're set up properly for it, you can't attack with both weapons; you always get the advantage of using one or the other, but not both. My understanding in HERO is that TWF is a special effect built on sweep; something with which I strongly disagree. You can, however, with minimal effort, simply keep the rules as they are and enforce similar principles.

 

For example, you can only Sweep with a Full Action, you can only Rapid Fire with a Full Action, so reasonably you can only use both weapons as a Full Action. There's step one.

 

Second, there are the normal penalties for wielding both weapons; the reason in d20 why you want them to be distinct is because they often have different damage ranges & effects; in HERO because all damage is bought on a chart there's a set variance; you won't see a d8+1 weapon, or even a d8 weapon; simply d6, d6+1, d61/2, 2d6. You don't have the normal d20 "add 1" modifier, and because d20 is built using an integrated critical-hit table, that changes weapon stats as well.

 

In HERO, using STR Minima you can change things slightly, but your better is to make sure the weapons in the campaign have some extra flavor when possible. Anyway, rambling again. Sorry.

 

Make two separate attack rolls; one for each hand. Yes, it goes straight against canon, but hey, you asked for options. Two attack rolls, one using the STR minima rules to add damage, the other dealing straight damage. Apply normal OCV/DCV penalties as necessary. You can also expand your skills in the TWF area to fight defensively (add DCVs) and so on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Hey Hugh;

 

You're out of touch slightly with the d20 TWF rules; yes, they do apply -To Hit penalties, however, there is no longer an Ambidexterity ruling. It's now simply "two-weapon fighting," ambidex went the way of the Carter Administration.

 

Ah yes - 3.5! Nice analogy there, as I suspect there are many people who would have welcomed Carter back in the Reagan years, just as many people would think the inability to be Ambidextrous without Two Weapon Fighting skills (or the lack of any penalties for using the off hand) is missing something. Be that as it may, thanks for the clarification.

 

Second' date=' there are two key things to keep in mind while using TWF in d20: the first is that you can only use your second weapon when you expend both your Move Action and your Standard Action; the most distance you can move is a 5' step (one hex, basically). Second, the best you'll have is a -2/-2 penalty, including both the Feat (TWF) and a light off-hand weapon.[/quote']

 

And a Sweep requires use of a full action, just like the Full Attack option in d20. You can also have the exact same penalty in Hero - buy PSL's to wipe out the off hand penalty when fighting with a light weapon in your off hand, and don't buy PSL's to reduce the to hit penalty and you Sweep at -2 on both attack rolls.

 

Basically' date=' unless you're set up properly for it, you can't attack with both weapons; you always get the advantage of using one or the other, but not both.[/quote']

 

Since you need a full phase action to Sweep, this is unchanged in Hero.

 

My understanding in HERO is that TWF is a special effect built on sweep; something with which I strongly disagree. You can, however, with minimal effort, simply keep the rules as they are and enforce similar principles.

 

For example, you can only Sweep with a Full Action, you can only Rapid Fire with a Full Action, so reasonably you can only use both weapons as a Full Action. There's step one.

 

So far it's still a Sweep.

 

Second, there are the normal penalties for wielding both weapons; the reason in d20 why you want them to be distinct is because they often have different damage ranges & effects; in HERO because all damage is bought on a chart there's a set variance; you won't see a d8+1 weapon, or even a d8 weapon; simply d6, d6+1, d61/2, 2d6. You don't have the normal d20 "add 1" modifier, and because d20 is built using an integrated critical-hit table, that changes weapon stats as well.

 

Make two separate attack rolls; one for each hand. Yes, it goes straight against canon, but hey, you asked for options. Two attack rolls, one using the STR minima rules to add damage, the other dealing straight damage. Apply normal OCV/DCV penalties as necessary. You can also expand your skills in the TWF area to fight defensively (add DCVs) and so on.

