Hit from behind

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I agree, and I think it has been clarified. This is a non-issue.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I agree' date=' and I think it has been clarified. This is a non-issue.[/quote']

 

I agree... in most games this has been a non-issue... but there is a legitimate question buried in here. (At least I think so...)

 

In a game where there are so many rules dictating movement and such... why is there no (or maybe there is and I don't know if 5th Revised) a ruling on a character staying within the same hex, but still moving. What movement is allowed... at what point in their phase... what is assumed to be free movement... what is not?

 

It is not an easy or clear connection between DCV (a passive mechanic that is actually reflecting active character defensive movement) and attacking character movement (highly ruled and regulated) to the no-facing assumption of Hero... to the open ended GM-rules-what-is-"surprise."

 

Those of us who have spent years absorbing the system don't always realize the rather convoluted logic (or just assumptions) going on... and it is worthwhile to break this down and try an make some simplifying changes and/or clarifying statements that can make the system better.

 

And all these interpretations are not the same. If I interpret DCV as my character simply rotating to follow you as you try to circle him... there is no need for held actions or a "Hurry" maneuver. It is a built in assumption of the game... one that has always worked in every game I've been in, though clearly it isn't universal or we wouldn't have this thread.

 

Hero play is a gestalt effect of the interaction of a ton of different rules, mechanics and baseline assumptions. Any time we clarify the interaction of all this... it's worth a discussion.

[JamesG]

Re: Hit from behind

 

It's perfectly legal to move around behind someone and take a shot at their back' date=' or to use indirect / partially indirect attacks (including Stretching and Telekinesis) to accomplish the same thing.[/quote']

 

With all due respect, you are mistaken as to the rules.

 

Well, let me rephrase, while it IS legal to "to move around behind someone and take a shot at their back", doing so does not, in general, entitle you to get that shot at 1/2 DCV.

 

As mudpyr8 already pointed out, the 1/2 DCV "from behind" modifier is a subset of the "Surprised" modifier, and a character who is expecting to be attacked is not surprised. So simply running around behind someone will not halve their DCV, assuming they see you doing it.

 

The old FAQ very clearly spelled it out:

Q: Does “Surprised” differ from “being attacked from behind,” and what are the implications for Defense Maneuver and the like?

 

A: Generally speaking, there’s no difference between “Surprised” and “from behind.” The very first sentence describing the Surprised Combat Modifier lists “from behind” as one possible way to be Surprised. The DCV Modifiers Table on 5E 245 lists the condition separately for the simple reason that the table would be largely useless if it didn’t list common conditions modifying DCV — that’s the whole reason it’s there. The “from behind” penalties mirror those for Surprised because they’re the same thing. Next time I’ll put “(Surprised)” in after the entry.

 

If there’s any contradiction here, it lies not in the table but in the text of Surprised itself, which (a) lists separate modifiers for “in combat” and “out of combat,” but ( states that the Modifier doesn’t apply if the character is “expecting [an] attack[.]” Obviously anyone who’s in combat expects to be attacked, but yet Surprised modifiers exist for “in combat” situations (and Defense Maneuver deals with “from behind” situations as well).

 

The solution is to apply the concept of “expecting an attack” with a little common and dramatic sense. Ordinarily a character in combat expects to be attacked. Another attacker leaping out from ambush in addition to whoever’s already attacking him probably isn’t much of a surprise. Neither is a character with Stretching reaching around to smack him “from behind.” In those situations, there’s probably no good reason to apply a “Surprised in combat” modifier.

 

On the other hand, even if someone’s in combat, a new attacker creeping up on him from behind, particularly if Invisible or using Stealth or the like, probably would inflict the “Surprised in combat” modifier on the character, at least for his first attack. It doesn’t make much sense that Invisibility, or even Stealth, would become completely useless in that situation. If the character has good reason to suspect an attack from behind or from an Invisible foe, perhaps the modifier shouldn’t apply — and in any event there are already penalties for being unable to sense an Invisible opponent.

 

The benefit to Defense Maneuver I is that reasonableness of belief becomes irrelevant. The character’s fighting style or perceptions keep him from being Surprised from behind in combat regardless.

