Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Maybe the "answer" for D?S is to treat it much like Autofire is....some versions are much more powerfull than others so D?S goes back to being +1/2 or maybe +3/4 and attacks that effect non standard defenses are +1 additional' date=' in the intrest of play ballence....I'm not sure where Killing fits in here is it "standard" or "special" or should it be a differant penalty for use?[/quote']

That's an interesting idea, but to decide if it's a good idea, and what the actual adjustment should be, you should first look at the numbers:

 

IMO, a 12d6 EB, is about equal to an 8d6 EB DS. And if you use the 4th Edition rule that DS is a +1/2 advantage that doesn't require Continuous to be bought separately, then they cost the same.

 

Now, how much NND DS is a 6d6 NND EB worth? If you think it's worth about 5d6 NND DS (a little less actually), then there is no adjustment. If you think it's worth about 4d6, then the DS becomes +1. That seems about right to me. I'd probably call it an additional +1/2 if the attack doesn't go against common defenses. That would be NNDs and AVLDs, and I guess Mental Powers, BOECVs and Flashes, and Adjustment Powers, too. Hmmm... that seems like to much to me for most of those other types, since there is no "Advantage Stacking" if you buy a Drain DS. Therefore, I'd say the additional +1/2 for Damage Shield, should only apply to NNDs, AVLDs, and BOECVs. (Not to Mental Powers or Flashes or Adjustment Powers.)

 

The heart of our disagreement seems to be what the advantage Continuous is "supposed" to do.

I guess that's a fair summary. I see Constant as simply being a "smooth" power that is *on* continuously, as opposed to Continuous being a power whose *effects* are continuous. For example, a Force Field is on continuously, but it only has an effect at the instant that an attack occurs. The same is true for a Damage Shield; you keep it going continuously, but it's effect on the opponent only happen during the instant that he touches you. Having the effects keep happening continuously is a significant advantage, that's why Continuous is a +1. Simply allowing the power to be on "smoothly" as opposed to in discreet instants of time, is not a big deal. Oh, goody, I get to keep paying END.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I guess that's a fair summary. I see Constant as simply being a "smooth" power that is *on* continuously' date=' as opposed to Continuous being a power whose *effects* are continuous. For example, a Force Field is on continuously, but it only has an effect at the instant that an attack occurs. The same is true for a Damage Shield; you keep it going continuously, but it's effect on the opponent only happen during the instant that he touches you. Having the effects keep happening continuously is a significant advantage, that's why Continuous is a +1. Simply allowing the power to be on "smoothly" as opposed to in discreet instants of time, is not a big deal. Oh, goody, I get to keep paying END.[/quote']

Well, you can activate Instant Powers each Phase, but if they are offensive (basically) they require an Attack Action. You also must make an new attack roll (if applicable) to affect the target again. The Continuous Advantage allows you to keep affecting the same target, both without further Attack Actions and without further attack rolls. If the power covers an area, Continuous has some other benefits too, but that can probably be considered a special case.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

If the power covers an area' date=' [i']Continuous[/i] has some other benefits too, but that can probably be considered a special case.

...or not on second thought, considering the Damage Shield application we are discussing. Damage Shields are similar in that the target is affected while touching you rather than while touching an area/volume. That probably has little to do with whether you wrap that aspect of a Damage Shield up in the Damage Shield Advantage or also require it to take Continuous, though.

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I guess that's a fair summary. I see Constant as simply being a "smooth" power that is *on* continuously' date=' as opposed to Continuous being a power whose *effects* are continuous. For example, a Force Field is on continuously, but it only has an effect at the instant that an attack occurs. The same is true for a Damage Shield; you keep it going continuously, but it's effect on the opponent only happen during the instant that he touches you. Having the effects keep happening continuously is a significant advantage, that's why Continuous is a +1. Simply allowing the power to be on "smoothly" as opposed to in discreet instants of time, is not a big deal. Oh, goody, I get to keep paying END.[/quote']

 

Phil, I understand what you are saying, but I do not see where there is a basis for it in the rules. The description of the advantage Continuous states explicitly that it makes an Instant Power into a Constant Power. The continuing to effect the target is an aspect of it being used with a Ranged Power that has a specific target.

