potion

[steph]

ok my character are herborist with all the skill he needs (herb lore etc etc) and is also a potion maker .....with the skill inventor for new potions spells and brew potion for make it.........now if my character find a herb with a appropriate and the herb is brew in a potion (healing).......the character have to pay in character point for the effect ? or not

hope i am clear english not my first language

stef

[Old Man]

Re: potion

 

I think you pay for the ability to Make Potions, not the potions themselves.

[John Desmarais]

Re: potion

 

ok my character are herborist with all the skill he needs (herb lore etc etc) and is also a potion maker .....with the skill inventor for new potions spells and brew potion for make it.........now if my character find a herb with a appropriate and the herb is brew in a potion (healing).......the character have to pay in character point for the effect ? or not

hope i am clear english not my first language

stef

I hate to answer a question in such a vague manner - but it depends.

 

This is really one of those things that comes relies heavily on the magic system your GM is using in the game. Is the game using Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, or "something else"?

[steph]

Re: potion

 

we play in the turakian age

stef.....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: potion

 

I don't know enough to comment, really. It's apples & oranges.

 

Either a) you pay for a one-shot potion with a boatload of lims on it... but still a potion you pay for (i.e., OAF Fragile, Independent, 1 Charge... that's -5 1/2 right there) and then you use a basic power, such as... Simple Healing 6d6 (60 Active). If you have a good, kind DM, you pay for the 60/6.5 = about 9 CP for the potion. Ouch.

 

If it were me, I'd likely charge 1/10th of the Real Cost in creation fees of CP, and the rest in materiels. In which case, it would be 1 CP rounded, and whatever I thought was dramatically appropriate. Usually X amount of Gold per Active Point with multiplier steps. 10 Active? 100 Gold. 20 Active? Maybe 400. 30 Active? 900. And so on. By the time you reach 90 active you're talking about exorbitant fees - but that's the price of science.

 

I don't know bo-diddly about the various ages; the truth is there's as many ways to have a PC pay for a built item in HERO as there are campaigns. If you have a copy of Fantasy HERO you may want to leaf through it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: potion

 

Depends on the Magic System in effect.

 

Personally, I treat all Magic Items built with NON RECOVERABLE CHARGES whether they be Potions, Wands, or whatever as effectively Equipment -- you pay money for them.

 

I discuss all of that in this document:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItems.shtml

 

There are some sample Potions in this document towards the bottom:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/characterCreation.shtml

[prestidigitator]

Re: potion

 

I charge Character Points for items, whether expendable or not. The expendable ones will have plenty of Limitations to make them cheap, such as those already mentioned.

 

However, I also allow a limited amount of Character Points for building items to come from materials and items found during play. So making a potion might cost the character no actual points if certain rare materials found from a quest are used.

 

It gives flavor and helps to ensure that items aren't created left and right even if the character doesn't have to spend a bunch of hard-earned experience on them.

[gojira]

Re: potion

 

I guess you could use a Gadget Pool too. It would fit the motif. The character has a bunch of items (potions) for an adventure, he uses them up, next adventure he has a bunch if items (potions) again.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: potion

 

One published method for potion making that's been around for a while, is to have an alchemist or similar potion-brewer buy each potion that he can make as a Power that requires an Expendable Focus (ingredients), with a Trigger (drinking it, splashing it on yourself, etc.), and Usable On Others. The character buys the potion Power once, then can store any number of potions for later use, and give (or sell) them to other people to use. This makes the potion-maker simply another type of spellcaster, balanced with other spell casters in your campaign.

[prestidigitator]

Re: potion

 

One published method for potion making that's been around for a while' date=' is to have an alchemist or similar potion-brewer buy each potion that he can make as a Power that requires an Expendable Focus (ingredients), with a Trigger (drinking it, splashing it on yourself, etc.), and Usable On Others. The character buys the potion Power once, then can store any number of potions for later use, and give (or sell) them to other people to use. This makes the potion-maker simply another type of spellcaster, balanced with other spell casters in your campaign.[/quote']

Or simply Delayed Effect, though for some reason I have never liked that a whole lot. I think the Expendable Focus and/or Charges (whether you want to make them Recoverable or not) works better.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: potion

 

Or simply Delayed Effect' date=' though for some reason I have never liked that a whole lot. I think the Expendable Focus and/or Charges (whether you want to make them Recoverable or not) works better.[/quote']

 

Delayed Effect "can only be used in campaigns where the GM has set a limit on the number of Powers which a character can have activated or in use at one time...". Personally I like alchemists to be able to sell the potions they create, so this stricture wouldn't work from a making-a-living perspective. Since Trigger has no time limit it amounts to the same thing in practice. The alchemist can take the Extra Time Limitation for brewing potions, but can still have some on his person ready for instant use, making him more combat-effective.

 

In the past when using the potion-brewing method I described above, I generally do build potions with Recoverable Charges, the method of "recovering" them being simply having access to more prepared potions. Otherwise the Charges Limitation wouldn't make much sense for something you can prepare in advance multiple times.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: potion

 

Here's my opinion on Delayed Effect:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=904473&postcount=152

[prestidigitator]

Re: potion

 

Here's my opinion on Delayed Effect:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=904473&postcount=152

Hmm. I still see it as an Advantage. It does relieve the need to use Limitations when gaining the actual benefit of the Power, after all (what disappoints me is actually the lack of a standard way to apply some Limitations when preparing the delayed effect and some when using it--so I usually just fake it ). The restriction on the number of delayed effects is only a big deal if all Powers have Delayed Effect. So building a whole magic system around it has never been appealing to me, but using it for expendable magical items could be okay.