 

All of these things can be done with CSL's, except for the "two attacks using separate die rolls". I could see two ways around this. First, allow for a skill (say 5 points - picked out of the air) that allows your second attack to roll weven if the first one misses. Second, design your character with a naked Trigger advantage to use the second weapon, rather than using Sweep for that particular atack.

 

However, it seems like a lot of hassle to me. Hero already has an integrated mechanic (Sweep/Rapid Attack) for firing multiple shots in a phase. The mechanics won't be exactly the same as d20 . Hero also, IMO, allows considerably greater versatility for such a character. For example:

 

- in Hero, I can buy the full phase down to a half phase - why can't I do this in D&D (easy - make a feat)

 

- In Hero, I can customize my penalties. I could buy one PSL instead of two and voila - I'm -1/-1. You can't do that in d20 nor can you be -3/-3. [Hero is more granular than d20 Feats]

 

- In Hero, there is a DCV penalty fighting with two weapons - I believe this is more accurate. Historically, fencing developed the "present your side only" style because this gave your opponent less to hit. With two weapons, you have to face your opponent squarely, thus presenting a larger target area. Of course, you could also buy DCV skill levels to offset this drawback. [Most historical 2 weapon combat styles, as I understand it, generally used the secondary weapon to parry, not to attack.]

 

- I can choose from one phase to the next how many bonus attacks to make with Sweep, and my combat penalties will vary accordingly. In d20, how does a 1st leve;l character with a sword and a shield Sacrifice accuracy to strike multiple times? ANSWER: he doesn't. How does a 13th level character sacrifice his ability to strike multiple times to make one strike more accurate? ANSWER: he doesn't. Hero adds options such as these to characters designed with this in mind.

 

As I've said before, however, the bottom line to me is to duplicate flavour, not mechanics, from other systems. Can I fight with two weapons in Hero? yes, absolutely. Will the mechanics precisely match d20? No. Nor should they, in my opinion - if I want to play d20 mechanics, I'll simply play d20. YMMV

[knightguard]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

There are several ways around some of the disadvantages.

 

 

I have a character who has two weapons fighting

 

payed for the actual skill at 10 pt as well as rapid attack and autofire rapid.

[austenandrews]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

It sounds like you want 2WF to have the benefits of Sweep (2 attacks per Phase) without the penalties. If you eliminate Sweep as a maneuver to use with 2WF, the penalties are -2 OCV for the second attack and 1/2 DCV. The OCV penalty is gone for 4 pts. The DCV penalty is trickier. I don't know of any canonical way to eliminate 1/2 DCV. However we can extrapolate. 1/2 DCV for a Power is a -1/4 Limitation. If we assume a +1/4 Naked Advantage to counteract it, enough for a 4d6 HKA with Weapons of Opportunity (-1/2) (the Fantasy Hero assumption for Follow-Through Attack) and Only With Sweep (-1/2), that's 7 points. So in theory, for 11 points you get two attacks at no penalty.

 

That only leaves the Off-Hand Penalty that regular 2WF pays to eliminate. For regular 2WF, that costs 6 points. Personally I think that's the ripoff part, paying 6 pts to do something with two weapons when you could do with one weapon at no penalty. My proposed solution? A 1 pt. Weapon Familiarity: 2WF that eliminates offhand penalties.

 

So that's what I figure you're looking at: 12 pts for two penalty-free attacks per Phase (or 17 pts if you go with the canonical Off-Hand Penalty).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

The DCV penalty is trickier. I don't know of any canonical way to eliminate 1/2 DCV. However we can extrapolate. 1/2 DCV for a Power is a -1/4 Limitation. If we assume a +1/4 Naked Advantage to counteract it' date=' enough for a 4d6 HKA with Weapons of Opportunity (-1/2) (the Fantasy Hero assumption for Follow-Through Attack) and Only With Sweep (-1/2), that's 7 points. So in theory, for 11 points you get two attacks at no penalty.[/quote']

 

+ X DCV, only when DCV halved (-1). More restricted, "only when DCV halved (-1), only when using the Sweep maneuver to attack with 2 weapons (-2)". That 7 points you suggest would be enough for +6 DCV, bringing anyone with a 7 DCV to 13, halved is still 7. In a fantasy game, I think 7 points is an adequate price for avoiding the DCV halving. Maybe it would be higher in a game where DCV's are generally higher.

