The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I don't see "pulling" as a flaw...personally I like "grim and gritty" so if you uncork 12D6 on a soft target you should expect to buy flowers....pulling a punch lets you change the effect in a way that favors you so a penalty seems reasonable.

 

In addition "pulling" in the real world is in fact hard to do, Jack Dempsey lost out on his Hollywood career in part because he never learned how.....not even stuntmen like broken bones when it's Not an accident.

If you are going for a real "silver agey" feel then by all means drop the penaltys to enforce the feel.....

Right. And in the real world when you pull a punch you wouldn't be doing a whole lot of Stun Damage either.

 

A good example of a game in which few would probably drop the penalties would be one in the horror genre. In a horror-style game I could see it being reasonable to disallow the maneuver completely, in fact.

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

That may be so...but the first time someone trys to "pull" a Haymaker, I'll be temped to try it out on them just to verify it's possable!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

That may be so...but the first time someone trys to "pull" a Haymaker' date=' I'll be temped to try it out on them just to verify it's possable![/quote']

 

Hence, the Nerf Bat I'm trying to design.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

That may be so...but the first time someone trys to "pull" a Haymaker' date=' I'll be temped to try it out on them just to verify it's possable![/quote']

 

I'll agree with this. I've never allowed someone to Pull a Haymaker. Offensive Strikes and similar maneuvers as well. It just doesn't make sense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

That may be so...but the first time someone trys to "pull" a Haymaker' date=' I'll be temped to try it out on them just to verify it's possable![/quote']

 

So long as you accept being doused in gasoline and ignited when you pull out a villain who is "Immune to Heat/Flame". After all, we need to verify it's possible, right?

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

So long as you accept being doused in gasoline and ignited when you pull out a villain who is "Immune to Heat/Flame". After all' date=' we need to verify it's possible, right?[/quote']

Where is the love...thats all I'm asking....where is the Love? Even so I just aint buying Offensive strike and haymakers being pulled...and Don't get me started on "pulled movethroughs!"..."I'll do a pushed movethrough....oh and I'll pull in case he's squishy"

[Threnody]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Something I've been wanting to make for a while is 'Kid Gloves' for a brick or martial artist; basically, when they're on, his unarmed strikes are Stun Only, and when off, he does damage normally. The obvious use being that he doesn't have to pull punches against lightly-defended targets. No BODY damage, no Knockback, no problem decking a five year old who happens to be possessed by a demon.

 

Normally, Naked Modifiers would be used for this sort of thing, but Stun Only is a -/+0 modifier, if it qualifies as something other than a special effect. Which means it would be, basically, free ... admittedly, it's not like he's getting a huge benefit anyway, but still, it does seem like some manner of benefit.

 

How should this be set up?

Take that there Lim-vantage "STUN Only" and put it by itself. Add in OIF Kid Gloves (I'm guessing you mean for it to be an OIF, if not, adjust how you like).

 

Base cost 0, Active cost 0, Real cost (0/(1+1/2)=) 0.

 

If you don't want it should be for free, slap "Minimum cost of everything is 1" on it and call it good.

 

Personally, you all are overthinking this, seems to me.

[Mentor]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I gotta go along with buying the appropriate Martial Maneuver. Bricks with 40+ STR usually break important important stuff when they punch, whether they intend to or not. Making it difficult and expensive to pull ones punch doesn't seem far fetched if you want to control the damage any.

 

Martial Artists can do STUN only strikes just by buying the appropriate maneuver and other characters can certainly do it by using the appropriate SFX and modifier.

 

It seems reasonable to me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Where is the love...thats all I'm asking....where is the Love? Even so I just aint buying Offensive strike and haymakers being pulled...and Don't get me started on "pulled movethroughs!"..."I'll do a pushed movethrough....oh and I'll pull in case he's squishy"

 

While I'm against pulling a haymaker/offensive strike, I'm perfectly okay with putting a Move By or Move Through. It's like a body check, primarily done to knock someone down and make them dizzy for a sec. It doesn't really hurt the target much.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Take that there Lim-vantage "STUN Only" and put it by itself. Add in OIF Kid Gloves (I'm guessing you mean for it to be an OIF, if not, adjust how you like).