 

If you apply AoE and Continuous to an Attack Power like Energy Blast, you do not keep getting to do damage to targets within that were in the AoE, when you hit, as long as you pay END. You get to continue to do damage to anything that is inside the AoE as long as you pay END. If CON/STUN Boy can move outside the AoE without going unconscious he is safe. You can not hurt him any more.

 

If you apply Constant to a Non-Ranged Power like Drain or Aid, it only works as long as you are in contact with the target. It does not get to work automatically on a target that touches you when the power is activiated. To use it with a Grab you would need to make a Multiple Power Attack, I would assume. You would have to maintain the Grab to keep using the power. (Assuming it isn't something positive like an Aid or Healing, in which case the target maybe the one maintianing the Grab.)

 

Given that most foci for HtH Attacks do not protect you from Damage Shield. That you do not have to use an Attack action to have the power work even the first time. Add in how potent it can be combined with Killing Attacks against Entangles and in Heroic Level Games, I'm kind of loathe to say that Damage Shield should be less of an Advantage than Continuous on a HtH Attack Power.

[pinecone]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

See post #31.

I guess that just goes to show great minds think alike...

[pinecone]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

That's an interesting idea, but to decide if it's a good idea, and what the actual adjustment should be, you should first look at the numbers:

 

IMO, a 12d6 EB, is about equal to an 8d6 EB DS. And if you use the 4th Edition rule that DS is a +1/2 advantage that doesn't require Continuous to be bought separately, then they cost the same.

 

Now, how much NND DS is a 6d6 NND EB worth? If you think it's worth about 5d6 NND DS (a little less actually), then there is no adjustment. If you think it's worth about 4d6, then the DS becomes +1. That seems about right to me. I'd probably call it an additional +1/2 if the attack doesn't go against common defenses. That would be NNDs and AVLDs, and I guess Mental Powers, BOECVs and Flashes, and Adjustment Powers, too. Hmmm... that seems like to much to me for most of those other types, since there is no "Advantage Stacking" if you buy a Drain DS. Therefore, I'd say the additional +1/2 for Damage Shield, should only apply to NNDs, AVLDs, and BOECVs. (Not to Mental Powers or Flashes or Adjustment Powers.)

 

 

I guess that's a fair summary. I see Constant as simply being a "smooth" power that is *on* continuously, as opposed to Continuous being a power whose *effects* are continuous. For example, a Force Field is on continuously, but it only has an effect at the instant that an attack occurs. The same is true for a Damage Shield; you keep it going continuously, but it's effect on the opponent only happen during the instant that he touches you. Having the effects keep happening continuously is a significant advantage, that's why Continuous is a +1. Simply allowing the power to be on "smoothly" as opposed to in discreet instants of time, is not a big deal. Oh, goody, I get to keep paying END.

I just like easy answers so making non standard D/S's cost at the "nerf level" seems easy to use and remember...as to Drain D/S's I've seen this be Brutally effective...I also fear Penitrating Killing D/s's for simular reasons....

[Kristopher]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

The problem is that the 5th edition rules for DS nerf it so hard that only strange and/or lethal builds are at all effective. People make Penetrating Does BODY HKA Damage Shields because anything less isn't really effective.

[pinecone]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

The problem is that the 5th edition rules for DS nerf it so hard that only strange and/or lethal builds are at all effective. People make Penetrating Does BODY HKA Damage Shields because anything less isn't really effective.

Exactly so for those weird bent versions lets keep the muzzles on...but for a vanilla e-attack lets show some love...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

BTW' date=' the [i']Continuous[/i] Advantage isn't quite the only way to convert an Instant Power into a Constant Power; Continuing Charges also do that.

 

'Fraid not, presti. Continuing Charges can only be used with Powers that are Constant or Persistent. (FREd p. 182/ 5ER p. 284) You'd have to make an Instant Power Constant before you could slap Continuing Charges on it, and that still requires Continuous.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

'Fraid not' date=' presti. Continuing Charges can only be used with Powers that are Constant or Persistent. (FREd p. 182/ 5ER p. 284) You'd have to make an Instant Power Constant before you could slap Continuing Charges on it, and that still requires Continuous.[/quote']

Ah. Huh. I must have been thinking about the Uncontrolled aspect of Continuous Charges. Sorry about that. It's what I get for posting without my book most of the time.