[austenandrews]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

+ X DCV' date=' only when DCV halved (-1). More restricted, "only when DCV halved (-1), only when using the Sweep maneuver to attack with 2 weapons (-2)". That 7 points you suggest would be enough for +6 DCV, bringing anyone with a 7 DCV to 13, halved is still 7. In a fantasy game, I think 7 points is an adequate price for avoiding the DCV halving. Maybe it would be higher in a game where DCV's are generally higher.[/quote']

Not a bad build, but -3 is way more than I'd give it. I gave Only With Sweep a -1/2, on the assumption that this would become a melee character's primary tactic. I could probably be talked into going as high as -1, if the character was credibly going to use many other maneuvers.

 

Doing a Sweep automatically halves DCV, so the second Lim in your build makes the first Lim redundant.

[Shike019]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Well, let's look at what 2 W F actually gives you under the current system. We'll use the 2 sword guy, not the range guy.

 

It provides limited ambidexterity, which offsets the -3 OCV Off Hand penalty. That's three Penalty Skill Levels when fighting w/ 2 weapons - 6 points (seems reasonable for a tight group)

 

It provides +2 OCV to offset Sweep penalties when fighting w/ 2 weapons. That's two more PSL's, so 4 points.

 

It either allows access to a maneuver not otherwise permitted (like a Martial maneuver, which would normally cost 3-5 points), or reduces the DCV penalty for doing so from 1/2 to -2 (or -1), which is several DCV levels with a limitation.

 

So that's a value of over 10 points which you receive for 10 points. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

If you want to be able to sweep as a half phase action, that costs a further 5 points. That doesn't sound at all unreasonable to me either.

 

 

 

Well, I know d20 has a mechanic. Their mechanic is that 2 weapon fighting applies heavy "To Hit" penalties (OCV penalties in Hero). That's like Hero.

 

These penalties are reduced if you buy Ambidexterity. They are also reduced if you buy 2 Weapon Fighting. Hero allows you to combine a limited form Ambidexterity with 2 weapon fighting. I would allow full Ambidexterity at a discount for a character who had 2 weapon fighting (3 points to upgrade those three 2 point PSL's to 3 point PSL's). That also seems very similar to me.

 

You can buy some advanced 2 weapon fighting abilities which permit more attacks with your off hand in d20. You can also buy additional PSL's in Hero, so that's similar.

 

In d20, fighting with 2 weapons requires a full attack action, and in Hero it requires a full phase. That seems similar as well. In Hero, you can buy that down to a half phase, and someone probably published a feat to allow it as a partial action in d20.

 

So what's different? Both systems have base mechanics for attacking with two weapons. Both allow the penalties to be bought down in some fashion. Both systems also have a means to attack multiple times with one weapon (Hero has Sweep and D&D has its Base Attack Bonus rules).

 

The major difference is that Hero has dovetailed the two rules. They both provide the ability to make multiple attacks, so why should the rules be significantly different?

 

 

 

Hugh, Very good comparison, I've actually been thinking of a way to adopt the speed mechanic from HERO into d20. There is one problem (imo) with your analysis. In d20 a round (including multiple attacks) is 6 seconds. In HERO a round is 12 seconds. So to accurately compaire the two we should be thinking of how many attacks in the same time span. With this in mind. a f1st-5th level DND character will have the equivilant hero speed of 2. Thus a two weapon fighting character in d20 (with the two weapon fighting tree) gains 1 extra attack per ROUND or an extra 2 speed, or an extra attack per speed increment.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Two Weapon Fighting episode 1: Simple is Best

13 (20) Hot Two Fisted Action 4 HTH Skill Levels, OIF: Off Hand Weapon of Opportunity (-1/2)

 

A bit abstract, but it can blunt the Sweep penalty if you want to attack two different targets, up your DCV for off hand blocks, up your OCV for ‘swarm of attacks’ mode, and up your damage for the ‘double strike.’