 

Now, I do agree that there should be some benefit to attacking "from behind", even if the target knows you are there, which is why I like prestidigitator's +2/+1 for behind/flank attacks. Here is the way I would handle it.

 

If a character is engaged in one on one combat, he won't normally get attacked "from behind", he can automatically rotate to track someone trying to run around behind him.

 

If for some reason he does not want to rotate to track, say he needs to keep an eye on something in front of him, then an attacker could get either the +2 or +1 OCV bonus for behind/flank attacks if they move appropriately. Or if he is surrounded by multiple foes, some of them will get either flank or behind attacks at +1 or +2 OCV. (Plus possibly a multiple attackers bonus).

 

And if the character is attacked by an assassin who successfully used stealth to sneak up behind him, he is "surprised" and at 1/2 DCV vs. the assassin.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Good quote on the FAQ entry. We could have used it for that fight between Nova and Namorita. I normally might give a +1 OCV for surprise maneuver for an attack from behind that the defender can see coming (being able to see the attacker move behind him) as I think 1/2 DCV in that context is a bit excessive. KS convinced me that the rules stated otherwise, but we didn't check the FAQ and find that entry. In the end, though, I don't think it would have altered the flow of that particular fight greatly, if at all.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hit from behind

 

This is one of those situations where I think the segment/phase/SPD system diverges from reality. People don't move or act in that stop-start, go-pause way.

 

If someone is in a fight, they aren't going to just stand there and let someone jog around behind them and stab or shoot them in the back. They'll turn to keep the attacker in front of them. The only time they'll end up with an opponent behind them is when they're surprised by a move (and by that, I don't mean a HERO "Move", but rather a "maneuver"), or when there are multiple attackers.

 

This is one of the cases in which the rules have to be trumped by what can be consider SFX...the "SFX" being two human beings in a fight, and what they'd actually do, not what the segment/phase/SPD and half-moves and whatnot breaks it down into.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit from behind

 

This is one of those situations where I think the segment/phase/SPD system diverges from reality. People don't move or act in that stop-start, go-pause way.

 

If someone is in a fight, they aren't going to just stand there and let someone jog around behind them and stab or shoot them in the back. They'll turn to keep the attacker in front of them. The only time they'll end up with an opponent behind them is when they're surprised by a move (and by that, I don't mean a HERO "Move", but rather a "maneuver"), or when there are multiple attackers.

 

This is one of the cases in which the rules have to be trumped by what can be consider SFX...the "SFX" being two human beings in a fight, and what they'd actually do, not what the segment/phase/SPD and half-moves and whatnot breaks it down into.

Absolutely. I don't ever go so far as to say we should try to track per-Segment movement or do any other sort of real-time simulation, but we have to make some allowances for the fact that combat positioning is dynamic. If I am sparring with someone in real life, and they pass by or start circling, I don't just stand there (unless I am being sneaky about something). It doesn't take the real-life equivalent of an Abort to Dodge or Movement. I simply circle with them and continue with the attack.

 

If I'm not aware of a threat, or there are other opponents, or something is (theoretically) so quick it can dart circles around me before I can react (as I have said I let speedsters use Move By for that one), it is a different matter. But when I am facing one opponent, that opponent is going to have to pull some pretty surprising sh*t to get around behind me unless I am already severely disadvantaged somehow.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Hit from behind

 

The only time they'll end up with an opponent behind them is when they're surprised by a move (and by that' date=' I don't mean a HERO "Move", but rather a "maneuver"), [u']or when there are multiple attackers[/u].

Emphasis added to make a point. I agree that "I run around behind him and hit him in the back" is silly at best. But in the case of multiple attackers, hitting someone from behind should be worth some kind of bonus. Otherwise, what's the point of Def Man I?