 

Could it be replaced with simple Triggers? Well, yeah. I suppose so. Eh. I suppose it may be like the difference between using the Two-Weapon Fighting skill and allowing the Sweep/Rapid Fire maneuvers normally.

[Play4Keeps]

Re: potion

 

Turakian Age? You're probably using the Fantasy Hero Grimoire and Fantasy Hero Grimoire II.

 

In Fantasy Hero Grimoire on page 6 is says the Turakian/Fantasy Hero Grimoire way of building powers as potions is based on Fantasy Hero, page 281.

 

You buy the power to make potions, you don't buy them potion by potion.

 

I don't get what you're talking about with the thing about herbs, though.

[John Desmarais]

Re: potion

 

I don't get what you're talking about with the thing about herbs, though.

I think he means that his character has a lot of knowledge regarding medical/magic herbs (ie. an herbalist) - this is his rationale for making potions. Further, I think he is asking if he can avoid paying points for the potions by finding herbs that have the properties of the desired effects.

 

As a GM, I would require that points be paid (as per the magic system in use) for any potions made. Having or finding the appropriate herbs is merely a way of satifying the "focus" limitation.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: potion

 

Hmm. I still see it as an Advantage. It does relieve the need to use Limitations when gaining the actual benefit of the Power' date=' after all (what disappoints me is actually the lack of a [i']standard[/i] way to apply some Limitations when preparing the delayed effect and some when using it--so I usually just fake it ). The restriction on the number of delayed effects is only a big deal if all Powers have Delayed Effect. So building a whole magic system around it has never been appealing to me, but using it for expendable magical items could be okay.

But when you factor in the hidden limitation of X Number of Spells (TOTAL), the cons far out weigh the pros.

 

Its more limiting than advantaging, ergo it is really a Limitation.

 

The main flaw of Delayed Effect is that it is, in the computer science way of thinking, non orthogonal. In and of itself, this isnt a death stroke -- for instance my Gestalt Casting \ Arcanis Magnicus Magic System is deliberately designed to be non orthoganal and it works pretty well (IMO):

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/vancianGestaltVPP.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/arcanisMagnicus.shtml

 

However, the non orthoganlity of that Magic system is in one vector -- laterally -- where as the non orthoganality of Delayed Effect is in two vectors -- horizontally and vertically. Both more powers and more active points (since it is handled with an advantage) cause expanding costs for little real benefit.

 

Which is to say that in the Gestalt Casting model Spells of the same tier or "spell level" share charges, but charges are not shared across tiers or "spell levels'. Further, the Charges are taken as Limitations unless the Charge Lim naturally grows into an Advantage. This more properly represents that having a limited number of uses shared across abilities is more of a hindrance than a benefit.

 

Could it be replaced with simple Triggers? Well, yeah. I suppose so. Eh. I suppose it may be like the difference between using the Two-Weapon Fighting skill and allowing the Sweep/Rapid Fire maneuvers normally.

 

I disagree. For starters, theres an option for TWF that if you allow Sweep / Rapid Fire by default (and I do, for the record) that keeps TWF competitive. Further the underlying mechanic for both are essentially the same.

 

On the other hand Trigger is a much more flexible and robust model than Delayed Effect. Its a roaring Ferrari compared to the Beverly Hillbilly truck. It's leaner, meaner, handles and performs better, looks better, is easier to maintain, and amazingly costs about the same or less.

[Frenchman]

Re: potion

 

Another benefit (setting-wise) of using trigger rather than delayed effect is that potions become susceptible to dispels.

As a sidebar explains (ReFred 255): "A power prepared with Delayed Effect has been prepared, but not yet activated and used. A power built with Trigget has been prepared and activated, but not yet used."

This does add a point in favor of Delayed Effect though (cost-wise), since a potion or 'memorized spell' built with delayed effect cannot be wiped out with a dispel.

[Frenchman]

Re: potion

 

Hmm... After reading KS's linked post, I remembered something. (sorry Steph for hijacking your thread)

 

Way back when my group was first starting Hero we were going to use Delayed Effect to re-create a dnd style magic system, and we came up with two variations on DE.

 

1: We would allow a character to buy different levels of DE on each of their spells. So instead of having to buy DE x2 for ALL of his spells to be able to cast more firebolts, they could just buy DE x2 on Firebolt, and then preparing a single firebolt only cost 1/2 a slot. Or buy DE x3 and it cost 1/4.

 

2: Still thinking it made casters too expensive, we thought about buying DE as a naked advantage. You only paid for it once and you could buy more low-powered spells than high-powered ones if you wanted to by buying DE x1 for 50 AP, DE +1x for 30 AP, and DE +1x more for 20 AP, or whatever.

 

We liked the second one so much that we almost used it - and then decided to just try the default Hero way instead. We like that better.

[prestidigitator]

Re: potion

 

Another benefit (setting-wise) of using trigger rather than delayed effect is that potions become susceptible to dispels.

As a sidebar explains (ReFred 255): "A power prepared with Delayed Effect has been prepared, but not yet activated and used. A power built with Trigget has been prepared and activated, but not yet used."

This does add a point in favor of Delayed Effect though (cost-wise), since a potion or 'memorized spell' built with delayed effect cannot be wiped out with a dispel.

Good point. I suppose a Suppression big enough to turn off the Triggered power might also do the job, so don't take any such Triggers into a Magic Suppression Field....