 

Advantages: Easy.

Disadvantages: Easy.

 

 

Two Weapon Fighting episode 2: Kind of simple is good too.

11 (20) Off Hand Attacks 2 points Spd, OIF: Off Hand Weapon of Opportunity (-1/2) Only to Attack or Block with weapon in off hand, or start a Haymaker (-1/4)

 

In this case, a “Haymaker†is a double weapon strike.

 

Advantages: Easy, gives you the ‘Block with my left hand and stab with my right!’ effect.

Disadvantages: There’s no difference between 1 and two weapons until halfway through the first full turn, by which time, combat may be over. Unless your base speed is 4, of course.

 

 

Two Weapon Fighting episode 3: Martial Arts Are Cool

5 Off Hand Defending +1 OCV, +3 DCV, Weapon Damage

5 Double Strike +1 OCV, -2 DCV, Weapon Damage +4 DC

4 Double Block +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block

4 Two Fisted Action! +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon Damage+2 DC, Must Follow Block

 

Advantages: Great . . . if the character doesn’t otherwise have martial arts.

Disadvantages: Otherwise, it’s hugely point inefficient and there’s almost no distinction between one weapon and two.

 

(I did have some ‘two handed only!’ martial arts maneuvers somewhere that I was playing with, but I wasn’t able to balance them to my taste before I lost interest . . .)

 

 

Two Weapon Fighting episode 4: There’s No Problem in Hero That Can’t Be Solved With A Multipower

25 (40) Two Weapon Fighting Multipower, OIF: Any Bladed Weapon (-1/2), OAF: Any Two Bladed Weapons on top ten points

2u (30)One Sword 1d6+1 HKA, No End (+1/2), OIF: Any Bladed Weapon

1u (10)Like An Ant Trying To Fight God +2 HTH Levels, OAF: Two Bladed Weapons (-1)

2u (40)Multiple Targets 1d6 +1 HKA, AOE One Hex Doubled, Selective (+1), x2 End (-1/2), Max Two Targets (-1/4), OAF: Two Bladed Weapons (-1)

3u (40)Double Strike! 2 1/2 d6 HKA, Reduced Penetration (-1/4) , OAF: Two Bladed Weapons (-1)

 

Advantages: Good for superheroic games, where you don’t change gear much and no one objects to multipowers.

Disadvantages: ‘Default’ setting only works for base HKAs or Clubs (depending whether you buy it with HKAs or HAs.) Focus limitation is unnecessarily verbose. Also, skill levels in Multipowers are an abomination in the eyes of God and Man.

 

Two Weapon Fighting 5: The Revenge of the Martial Arts

3 Two Targets +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon Damage + 2 DC

5 Sacrifice Strike +1 OCV, -2 DCV, Weapon Damage +4 DC

 

29 (50) Advantages on 'Two Targets' Maneuver AOE One Hex Doubled, Selective (+1), Max Two Targets (-1/4), OIF: Second Weapon Focus (-1/2)

 

8 (20) Double Strike +20 points STR, OIF: Second Weapon Focus (-1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), No Figured (-1/2) Only With Sacrifice Strike (-0)

 

The ‘base’ MA cost assumes a 15 STR, a 1d6+1 sword, and no extra DCs. May increase if stronger. Not all prices go up, some go down.

 

You can use Deadly Blow or just buy up your HKA instead of buying STR for the ‘double strike’ just as easily, but I’m too lazy to find Dark Champions

 

Advantages: You can easily add other martial arts maneuvers, and MAs already allow various types of weapons to be used without buying separate slots for each one.