 

Whether or not 1/2 DCV is too much of a bonus is a seperate question. Personally, I think it shouldn't be worth as much as surprised in combat, so +2 OCV feels about right to me. But that will probably vary by campaign/genre.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I usually handle this by allowing LDG to make a Dex roll to see if he can react to HDG's move in time to get a shot off before HDG closes. (I suppose you could make it an opposed Dex roll if you really wanted to.) If LDG was set or had a held action I would probably give him the shot automatically. Now if HDG was a 40" Speedster who was only 3" away, I probably wouldn't bother because that's the whole point of being a speedster.

Sounds similar to the mechanc for the Hurry maneuver.

Not really. Hurry doesn't require a DEX roll, unless I've missed something. And I don't give LDG any OCV/DCV penalties for his shot; he's not really rushing his shot, HDG has just sorta delayed his attack by moving first.

 

Not saying you couldn't use Hurry to accomplish the same thing; just saying that's not how I handle it. IMHO/YMMV/etc.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Not really. Hurry doesn't require a DEX roll, unless I've missed something. And I don't give LDG any OCV/DCV penalties for his shot; he's not really rushing his shot, HDG has just sorta delayed his attack by moving first.

 

Not saying you couldn't use Hurry to accomplish the same thing; just saying that's not how I handle it. IMHO/YMMV/etc.

With Hurry, you roll a d6 and add it to your DEX to see how much sooner in the segment you act. Theoretically, your opponent can to this as well, cause you two to "DEX off", high roll wins, to see who goes first (though the character with the higher DEX does have an edge). If both roll, then their bonues/penalties relative to each other cancel out.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Hit from behind

 

With Hurry' date=' you roll a d6 and add it to your DEX to see how much sooner in the segment you act. Theoretically, your opponent can to this as well, cause you two to "DEX off", high roll wins, to see who goes first (though the character with the higher DEX does have an edge). If both roll, then their bonues/penalties relative to each other cancel out.[/quote']

Yes, I know how Hurry works and I have no problem with allowing the maneuver. But that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not changing the DEX order, I'm just allowing abort-to-attack in a very-narrowly-defined set of circumstances, such as charging someone with a readied gun. Again, I'm not saying "my way" is any better, just different. I'm kinda puzzled what you think is so similar about them?

[Kristopher]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Emphasis added to make a point. I agree that "I run around behind him and hit him in the back" is silly at best. But in the case of multiple attackers' date=' hitting someone from behind should be worth [u']some[/u] kind of bonus. Otherwise, what's the point of Def Man I?

 

Whether or not 1/2 DCV is too much of a bonus is a seperate question. Personally, I think it shouldn't be worth as much as surprised in combat, so +2 OCV feels about right to me. But that will probably vary by campaign/genre.

 

FWIW, I was only responding to the idea that because of the way the system works, it's possible, in a combat between two characters of fairly similar SPD and movement, for one of them to run past the other and get some kind of bonus for "attacking from behind".

[Zed-F]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I usually handle this by allowing LDG to make a Dex roll to see if he can react to HDG's move in time to get a shot off before HDG closes. (I suppose you could make it an opposed Dex roll if you really wanted to.) If LDG was set or had a held action I would probably give him the shot automatically. Now if HDG was a 40" Speedster who was only 3" away, I probably wouldn't bother because that's the whole point of being a speedster.

The rules themselves already have provisions for this sort of thing, so there's no need to houserule anything (unless you don't like the official rules...) Officially, if you have a held phase and a ranged weapon, and someone charges you, you just need to win a DEX-off to get your shot in before the other guy reaches you. The same thing applies if you both act on the same DEX and neither hurries; win the DEX-off and you're good to go first. These same rules are used whenever you want to use a Disarm- or Throw-based maneuver on someone who is closing to attack you, for instance. (The specific rules for this are in the Disarm maneuver text, which is p256 of FREd, for example.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Yes' date=' I know how Hurry works and I have no problem with allowing the maneuver. But that's not what I'm doing here. I'm not changing the DEX order, I'm just allowing abort-to-attack in a very-narrowly-defined set of circumstances, such as charging someone with a readied gun. Again, I'm not saying "my way" is any better, just different. I'm kinda puzzled what you think is so similar about them?[/quote']

 

The effect is functionally identical, given neither character is the subjects of attacks from other characters.