Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

[Kristopher]

Here's the concept:

 

A character was dead, but came back. She saw terrible things while she was "beyond". Things she subconsciously remembers. Whenever a mentalist makes contact with her, those terrible, horrific, inexpressible images and feelings come rushing down the mental contact like bile through a fire hose. She doesn't have any control over it, she can't make it happen or stop it from happening.

 

It's not safe for anyone to make contact with her mind, no matter how it's done...mutant mentalist, psychic, psionic, mage, whoever, however.

 

 

You wouldn't believe how expensive this is to build using Ego Attack or Mental Illusions with Damage Shield.

[Sociotard]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

When mentalists try to access her mind, do they have a chance to back off? "Oh man, I was just there for a second! Good thing I have nice reflexes, or I'd be raving mad, or dead" If so, it's just a special effect for bunch of mental defense, saying no mentalist can stand to stay connected.

 

If not, yeah, damage shields are expensive. A 1 DC Tranform person into nutty person BOECV damage shield continuous for 35 points. I'd imagine it would be similar for ego attacks and mental illusions.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

...You wouldn't believe how expensive this is to build using Ego Attack or Mental Illusions with Damage Shield.

Yes, yes I would. Still, limitations such as Always On or No Conscious Control or perhaps Side effect should make it more manageable.

 

How dangerous is it? Painful, crippling or deadly?

[austenandrews]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

To capture the full effect, I'd go with some flavor of Mental Transform, Partial Effect. And it does sound like you could use an Ego Attack in there somehow, at least for the initial contact. Don't forget Persistent, of course.

 

I'd allow a package of effects as an EC. Pretty darn expensive for what almost amounts to a Disad (unless mental attacks are common in the game world).

[Kristopher]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Yes, yes I would. Still, limitations such as Always On or No Conscious Control or perhaps Side effect should make it more manageable.

 

How dangerous is it? Painful, crippling or deadly?

 

Crippling.

[Kristopher]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

To capture the full effect, I'd go with some flavor of Mental Transform, Partial Effect. And it does sound like you could use an Ego Attack in there somehow, at least for the initial contact. Don't forget Persistent, of course.

 

I'd allow a package of effects as an EC. Pretty darn expensive for what almost amounts to a Disad (unless mental attacks are common in the game world).

 

That's what keeps getting me. It's so freaking expensive for something that might come up once every dozen gaming sessions, and can't be used offensively.

 

Of course, it might not be quite so expensive if I weren't scaling it against some of the mentalists in CKC. It takes a lot of make Menton back off.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Yeah, I gave my version of Wolverine a similar ability, though not crippling in strength. It does get expensive fast....

 

 

32 Mental Feedback: Ego Attack 1 1/2d6, Inherent (+1/4), Damage Shield (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (56 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Here's an inexpensive, borderline-munchkin approach: buy this as a Ranged Killing Attack, Based On Ego Combat Value. According to the rules this attack is only stopped by Resistant Mental Defense, which I have yet to see any published Champions character buy. So, any amount of RKA will pass right through the target's Mental Defense unimpeded.

 

You can make this even cheaper by making it a Hand Killing Attack, and applying the "No STR Bonus" Limitation (-1/2). Several published writeups use that Lim, so it's perfectly legal.

 

You could even add "Does Body" to the BOECV KA for a consequence that almost no one could ignore.

 

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear from my description, all of the above applies to Damage Shield constructs.

[Intrope]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Here's an inexpensive, borderline-munchkin approach: buy this as a Ranged Killing Attack, Based On Ego Combat Value. According to the rules this attack is only stopped by Resistant Mental Defense, which I have yet to see any published Champions character buy. So, any amount of RKA will pass right through the target's Mental Defense unimpeded.

 

You can make this even cheaper by making it a Hand Killing Attack, and applying the "No STR Bonus" Limitation (-1/2). Several published writeups use that Lim, so it's perfectly legal.

 

You could even add "Does Body" to the BOECV KA for a consequence that almost no one could ignore.

Why yes, I do believe that's Menton...and he appears to be bleeding from his eyes!

