The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

[CrosshairCollie]

Something I've been wanting to make for a while is 'Kid Gloves' for a brick or martial artist; basically, when they're on, his unarmed strikes are Stun Only, and when off, he does damage normally. The obvious use being that he doesn't have to pull punches against lightly-defended targets. No BODY damage, no Knockback, no problem decking a five year old who happens to be possessed by a demon.

 

Normally, Naked Modifiers would be used for this sort of thing, but Stun Only is a -/+0 modifier, if it qualifies as something other than a special effect. Which means it would be, basically, free ... admittedly, it's not like he's getting a huge benefit anyway, but still, it does seem like some manner of benefit.

 

How should this be set up?

[Kelcyron]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I think there's a rule somewhere that anything is minumum cost 1, but that still leaves it very cheap to buy the "naked advantage"/"naked limitation" of Stun Only. Even if you apply this individually to his STR, HA/HKA, and/or martial DC's, it comes to maybe 5 points.

 

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not sure.

 

Kelcyron

[Manic Typist]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

No BODY damage, no Knockback, no problem decking a five year old who happens to be possessed by a demon.

 

 

.... this sounds like it comes from experience. Have you been burned in the past?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

.... this sounds like it comes from experience. Have you been burned in the past?

 

Well, it's kind of like being responsibly careless. Always use protection!

 

Besides, one fairly common trick is the 'normal in the supervillain costume', or other 'your first impulse will be to open fire with everything but it's a bad idea' scenarios. Experienced heroes should hedge their bets.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

This is why God invented Nerve Strikes and other martial NND attacks. Why reinvent the wheel when there's already a simple way to accomplish this?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Maybe take the difference in cost between the normal Attack Power and a two-fixed-slot Multipower with the second slot being Stun Only? Since all Limitations should be common to the Multipower, that should be a difference of... ...an extra 0.2*RealCost, I think. Or you could just use that to determine that an Advantage which lets you choose to do Stun or not should be about +1/4. Looks pretty close to me, and sounds reasonable.

[Solomon]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Some more ways:

- Bribe your GM into waiving penalties for Pulling Punches, as suggested by 5er.

- Buy some Levels only to offset Pulling Punch penalties.

- Buy your attacks as a Multipower (Normal and Stun Only).

- Peg "can swith between Normal and Stun Only" as a +1/4 advantage and call it a day.

 

EDIT: Prestidigitator beat me to it.

[McCoy]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

.... this sounds like it comes from experience. Have you been burned in the past?

You mean you haven't?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

This is why God invented Nerve Strikes and other martial NND attacks. Why reinvent the wheel when there's already a simple way to accomplish this?

 

Because it's not too hard to be immune to most Martial NNDs in a supers game, at least in my experience, plus this works for bricks who don't go in for that whole 'finesse' thing.

[Lucius]

The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

This is why God invented Nerve Strikes and other martial NND attacks. Why reinvent the wheel when there's already a simple way to accomplish this?

 

Basically, because you'd be better off buying a Hand Attack and making it NND.

 

As I recall, the Ultimate Martial Artist said NND attacks HAVE to be bought such that you can't add STR, and they go up to a max of 2d6. So the average strike does not even stun a normal with a CON of 8. And the max does not even stun anyone who bought CON up to 13 or more.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a No Normal Defense Palindromedary

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Radical thought: Multiform. Default form, everything is normal. Multiform, everything is STUN Only.

 

Yeah, way too expensive.

 

I'd say just buy CSLs with Pulled Punches. State your concept to the GM and see if he'll allow you to say such attacks to no BODY rather than half. I'd allow it.

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Yeah, dosen't pulling qualify for PSL's? if they do its waaaay cheap..... even at 2 points it's likely cheaper than buying something fancy...like say a HA; Stun only, IIF "kid gloves" ?...OK that should be real cheap too....