 

Base cost 0, Active cost 0, Real cost (0/(1+1/2)=) 0.

 

If you don't want it should be for free, slap "Minimum cost of everything is 1" on it and call it good.

 

Personally, you all are overthinking this, seems to me.

 

I got another option for the write up. For the purposes of the "Kid Gloves" write-up, call the STUN Only Modifier an Advantage.

 

Kid Gloves: STUN Only (+1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of HTH Damage (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2). Real Cost: 10.

 

"HTH Damage" is any normal damage from STR, Martial Arts, HA and similar.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Where is the love...thats all I'm asking....where is the Love?

 

Even so I just aint buying Offensive strike and haymakers being pulled...and Don't get me started on "pulled movethroughs!"..."I'll do a pushed movethrough....oh and I'll pull in case he's squishy"

 

I have a bit more trouble with simultaneously putting extra effort into the strike (Haymaker) and reducing the damage it will cause (Pull). That said, however, can't you put everything you've got into the strike (Haymaker), but strike at a less vulnerable location (shoulders/chest rather than head/vitals/stomach) to inflict less serious damage?

 

If we accept it't possible to hit just as hard but do less damage, why are certain maneuvers that much more of a stretch?

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Woah! Douple post. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Personally' date=' you all are overthinking this, seems to me. [/quote']

 

Yeah, I'm good at that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Woah! Douple post. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

 

Fixed (noted just so you don't think you were seeing double)!

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I have a bit more trouble with simultaneously putting extra effort into the strike (Haymaker) and reducing the damage it will cause (Pull). That said, however, can't you put everything you've got into the strike (Haymaker), but strike at a less vulnerable location (shoulders/chest rather than head/vitals/stomach) to inflict less serious damage?

 

If we accept it't possible to hit just as hard but do less damage, why are certain maneuvers that much more of a stretch?

 

I think we'll ultimately have to agree to disagree....for me "I'll put forth maximum effort....Gently" just bugs me.....because it's a feeling rather than a reason, mere logic is not enough....plus I'm insanely stubburn......

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

While I'm against pulling a haymaker/offensive strike' date=' I'm perfectly okay with putting a Move By or Move Through. It's like a body check, primarily done to knock someone down and make them dizzy for a sec. It doesn't really hurt the target much.[/quote']

To me thats back to just plain doing less damage...i.e. "just knocking him down" Pulling is doing full damage vs stun while carefully not doing much (or any ) Body...in my minds eye full out alpha strike moves just don't fit that model..."I charge at full speed and smash into him, but not too hard...Oh and I cushion his head so it dosent strike the ground...while still slamming him hard enough to knock him out..." me: "grrrr..." (internal theatre is malfuncioning...Oh my god Moriarty has gottin out again!)

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

To me thats back to just plain doing less damage...i.e. "just knocking him down" Pulling is doing full damage vs stun while carefully not doing much (or any ) Body...in my minds eye full out alpha strike moves just don't fit that model..."I charge at full speed and smash into him' date=' but not too hard...Oh and I cushion his head so it dosent strike the ground...while still slamming him hard enough to knock him out..." me: "grrrr..." (internal theatre is malfuncioning...Oh my god Moriarty has gottin out again!)[/quote']

 

Well, that's why there's a penalty.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Something I've been wanting to make for a while is 'Kid Gloves' for a brick or martial artist; basically, when they're on, his unarmed strikes are Stun Only, and when off, he does damage normally. The obvious use being that he doesn't have to pull punches against lightly-defended targets. No BODY damage, no Knockback, no problem decking a five year old who happens to be possessed by a demon.

 

Normally, Naked Modifiers would be used for this sort of thing, but Stun Only is a -/+0 modifier, if it qualifies as something other than a special effect. Which means it would be, basically, free ... admittedly, it's not like he's getting a huge benefit anyway, but still, it does seem like some manner of benefit.

 

How should this be set up?

 

Well.