 

HKA BOECV was actually my first idea, but the resistant mental defense thing would be excessively nasty. Another thought: would it be legal to buy Continuous a second time for a damage sheild, making the damage continuous? If so, BOECV Transform (loss of SAN from disturbing images) would also be a really nasty one. I'd be really unlikely to allow either of these, of course (I might allow the transform, if the 'cure' for the continuous damage was really easy; even so, it pretty much prevent a mentalist from attacking you).

[austenandrews]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Another thought: would it be legal to buy Continuous a second time for a damage sheild' date=' making the [i']damage[/i] continuous? If so, BOECV Transform (loss of SAN from disturbing images) would also be a really nasty one. I'd be really unlikely to allow either of these, of course (I might allow the transform, if the 'cure' for the continuous damage was really easy; even so, it pretty much prevent a mentalist from attacking you).

That way lies madness! I ran Continuous Continuous up the flagpole awhile back and confused the heck out of Steve.

 

If you want it to be truly nasty, add Sticky.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Here's an inexpensive' date=' borderline-munchkin approach: buy this as a Ranged Killing Attack, Based On Ego Combat Value. According to the rules this attack is only stopped by Resistant Mental Defense, which I have yet to see any published Champions character buy. So, any amount of RKA will pass right through the target's Mental Defense unimpeded.[/quote']

 

My simplistic, and not book-legal, solution to the issue of Resistant and Exotic defenses is to rule that all exotic defenses are fully resistant. End of problem (except that it makes such defenses even less attractive in Force Walls and Force Fields).

[pinecone]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

The other "gets past defenses" mod is PEN...its real cheap when its just a small part of a larger "chunk o" mods" that Dam sheild entails...and a continuing continuous penatrating attack is a way to say "No trespassing"... or neg skill levels as an attack...damage sheild!

[Kristopher]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

That way lies madness! I ran Continuous Continuous up the flagpole awhile back and confused the heck out of Steve.

 

If you want it to be truly nasty, add Sticky.

 

I'm not sure I understand "Continuous Continuous". Explain?

[austenandrews]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I'm not sure I understand "Continuous Continuous". Explain?

Damage Shield requires Continuous. Intrope mentioned buying Continuous a second time, so that if someone is affected by the damage shield, the damage will continue to affect them even after contact has stopped.

[Kristopher]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Damage Shield requires Continuous. Intrope mentioned buying Continuous a second time' date=' so that if someone is affected by the damage shield, the damage will continue to affect them even after contact has stopped.[/quote']

 

I thought that Advantage was called "Uncontrolled".

[Jfry]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

You wouldn't believe how expensive this is to build using Ego Attack or Mental Illusions with Damage Shield.

Hmmm, this is a great flavorful idea for a power. I see how it's expensive to build, and in certain psionic-heavy campaigns I would say rightly so. (If most foes that would ever attack me would be crippled, and I don't need to take any action, this is probably unbalancingly powerful.)

 

On the other hand, if there's only one mentalist in the world and he's your ally, then in my opinion it ought to cost a lot less. I am not sure if the relative prevelance of mentalists in your campaign is a valid use of the Conditional Power limitation, but it sounds like a good solution to me. In the end, I'm in favor of letting GMs determine the 'worth' of a power within the campaign, and cost it accordingly.

 

I liked some of the other thoughts about how this could be made cheaper. Side effects seem particularly interesting. Does having these memories dredged up exhaust her (END Drain)? Does it frazzle her nerves (Negative Skill Levels, or DEX Drain)? But in the end I am less in favor of doing acrobatics to try to get the cost lower. If both player and GM agree, I as GM would just lower the cost by decree.

 

Jeff

[Adventus]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Don't forget Cumulative +1/2. This way if they make contact again it adds to the previous damage. Driving them even closer to that line between sanity and the loony bin.

[austenandrews]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I thought that Advantage was called "Uncontrolled".

If I'm not mistaken, you would have to buy the second Continuous before you could add Uncontrolled.

 

See, I told you this way lies madness.

[Vondy]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Yup, its expensive. A lot of simple things are expensive in Hero. Its why my games are pointless.

 

Well, no actual point cap, anyways.

 

Mental Illusions 4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Damage Shield (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1) (70 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Always On (-1/2), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4). Real Cost: 25.