 

Anyway, I agree that perhaps Damage Shield shouldn't be less expensive than Continuous, but I'm not sure either that it should be as expensive as itself plus the value of Continuous as it (typically) is now either, or that the speicific aspects of Continuous needed for the DS shouldn't be bundled with the Damage Shield Advantage itself.

 

I guess part of the problem is that it would be possible to create a Damage Shield from an already Constant Power. I can't think of any that would be useful ATM, but in that case the Damage Shield would be significantly less expensive because you wouldn't need to pile on Continuous. Can anyone else think of a Constant Power you might want to use with DS, so my poor weary brain doesn't have to be creative right now?

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I guess part of the problem is that it would be possible to create a Damage Shield from an already Constant Power. I can't think of any that would be useful ATM' date=' but in that case the Damage Shield would be significantly less expensive because you wouldn't need to pile on [i']Continuous[/i]. Can anyone else think of a Constant Power you might want to use with DS, so my poor weary brain doesn't have to be creative right now?

 

Suppress and Telekinesis come to mind off the bat. A STR Suppress DS could be ugly with a Brick or a Grappling MA.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Suppress and Telekinesis come to mind off the bat. A STR Suppress DS could be ugly with a Brick or a Grappling MA.

Okay. Now Suppress is an interesting one. You are going to have to pay End for the Damage Shield each Phase, and it will start affecting a target when they hit you. Now, how long will it affect the target? Should it be considered an Instant in that regard? Should it affect the target until you deactivate the Damage Shield (ouch! Watch out for 0 End/Persistent DSs in that case!), or should the inherently Constant part of the Suppress be in how it affects the target rather than how it stays active for the Damage Shield (in which case the character should really have to pay End for each attacker and each Phase past the first that attacker will be affected, and the Reduced End Cost Advantage should really have to be applied twice if you never want to pay any End).

 

If the latter, we should really still require the Continuous Advantage to applied to even Suppress in order for the Damage Shield to be maintained. Or, of course, if we decide to wrap that into the Damage Shield Advantage somehow, then Damage Shield should still be applied to Suppress identically to how it would be applied to HA, EB, or any other Power.

 

I'm thinking more and more that the base value of Damage Shield should be increased to +1 or somesuch, and it should never require Continuous to be applied to the base Power just to turn it into a Damage Shield; that part should be built in to the Damage Shield Advantage. That's basically what I felt before, but this thread is doing nothing but reinforcing that opinion.

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Okay. Now Suppress is an interesting one. You are going to have to pay End for the Damage Shield each Phase' date=' and it will start affecting a target when they hit you. Now, how long will it affect the target? Should it be considered an Instant in that regard? Should it affect the target until you deactivate the Damage Shield (ouch! Watch out for 0 End/Persistent DSs in that case!), or should the inherently Constant part of the Suppress be in how it affects the target rather than how it stays active for the Damage Shield (in which case the character should really have to pay End for each attacker and each Phase past the first that attacker will be affected, and the [i']Reduced End Cost[/i] Advantage should really have to be applied twice if you never want to pay any End).

 

If the latter, we should really still require the Continuous Advantage to applied to even Suppress in order for the Damage Shield to be maintained. Or, of course, if we decide to wrap that into the Damage Shield Advantage somehow, then Damage Shield should still be applied to Suppress identically to how it would be applied to HA, EB, or any other Power.

 

Well, we are back to the fact that Damage Shield is inherently No Range. A Suppress that is bought as No Range probably, does not continue to work once the target is no longer in contact with the person with the no range Suppress. The same would be true of of a Damage Shield, I would suppose. I think that once again the primary advantage comes from not having to make a separate attack for the Suppress. Though the idea a Supress vs. Def would once again be very useful against an Entangle. (I'm starting to wonder if DS and Desolid are the natural defenses against Entangle.)

 

An interesting idea could be to apply the Suppression Field concept to Damage Shield. Any Power that the Suppress Damage Shield would affect, would apply to the character with the Suppress DS at a Reduced level.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

An interesting idea could be to apply the Suppression Field concept to Damage Shield. Any Power that the Suppress Damage Shield would affect' date=' would apply to the character with the Suppress DS at a Reduced level.[/quote']

I don't think DS should be necessary for that. I think Suppress should simply be usable defensively in the same manner as Dispel. That takes a lot less complication. DS should be used when you really want to affect the attacker in some way (or really want a Trigger-like affect when you are hit; even then Trigger might be the better choice since Damage Shields technically have no affect when a ranged attack is made).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Phil' date=' I understand what you are saying, but I do not see where there is a basis for it in the rules.[/quote']

Well, I do. It's the concept of fairness: You get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. To state it as simply as possible, a 6d6 EB Damage Shield is significantly less useful than a 12d6 EB. Do you think those two constructs are equal in value?