Disadvantages: Expensive, Stop Power, Must Buy UMA and deal with complicated ‘advantages on MA’ rules. Huge Active Point cost.

 

 

Two Weapon Fighting 6: I Hate Autofire

Use whatever method you like to add Autofire 2 to your attacks. I’m not going to write up any examples, because Autofire burned down my village when I was a child.

 

---

“A kid like you isn’t up to fighting a guy who does it two handed. Like an ant trying to fight God.â€

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Not a bad build, but -3 is way more than I'd give it. I gave Only With Sweep a -1/2, on the assumption that this would become a melee character's primary tactic. I could probably be talked into going as high as -1, if the character was credibly going to use many other maneuvers.

 

Doing a Sweep automatically halves DCV, so the second Lim in your build makes the first Lim redundant.

 

I can agree with -1/2 for Only with Sweep. But why should the limitation vary depending on whether this is my primary tactic (which very much depends on whether I buy Rapid, since without Rapid I need to start in HTH range)? OCV levels with a single maneuver don't vary in cost depending on how often the character will use the maneuver.

 

As to the redundancy of "only to reduce DCV poenalties", note that, if I buy +10 such levels, and I have a 14 DEX, I end up with DCV 5 + 10 = 15/2 = 8 when I Sweep, in the absence of "only to avoid DCV halving". My +6 DCV model below would boost this character's DCV from 5 to 6 when he Sweeps.

 

Plus, if I can take "only to reduce/eliminate halving of DCV", why should I restrict it to Sweeping if I don't have to? I can be 1/2 DCV because I'm Prone, or for a number of other reasons. Restricting it to a Sweep while using 2 weapons means a further restriction on the utility of these levels, especially if I don't want to attack, or don't have 2 weapons.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Hugh' date=' Very good comparison, I've actually been thinking of a way to adopt the speed mechanic from HERO into d20. There is one problem (imo) with your analysis. In d20 a round (including multiple attacks) is 6 seconds. In HERO a round is 12 seconds. So to accurately compaire the two we should be thinking of how many attacks in the same time span. With this in mind. a f1st-5th level DND character will have the equivilant hero speed of 2. Thus a two weapon fighting character in d20 (with the two weapon fighting tree) gains 1 extra attack per ROUND or an extra 2 speed, or an extra attack per speed increment.[/quote']

 

Time in RPG's is abstract anyway, so I'm not too worried about the number of seconds. How slow is a 2nd Ed D&D character, when rounds were 1 minute long? Again, I'm looking to recreate the feel, not the exact mechanical result.

[austenandrews]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

I can agree with -1/2 for Only with Sweep. But why should the limitation vary depending on whether this is my primary tactic (which very much depends on whether I buy Rapid' date=' since without Rapid I need to start in HTH range)? OCV levels with a single maneuver don't vary in cost depending on how often the character will use the maneuver. [/quote']

I based it on how limiting the Limitation is. It's the same idea as not giving a Limitation for "Only In Intense Magnetic Fields" when the character has an Always On magnetic Force Field. If the character is a Conan clone, it's a safe bet he'll be using 2WF as his default attack, so it's not very limiting. If he's a Legolas clone, not so much.

 

As to the redundancy of "only to reduce DCV poenalties", note that, if I buy +10 such levels, and I have a 14 DEX, I end up with DCV 5 + 10 = 15/2 = 8 when I Sweep, in the absence of "only to avoid DCV halving".