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Yeah' date=' dosen't pulling qualify for PSL's? if they do its waaaay cheap..... even at 2 points it's likely cheaper than buying something fancy...like say a HA; Stun only, IIF "kid gloves" ?...OK that should be real cheap too....[/quote']

No. The modifiers to OCV that are a part of the maneuver are not attack roll, "penalties." Same reason you have to buy CSLs--not PSLs--for Sweep and Rapid Fire.

 

Also, I believe Pulling a Punch is a maneuver unto itself; you cannot combine it with other maneuvers, can you? So you couldn't Pull a Legsweep, for example. Takes some of the fun out of it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Pulling a Punch I consider one of those "meta" maneuvers, like Hurry. It's something you apply to or use to modify whatever maneuver you are using. Of course, there are just somethings you can't Pull, like a sword thrust. You're only option there is to just roll less dice for damage.

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Dang...they come up with something cool then say you can't use it!!! (this reminds me of a off color joke about sex and religious teachings...) Still +X OCV with "pulled punches" should be dang cheap....(or buy the HA....)

[Mike W]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Actually, this has always been one of the places where HERO really bugs me. The penalties for trying to do less damage(especially pulling your punch) are HUGE. To me, it's ridiculous to make it so hard to do less damage with a punch when an Energy Blaster can choose to just not use all of his power. Besides, pulling your punch is responsible and heroic. I hate the idea that there is such a severe penalty for being responsible and heroic when you're attempting a pretty basic maneuver like a strike. I'd be inclined to let anyone who wants add or subtract STUN Only at will if it was cinematically appropriate/responsible.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Actually' date=' this has always been one of the places where HERO really bugs me. The penalties for trying to do less damage(especially pulling your punch) are HUGE. To me, it's ridiculous to make it so hard to do less damage with a punch when an Energy Blaster can choose to just not use all of his power. Besides, pulling your punch is responsible and heroic. I hate the idea that there is such a severe penalty for being responsible and heroic when you're attempting a pretty basic maneuver like a strike. I'd be inclined to let anyone who wants add or subtract STUN Only at will if it was cinematically appropriate/responsible.[/quote']

 

Actually, you can just choose to use less Strength when you punch, just like not throwing a full energy blast.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Actually' date=' this has always been one of the places where HERO really bugs me. The penalties for trying to do less damage(especially pulling your punch) are HUGE. To me, it's ridiculous to make it so hard to do less damage with a punch when an Energy Blaster can choose to just not use all of his power. Besides, pulling your punch is responsible and heroic. I hate the idea that there is such a severe penalty for being responsible and heroic when you're attempting a pretty basic maneuver like a strike. I'd be inclined to let anyone who wants add or subtract STUN Only at will if it was cinematically appropriate/responsible.[/quote']

That's why it is suggested that the OCV modifier for Pulling a Punch be dropped for superheroic games.

 

For heroic games...eh; up to you. I personally tend to go more for realism in this sort of thing when running a heroic game, so I keep the penalties; for heros death is a constant threat, and it is not all that easy to knock someone out and make sure you do no lasting damage.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Hey, let's all pick on Mike!

 

Actually' date=' this has always been one of the places where HERO really bugs me. The penalties for trying to do less damage(especially pulling your punch) are HUGE. To me, it's ridiculous to make it so hard to do less damage with a punch when an Energy Blaster can choose to just not use all of his power. Besides, pulling your punch is responsible and heroic. I hate the idea that there is such a severe penalty for being responsible and heroic when you're attempting a pretty basic maneuver like a strike. I'd be inclined to let anyone who wants add or subtract STUN Only at will if it was cinematically appropriate/responsible.[/quote']

 

Well, what they said, but what matters to me if the fact you are trying to use your Power in a way in which it wasn't built. Making an EB STUN Only has a permanent effect on how that Power works. You can NEVER to BODY with it. If you didn't build your Power that way, you can try to Pull the Punch, but take a penalty for doing so because that's not how the Power works.