 

The description of the advantage Continuous states explicitly that it makes an Instant Power into a Constant Power.

Yes, but it doesn't say that that's the only way to make an Instant Power Constant, or that there is no other effect beyond that.

 

If you apply AoE and Continuous to an Attack Power like Energy Blast, you do not keep getting to do damage to targets within that were in the AoE, when you hit, as long as you pay END. You get to continue to do damage to anything that is inside the AoE as long as you pay END. If CON/STUN Boy can move outside the AoE without going unconscious he is safe. You can not hurt him any more.

...until you move the AoE. Does it say somewhere that a Continuous AoE power can't be moved? IDHMBIFOM. If so, that's another issue I would have with unfairness in the rules.

 

If you apply Constant to a Non-Ranged Power like Drain or Aid, it only works as long as you are in contact with the target.

(You mean "Continuous" of course.) I'm going to have to look that one up. It doesn't seem right to me. At the very least, you shouldn't really have to maintian contact, merely be at HtH range (i.e., within one hex).

 

And while we're talking about Drains, do you think a 3d6 Drain DS is worth the same as a 6d6 Drain? How about a 4d6 Drain at Range?

And is a 6d6 Drain equal in value to a 3d6 Drain, Continuous? Assuming you have to maintain contact, or stay within one hex?

 

...I'm kind of loathe to say that Damage Shield should be less of an Advantage than Continuous on a HtH Attack Power.

I might be OK with a +1 for DS if you also get to apply No Range to powers that normally have range, so that you don't get a price break on Drains, et al.

 

Continuing Charges can only be used with Powers that are Constant or Persistent. (FREd p. 182/ 5ER p. 284) You'd have to make an Instant Power Constant before you could slap Continuing Charges on it' date=' and that still requires Continuous.[/quote']

And this is another unfairness, IMO. Having to pay extra for Continuing Charges, and then having to pay again for the Continuous advantage is paying twice for the same benefit. But now I'm getting even farther off the topic. But it seems there are all kinds of problems with the rules for the Continuous advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Movement powers are continous by default, aren't they? Megascale Movement UAA Damage Aura, anyone?

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Well' date=' I do. It's the concept of fairness: You get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. To state it as simply as possible, a 6d6 EB Damage Shield is significantly less useful than a 12d6 EB. Do you think those two constructs are equal in value?[/quote']

 

In general, across a variety of settings, yes. In certain campaigns I've played in, I actually see the 6D6 EB DS being superior to the 12D6 EB, and yes, in a some campaigns the 12D6 EB is going to be superior.

 

Yes' date=' but it doesn't say that that's the only way to make an Instant Power Constant, or that there is no other effect beyond that.[/quote']

 

Yet, we have not found another way within the current rules that allow you to make an Instant Power a Constant Power.

 

...until you move the AoE. Does it say somewhere that a Continuous AoE power can't be moved? IDHMBIFOM. If so' date=' that's another issue I would have with unfairness in the rules.[/quote']

 

Constant AoE powers like Darkness or Change Environment can not be moved. Fantasy Hero has a an Advantage called Mobile, IIRC. UAA allows you to target a person and/or object and it will stick to the person. I think No Range also allows it to move with the Character creating the Power, but I'd need to double check that.

 

(You mean "Continuous" of course.) I'm going to have to look that one up. It doesn't seem right to me. At the very least' date=' you shouldn't really have to maintian contact, merely be at HtH range (i.e., within one hex).[/quote']

 

It is in the old rules FAQ. Since it isn't in the new, I assume that it is covered in 5Er.

 

And while we're talking about Drains, do you think a 3d6 Drain DS is worth the same as a 6d6 Drain? How about a 4d6 Drain at Range?

And is a 6d6 Drain equal in value to a 3d6 Drain, Continuous? Assuming you have to maintain contact, or stay within one hex?