Oh, you meant "Only to reduce the 1/2 DCV penalty." I didn't get that from the wording. That makes more sense. But wouldn't you just buy them as Penalty Skill Levels in that case? I mean, assuming you don't have the same skittishness about DCV levels that Steve does.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Oh' date=' you meant "Only to reduce the 1/2 DCV penalty." I didn't get that from the wording. That makes more sense. But wouldn't you just buy them as Penalty Skill Levels in that case? I mean, assuming you don't have the same skittishness about DCV levels that Steve does. [/quote']

 

I generally look for a by the book approach first. I'm not sure what I'd price PSL's for DCV at to begin with, and the halving isn't really so much a penalty as, well, a halving. Besides, a limited Skill Level isn't all that far off a PSL anyway, especially for DCV where +1 DCV against all types of attacks costs 5 points anyway.

[austenandrews]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Fair enough.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Well, let's look at what 2 W F actually gives you under the current system. We'll use the 2 sword guy, not the range guy.

 

It provides limited ambidexterity, ...

 

It provides +2 OCV to offset Sweep penalties when fighting w/ 2 weapons...

 

It either allows access to a maneuver not otherwise permitted (like a Martial maneuver, which would normally cost 3-5 points), or reduces the DCV penalty for doing so from 1/2 to -2 (or -1) you are stuck at 1/2 DCV unless your GM is following reFRED rules...

 

So that's a value of over 10 points which you receive for 10 points. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

If you want to be able to sweep as a half phase action, that costs a further 5 points. That doesn't sound at all unreasonable to me either.

 

 

Possibly most importantly, it enables a character to use the optional maneuver, Sweep in games that otherwise prohibit it. I've a current Fantasy Hero character that, because of Two-Weapon Fighting, is the only member of the party consistently capable of performing a sweep. Combined with Fast Strike, +2 Martial DC, two Greatswords, and several Martial Skill levels, he does more damage than some of my superheroes.

[dbcowboy]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Possibly most importantly' date=' it enables a character to use the [b']optional[/b] maneuver, Sweep in games that otherwise prohibit it. I've a current Fantasy Hero character that, because of Two-Weapon Fighting, is the only member of the party consistently capable of performing a sweep. Combined with Fast Strike, +2 Martial DC, two Greatswords, and several Martial Skill levels, he does more damage than some of my superheroes.

 

Two Greatswords?

 

What's his str?

[Vanguard]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Ok, I've read most of the posts and tend to agree with whatever one else is talkign about. To a point.

 

I've got a couple of issues with how things are done (and more then likely, it's something that my group will have to figure out and discuss but there's nothing wrong with getting other opinions).

 

DD, my main concern is that in the game we are in we use Sweep AND TwF. So there's really no good reason to drop the 1o pnts on TwF other then to have all your levels, etc in one location.

 

Secondly, and this is my biggest gripe, is that for all intents and purposes TwF is a SFX of Sweep. Not a manuever in it's own right.

 

If that's the way it's suppose to be then fine, I just need to learn to see it in a different light.

 

My problem, and this is a hold over from my D&D 2nd Ed days, is that TwF is NOT just a SFX of sweep. It's a maneuver in and of itself. My Ranger could run up and hit a guy twice with his Longsword and Dagger where as that same character, made up in Hero, would run up to the guy and whack him once with his sword. Unless he dropped ANOTHER 5 pnts on Rapid HtH.

 

I've grown used to do it the way that it's detailed in the rules (even though I can't stand it and I get *****y about it every time it ruins one of my "carefully" thought out plans. ). I was just wondering if there was an alternate way of doing it that would give me more of what I was looking for without over balancing things.

 

If it's not possible then that's cool . . just looking for different ideas.

 

EDIT: Ya know what, I just reread the TwF rules in DC and Option #2 gives me exactly what I was looking for. Huh, whoda thunkit.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Two Greatswords?

 

What's his str?