 

1. Is it an advantage to be able to chose to do normal or stun only damage. I'd have to say yes.

 

2. OK so if it is an advnatage we can deal with it in two ways: either make it cost more or apply a penalty to the attack. Pulling a punch is the obvious candidate for the penalty option but it goes much further - it does no stun. Ultra pulling should be -2 OCV per 5DCs and never does BODY damage with unarmed strikes. Assuming you can max out at 15DCs that would be -6 OCV, which would cost 30 points to balance out with 5 point levels, which would mean your kid gloves could be bought as:

 

+6 OCV 30 points with unarmed strikes only (-1/2) only to counter penalties for ultra pulling (-1) OIF -1/2 total cost 10 points.

 

OK the other way - making it cost more - can't do it with a naked advantage as that is +0, so let's do it with a MP (or at least base the cost on that). Say you have 60 STR, the cost would be (if the STR was in a MP)

 

60 STR MP

6 Normal STR

4 Stun only STR (OIF)

 

So it would cost an additional 10 points (the same as before, given the figures I chose).

 

So I reckon about 10 points is the cost it should come out at for this ability. I know the calculations are dodgy and the MP is illegal - I'm just looking at costs here.

 

The other alternative is to say that whilst STUN ONLY is -0, the ability to switch between stun only and normal is +1/4 and just advantage your strength - sort of variable advantage cost for a +0 power. Actually, thinking on it, that's the way I'd go with it - variable advantage: far more book legal than the stuff above, but it all works out in the same ball park anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I think we'll ultimately have to agree to disagree....for me "I'll put forth maximum effort....Gently" just bugs me.....because it's a feeling rather than a reason' date=' mere logic is not enough....plus I'm insanely stubburn......[/quote']

 

I can't see pulling a punch being "I hit him gently". You're not hitting him gently. That would be reducing the DC's in your attack. You're hitting the target full-force and maximizing the STUN damage done. However, you're minimizing the BOD damage.

 

Given it's not "a gentle love tap", the pulling a punch mechanic logically must imply that the character is striking some less vulnerable area to avoid doing BOD damage without reducing STUN.

[JmOz]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

IN MY GAME: I would call it a +1/4 advantage and make them apply it to the greatest DC attack they have, so assuming a 16d6 Offensive Strike I would charge 20 points for the ability, this would IN MY GAME cover all martial arts, and basic manuevers

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I can't see pulling a punch being "I hit him gently". You're not hitting him gently. That would be reducing the DC's in your attack. You're hitting the target full-force and maximizing the STUN damage done. However, you're minimizing the BOD damage.

 

Given it's not "a gentle love tap", the pulling a punch mechanic logically must imply that the character is striking some less vulnerable area to avoid doing BOD damage without reducing STUN.

 

Of course, one thing to keep in mind is the difference between SFX and game mechanics. From what I can tell, Pulling a Punch applies to any HTH attack, including Offensive Strikes, Haymakers and Move Throughs, and recognize the SFX of "I hit him in such as way as he fell the full impact of the strike but takes little physical damage from it" as a valid option for all maneuvers.

 

It's in the same category of WTF rules as having a perfectly normal letter opener to 3d6K and a giant flaming vibro-axe to 3d6N. It's all legal. It's all allowed. Might not be the most logical thing to do, but it is legal.

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Of course, one thing to keep in mind is the difference between SFX and game mechanics. From what I can tell, Pulling a Punch applies to any HTH attack, including Offensive Strikes, Haymakers and Move Throughs, and recognize the SFX of "I hit him in such as way as he fell the full impact of the strike but takes little physical damage from it" as a valid option for all maneuvers.

 

It's in the same category of WTF rules as having a perfectly normal letter opener to 3d6K and a giant flaming vibro-axe to 3d6N. It's all legal. It's all allowed. Might not be the most logical thing to do, but it is legal.

Yeah both you and Hugh make completely valid points....but I'll not do it thata way 'cause it bugs me......I suspect many odd rulings are ultimately based on a ill defined "gut feeling".....besides Moriarty made me do it!

[Threnody]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Personally, you all are overthinking this, seems to me.

Yeah, I'm good at that.

 

:rofl:I wasn't pointing fingers, y'know.