 

Except in campaigns where Power Defense in amounts greater than 10 are common, yes, I would find them equal. (Actually, in a game where Power Defense wasn't common at all I would say that they are both more powerful than a 6D6 Drain.) Of course, I've never played in a game that had a PC with more than 10 pts of Power Defense.

 

I might be OK with a +1 for DS if you also get to apply No Range to powers that normally have range' date=' so that you don't get a price break on Drains, et al.[/quote']

 

Really, the only place where I see them giving an additional price break on Powers bought as a DS is HKA. I guess that you could add the "STR does not Add" Limitation to a HHA, but I haven't seen an example of it.

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I don't think DS should be necessary for that. I think Suppress should simply be usable defensively in the same manner as Dispel. That takes a lot less complication. DS should be used when you really want to affect the attacker in some way (or really want a Trigger-like affect when you are hit; even then Trigger might be the better choice since Damage Shields technically have no affect when a ranged attack is made).

 

My assumption would be in the case of a DS Suppress that the "defending" character would not need to have a held action. The power would go off, whenever the Damage Shield was active.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

My assumption would be in the case of a DS Suppress that the "defending" character would not need to have a held action. The power would go off' date=' whenever the Damage Shield was active.[/quote']

I'd personally allow that to be covered by the Constant nature of Suppress, just like I let Continuous, Self Only Dispels bought specifically for the purpose of defense go off without a held action. An additional Persistent makes the build even sweeter, of course.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Constant AoE powers like Darkness or Change Environment can not be moved.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I was responding to the example that you gave: "If you apply AoE and Continuous to an Attack Power like Energy Blast,..."

 

In general, across a variety of settings, yes. In certain campaigns I've played in, I actually see the 6D6 EB DS being superior to the 12D6 EB, and yes, in a some campaigns the 12D6 EB is going to be superior.

 

Except in campaigns where Power Defense in amounts greater than 10 are common, yes, I would find them equal. (Actually, in a game where Power Defense wasn't common at all I would say that they are both more powerful than a 6D6 Drain.) Of course, I've never played in a game that had a PC with more than 10 pts of Power Defense.

IME, the real factor is not the target's defenses, but whether the target has Ranged attacks. Damage Shield does absolutely nothing to deter someone attacking you at range. And in just about every game/setting/genre, Ranged attacks are as common as salt. Even Bricks can throw rocks at you (and they might not even need to because their defenses are often quite high). Even in heroic settings: Pulp HERO has guns and whips, Star HERO has energy weapons, Fantasy HERO has bows and thrown weapons. And in just about every genre, there are hoards of mooks armed with ranged weapons.

 

EB is a good, all-purpose attack, useful against most opponents. DS (at +1, and especially at +1.5 per the book) is useful only against a limited selection of opponents: HtH attackers with low defenses.

 

Yes, the Drain example might be fair (or at least closer to it), which is why I agreed with the suggestion that an additional +1/2 (or double the DS) be applied if it works against an exotic defense. (I could even see reasons to double the cost of Reduced END on a DS.)

 

But I can't see it being worth +1 for the privelege of paying END continuously for no defense and a little bit of damage only against those who attack HtH and nothing against those who attack at range.

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Yes' date=' I'm aware of that. I was responding to the example that you gave: "If you apply AoE and Continuous to an Attack Power like Energy Blast,..."[/quote']

 

The FAQ spelled it out more clearly for 5E, and I would take the phrase "all rules governing Constant Powers apply to [a power bought with Continuous]" would have been enough to cover it. The description of the Mobile Modifier in Fantasy Hero is also explicit on the combination of the AoE and Constant Advantages not being movable.

 

IME, the real factor is not the target's defenses, but whether the target has Ranged attacks. Damage Shield does absolutely nothing to deter someone attacking you at range. And in just about every game/setting/genre, Ranged attacks are as common as salt. Even Bricks can throw rocks at you (and they might not even need to because their defenses are often quite high). Even in heroic settings: Pulp HERO has guns and whips, Star HERO has energy weapons, Fantasy HERO has bows and thrown weapons. And in just about every genre, there are hoards of mooks armed with ranged weapons.

 

EB is a good, all-purpose attack, useful against most opponents. DS (at +1, and especially at +1.5 per the book) is useful only against a limited selection of opponents: HtH attackers with low defenses.