 

 

20 STR, Greatsword has STR Min = 17, one handed use adds +3. He can do it, but just barely.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

DD' date=' my main concern is that in the game we are in we use Sweep AND TwF. So there's really no good reason to drop the 1o pnts on TwF other then to have all your levels, etc in one location.[/quote']

Well, you could provide some other minor benefits in games where you also use Sweep and Rapid Fire. For example, you could allow an additional Abort to Block when it wouldn't normally be allowed (if the character already acted in the Segment or has just Aborted once for some other defensive action, such as Dive for Cover). You could also change Sweep/Rapid Fire's DCV penalty to the flat -3 if the character has either TWF or Rapid Attack. You could allow the character to treat the second weapon as a shield in any Phase they don't attack with it. Use your imagination; I'm sure there are a few other circumstantial benefits you can confer to keep it a cool and cost-effective Skill.

 

Secondly, and this is my biggest gripe, is that for all intents and purposes TwF is a SFX of Sweep. Not a manuever in it's own right.

I'm not sure what the problem is there. Sweep and Rapid Fire (and Move By for the FMove equivalent) are the system mechanics for making multiple attacks in a singe Phase. That's it. Whether that is done with one weapon or more than one weapon is irrelevant unless some specific limitations/restrictions are present, such as those of the TWF Skill. Don't let the name, "Sweep," dictate the SFX of the action for you.

[Shike019]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

I don't know if this is way to out there, but in DND TWF is a series of Feats (minor powers) that allows for additional attacks, What if the TWF allowed for a second iteration of Speed (only for attacking)(giving a spd 2?? for free) using the off hand weapon? Of course this may be too complicated as well.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

I don't know if this is way to out there' date=' but in DND TWF is a series of Feats (minor powers) that allows for additional attacks, What if the TWF allowed for a second iteration of Speed (only for attacking)(giving a spd 2?? for free) using the off hand weapon? Of course this may be too complicated as well.[/quote']

I've tried to use that kind of build before (particularly before 5E fleshed out things like Sweep and Rapid Fire). I find it just makes things unnecessarily complicated. Sometimes I'll still go back to it, but usually not for attacks. You have to deal with when those extra Phases come, exactly what you can do with them, what happens when you Abort, etc.

 

The use of CSLs with various optional maneuvers just works so much more smoothly, especially if you are willing to tinker a bit with the exact mechanics. Oh! That reminds me. One of the modifications I have made for TWF is allowing the second attack (but only the second attack; no further ones unless the first two both hit) even if the first attack misses. That seems like a really nice benefit on top of the standard maneuver, and doesn't seem too unbalancing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Fighting with two weapons is not like fighting with two independent attacks.

 

You attack someone with the first sword, inviting a parry and get the second one through. You parry with one and thrust with the other. You swing both wide and hope the sucker doesn't stick his sword through you in the confusion.

 

Point is, if I have a point, that using two weapons is really just a more complex way of using one weapon, not a virtual duplication (only to attack with second sword).

 

Now the current rules do not necessarily mirrot that perfectly, but I wouldn't expect them to - that's a lot of ground to cover. Nothing to stop you buying limited skill levels (or even just extra damage) to simulate your particular two weapon style. The TWF skill just covers the very basics - it is not meant as a complete solution.

[Shike019]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting

 

Fighting with two weapons is not like fighting with two independent attacks.

 

You attack someone with the first sword, inviting a parry and get the second one through. You parry with one and thrust with the other. You swing both wide and hope the sucker doesn't stick his sword through you in the confusion.

 

Point is, if I have a point, that using two weapons is really just a more complex way of using one weapon, not a virtual duplication (only to attack with second sword).

 

Now the current rules do not necessarily mirrot that perfectly, but I wouldn't expect them to - that's a lot of ground to cover. Nothing to stop you buying limited skill levels (or even just extra damage) to simulate your particular two weapon style. The TWF skill just covers the very basics - it is not meant as a complete solution.

 

Probably the simplest way would be with CSL's (only when wielding two weapons) and on any given attack you decide which weapon you are feinting with and which weapon is the actual attack.

 

Like I stated in my original post, though, I was, more or less, mimicking the d20 version of TWF which would actually be cheaper, and probably easier, to do in HERO using the "second speed score" only for attacking with off hand attacks.