[Manic Typist]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

You mean you haven't?

 

Not by a demon possesing a five year old child!!!

[Steve]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

No. The modifiers to OCV that are a part of the maneuver are not attack roll, "penalties." Same reason you have to buy CSLs--not PSLs--for Sweep and Rapid Fire.

 

Also, I believe Pulling a Punch is a maneuver unto itself; you cannot combine it with other maneuvers, can you? So you couldn't Pull a Legsweep, for example. Takes some of the fun out of it.

 

You can Pull A Punch with any melee combat maneuver (according to page 395 of Revised 5th), and even with a ranged attack with GM permission.

 

Now, assuming a 10d6 attack, buying 2 levels with HTH (10 Active) through an IIF (-1/4) that can only be used to offset penalties for pulling (-1) works out to 4 points by my calculations. I believe since the penalty is based on -1/5d6 that up to 12d6 would be covered by the 4 point purchase, but going up to 13d6 would require paying 7 points for 3 levels. Not too bad actually, IMHO.

[Mike W]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

That's why it is suggested that the OCV modifier for Pulling a Punch be dropped for superheroic games.

 

For heroic games...eh; up to you. I personally tend to go more for realism in this sort of thing when running a heroic game, so I keep the penalties; for heros death is a constant threat, and it is not all that easy to knock someone out and make sure you do no lasting damage.

 

1. I've always dropped the penalty for pulling a punch. I don't understand why you would ever enforce the penalty to begin with. I still think that it's one of those places where the game has problems. Why even have the rule if you're expected to ignore it?

 

2. You can do less than full damage by pulling DCs but you have to worry sometimes about getting enough damage to knock someone out(especially true of agents). Pull too many DCs and you can't knock the person out. There are a lot of published characters where this would be a problem too, but since I never use them as written, this isn't such a problem.

[Mike W]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

Hey, let's all pick on Mike!

 

 

 

Well, what they said, but what matters to me if the fact you are trying to use your Power in a way in which it wasn't built. Making an EB STUN Only has a permanent effect on how that Power works. You can NEVER to BODY with it. If you didn't build your Power that way, you can try to Pull the Punch, but take a penalty for doing so because that's not how the Power works.

 

This is a classic case where Marvel's old "Power Stunt" rule was great. It was the one thing that game had that really rocked. A buddy of mine and I were toying with adapting that rule over, but then we wound up with inexperienced players and decided to shelve it. As I recall, it worked something like this:

 

You spend 1XP for every 10AP on the spot to tweak your power or stretch it. You can't change the active points in the power but you CAN use it to do something that requires a type of control you didn't have before - even if this means "rewriting" it as a new power. So you can take your 10D6 EB, drop 5 XP and change it to Minor Transform to spot weld something in place. Or you can rewrite it as a Stun Only power so you don't hurt someone. And so on. It lets you do all that stuff that strictly isn't defined by your character sheet but that it "makes sense you could do it" according to your power description. But rather than have to buy the whole power, you can basically buy a one shot use of it to try to learn something on the spot. BTW: The XP don't go away, they go into a "bank" towards purchasing the exact power you just tried, whether or not you were actually successful.

[pinecone]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

I don't see "pulling" as a flaw...personally I like "grim and gritty" so if you uncork 12D6 on a soft target you should expect to buy flowers....pulling a punch lets you change the effect in a way that favors you so a penalty seems reasonable.

 

In addition "pulling" in the real world is in fact hard to do, Jack Dempsey lost out on his Hollywood career in part because he never learned how.....not even stuntmen like broken bones when it's Not an accident.

If you are going for a real "silver agey" feel then by all means drop the penaltys to enforce the feel.....

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Kid Gloves Are ... on?

 

You can Pull A Punch with any melee combat maneuver (according to page 395 of Revised 5th)' date=' and even with a ranged attack with GM permission.[/quote']

Ah. Okay. Very well then.