 

Yes, the Drain example might be fair (or at least closer to it), which is why I agreed with the suggestion that an additional +1/2 (or double the DS) be applied if it works against an exotic defense. (I could even see reasons to double the cost of Reduced END on a DS.)

 

But I can't see it being worth +1 for the privelege of paying END continuously for no defense and a little bit of damage only against those who attack HtH and nothing against those who attack at range.

 

You will forgive me, but here:

 

austenandrews is correct that 5e "nerfed" Damage Shield. The bottom line: 50 active points gets you:

 

10d6 EB

 

or

 

4d6 EB, Continuous, Damage Shield

 

Do those seem equal to anyone? If you've got enough defenses to deal with 10d6 EB, 4d6 is going to do almost nothing.

 

(I would have used 60 points, but the numbers don't come out even.)

 

You did very much seem very much concerned about the defenses in the game here, which is why I focused on it.

 

When I made my statement concerning across genres and in general, I was factoring multiple things:

 

The frequency and nature of ranged attacks: bows have limitations that make it likely to be able to close with them and a bad idea to use them against an opponent within H to H range, thrown weapons have some of the same limitations and a much reduced ammo supply compared to bows, early firearms are often highly limited in the number of effective shots that can be made. Then you have to move from the nature of ranged attacks in the world to the genre conventions, while yes you could have 20 members of the Cardnial's Guard surrond the three PC Muskateers and fire their pistols at the Muskateers, it isn't really genre appropriate (unless they are all really bad shots, in which case after firing their one shot pistols they'll draw their swords and charge), but allowing one of those Muskateers to have a DS as "Perfect Riposte" could very easily be genre appropriate.

 

The relation of Defenses to Damage Classes and/or Active Points: My experiences are that Super Heroes tend to have a better ratio of Defense to Attack, than most other genres, so this means that a Power with Advantages that do not impact DC tend to be less effective for the same Active Cost. Of course, if there are separate caps for DC and Active Cost, than that can be compensated for. (Granted the costs are going to be different still, but their are ways to gain cost savings.) I've played in a games where the GMs were going for a specific feel, and he wanted players relying on DCV not Def, the side effect of this was that any attack that by passed the normal Attack Roll process (AoE, DS, BECV) were significantly more potent than a power with the same Active Cost that used straight Damage to achieve that level.

 

The range of different Movement Powers available and range in number of inches in movement: this is also tied into the ranged attack discussion above, but how well a character can keep the range open makes DS less attractive.

 

Now, because, I hadn't until now consider it that relevant to the discussion, I hadn't mentioned that I am a lot more willing to alter the costs of things based on a specific campaign/genre than DOJ has generally been willing to do in its paper products (I can not comment on Digital Hero), so for some genres I may go for a smaller Modifier. Though, I suspect most of the time I would be going with other factors. In most SF games I run, it is probably going to be some piece of equipment (I tend to run human centric SF without aliens, yes I know how boring), so the active cost isn't going to be a factor. In a game where I'm allowing funky martial arts manuevers like "perfect counter strike" (Pulp, Ninja Hero, some Fantasy) the ratio of defense to active cost is going to be very low to begin with, and any Powers purchased are going to have tons of Limitations on them. In Champions, I generally go with the Active Point Cap is Higher than the Damage Class Cap, and look unsurprised when the DS shows up as part of a Power Framework (mind you, I do not necessarily allow it in the Framework, but most of my players usually build their Frameworks in ways I approve).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Not that the Damage Shield discussion isn't interesting, but to return to the original question:

 

How about +50 PRE, only for attacks (-½), no conscious control (-1), only vs. people making mental contact (-1), Side Effect: character takes same PRE attack at half strength (-½). Real Cost:12

 

The total extra PRE might depend on the power level of the campaign, but you could buy a pretty impressive PRE attack this way for a handful of points. If you allow characters to be driven mad by PRE attacks achieving PRE+40 or more this becomes even more effective.

 

I only give a -1 for NNC because even though the character has no control over it, it always goes off in a predictable fashion. The side effect could be at full strength at the players option. You could argue that this build would require BOECV and a Trigger, but the point is to make a reasonable cost power out of this and I don't see that either of these advantages is absolutely necessary given the nature of the power and the way the limitations are written.

 

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