 

I didn't give -2 for no conscious control because they already have "always on." It seemed like double dipping. However, if the welling up of the psychic resonance of the netherealms has the potential to overwhelm the character as well (i.e., normally their experience of it is at a low ebb but the contact creates a surge;ego roll to avoid), then you might add:

 

Side Effects, Affects Character and Target, Major (-1/2). Real Cost Now: 21.

 

Personally, I've always ignored the Damage Shield requires Continuous rule. Its prohibitive and conceptually out of left field. If they want it to stop they can break contact. Its not as though you can keep using the power on them if they let go or stop their attack. They, not you, are initiating the contact (and power).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

OK, alternative time:

 

20 points of mental defence, hardened and resistant for 37 points

 

SFX: mental contact is painful for the attacker due to , and this reduces their ability to affect the character. I mean the point is usually to stop mentalists getting in there, rather than make their heads explode. Anyway, most mentalists have strong minds: attacking them on home ground will often be ineffective.

 

I do like Von_D Man's idea though. Nice build.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Personally' date=' I've always ignored the Damage Shield requires Continuous rule. Its prohibitive and conceptually out of left field. If they want it to stop they can break contact. Its not as though you can keep using the power on them if they let go or stop their attack. They, not you, are initiating the contact (and power).[/quote']

Exactly! This is one of those rules that I always ignore. The advantage Continuous is supposed to cause continuous damage to the target, not to simply make the power "smooth". What exactly are you getting when you buy Damage Shield on a power that you had to buy Continuous for? You lose Range, you lose control over when your opponent is "hit", you pay END even when you aren't "attacking". It seems that Damage Shield should actually be a Limitation under these circumstances.

 

In conclusion: Ignore the rule that requires Continuous for Damage Shield, and just do it the way that makes sense.

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Exactly! This is one of those rules that I always ignore. The advantage Continuous is supposed to cause continuous damage to the target, not to simply make the power "smooth". What exactly are you getting when you buy Damage Shield on a power that you had to buy Continuous for? You lose Range, you lose control over when your opponent is "hit", you pay END even when you aren't "attacking". It seems that Damage Shield should actually be a Limitation under these circumstances.

 

In conclusion: Ignore the rule that requires Continuous for Damage Shield, and just do it the way that makes sense.

 

To my mind there are a couple of offsetting benefits.

 

A. You can do damage to multiple targets within the same phase without Sweeping, Spreading, etc.

 

B. You do damage to the targets you are in contact with as an action that takes no time.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

To my mind there are a couple of offsetting benefits.

 

A. You can do damage to multiple targets within the same phase without Sweeping, Spreading, etc.

 

B. You do damage to the targets you are in contact with as an action that takes no time.

How about:

 

C. You can do damage to targets without an attack roll?

[austenandrews]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

Exactly! This is one of those rules that I always ignore. The advantage Continuous is supposed to cause continuous damage to the target, not to simply make the power "smooth". What exactly are you getting when you buy Damage Shield on a power that you had to buy Continuous for? You lose Range, you lose control over when your opponent is "hit", you pay END even when you aren't "attacking". It seems that Damage Shield should actually be a Limitation under these circumstances.

 

In conclusion: Ignore the rule that requires Continuous for Damage Shield, and just do it the way that makes sense.

That's pretty much what I do. 5E basically nerfed Damage Shield.

[caris]

Re: Terrible Thoughts -- Simple Concept, Expensive Build

 

I reviewed Damage Shield and Continous, and I still think that requiring a Damage Shield to in some way become a Constant Power is a good thing. I have to pay for a Force Field that I want to have up, even if I am not "defending" that Phase.

 

The problem I think comes from the value of the two Advantages. A +1 Advantage for Continous is fine when you are putting it on an Attack Power that targets specific things (i.e. does not have standard AOE or Damage Shield), because the ability to continue to damage a target without the Attack Roll and as an action that takes no time is a potent ability. I'm just not so sure that it is as potent for something like a wall of fire (RKA, AOE: Line, Continous), where people can stop taking the damage by stepping out of the AOE. Damage Shield has never been a big part of any of my games, but I may house rule that Continous is only a +1/2 Advantage when combined with AOE (other than the Accurate option) or Damage Shield.