Entangling giants

[Sean Waters]

Here's a thought:

 

Glue Girl has a power that enables her to squirt sticky fluids at people she wants to restrain (oo-er).

 

She likes the look of Monstrous Man, who is currently a little under 40 metres tall, and qould quite like him all trussed up, so she squirts him.

 

Given that he is a single target, and the Entangle is not AoE, it SHOULD effect him normally. In practice, applying sfx, the glue is simply not produced in sufficient quantities to do more than (at most) stick one of his feet to the ground, even though it is theoretically strong enough to hold him at least for a little while.

 

How would you rule on this: you risk wither making Glue Girl's main power useless or bursting the bubble of (sticky) suspended disbelief?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I suppose the converse of this is whether, if you are shooting at small (maybe shrunk) targets the attack should eb considered, in some way, area effect....

[CBikle]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Just for game-balance alone (IMO, the entangle power has become too-watered down), I'd be inclined to say that the entangle affects the giant as it normally would.

 

Usually, you're only going to see NPCs reach the really high ends of growth and I'd think that most GMs would be inclined to rule in the NPC giant's favor (especially if it's a lone monster type NPC giant).

 

I don't recall the rules for entangle (or TK for that matter) going into too much detail in this area.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangling giants

 

If the giant can grow and shrink he can get out of an entangle easy enough anyway. I was looking at the grab rules though and there is commentary that size matters: if you can't get your arms round one of your opponent's legs then it is going to be hard to effectively restrain him with a grab.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangling giants

 

If the giant can grow and shrink he can get out of an entangle easy enough anyway. I was looking at the grab rules though and there is commentary that size matters: if you can't get your arms round one of your opponent's legs then it is going to be hard to effectively restrain him with a grab.

 

Grab is free. Entangle costs character points. I see no reason MonsterMan should become immune to the Entangle because he bought Growth. When he easily breaks out due to his approximately 75 STR (he has about 13 levels of growth based on his height), this is easily explained as "not enough glue to hold him".

 

There's a bit of a realism gap, but not much different from any Brick being unable to just break the bits of the entangle impeding his arms and then being able to take a shot at a nearby target, rather than being required to remove the entangle entirely so his movement is unimpeded.

 

Now, if Glue Girl wanted to take a Limitation on her entangle, and there are lots of giants around, a -1/4 might be appropriate.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Entangling giants

 

For me it would depend a lot on the game and the circumstances. In a superhero game in which the character paid points for a full Entangle, I would be more inclined to affect the whole target. In a heroic game I would let, "realism," hold a little more sway, and might automatically treat the Entangle as it it were Limited to affect part of a target only. The attacker might be able to counter this by making successive attacks (assuming the target has not been able to break free) that cover more of the target rather than adding to the Entangle's Body. Autofire could also be useful for this. I might even let the attacker Spread it in a similar manner to the way EBs are Spread, but if you're doing this to a big target it had obviously better be a strong Entangle.

 

Either way I would not have an Entangle act as an Area of Effect attack against small characters. Open that door and we might have to start doing it with all attacks, and I just don't want to go there. In a very, very limited heroic circumstance maybe, but I'm never going to make it the norm. (It might also be a good Power Trick.)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Entangling giants

 

How about you just think around the situation?

 

Glue Girl, seeing the difficulty of her target, knows she can't just douse him down. So, she uses finesse. She gives a fine squirt to each of his feet, to his fingers, across his hands so they are stuck to his hips, etc. Rather than have her create more of the stuff, simply have her use it BETTER. A few wisely placed shots could entangle a giant pretty thoroughly. After all, the concepts of leverage STILL apply, even to a giant.

[schir1964]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Here's a thought:

 

Glue Girl has a power that enables her to squirt sticky fluids at people she wants to restrain (oo-er).

 

She likes the look of Monstrous Man, who is currently a little under 40 metres tall, and qould quite like him all trussed up, so she squirts him.

 

Given that he is a single target, and the Entangle is not AoE, it SHOULD effect him normally. In practice, applying sfx, the glue is simply not produced in sufficient quantities to do more than (at most) stick one of his feet to the ground, even though it is theoretically strong enough to hold him at least for a little while.

 

How would you rule on this: you risk wither making Glue Girl's main power useless or bursting the bubble of (sticky) suspended disbelief?

You are touching on a concept that another posting put forth in another thread.

 

Basically, they wanted to know how the scale everything for Growth/Sthrinking, including attacks and defenses.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I would think, rules-wise, that the Entangle works normally against the giant regardless of size. Same thing with shrunked targets. SFX should play a part though. If the Entangle's SFX is a "glowing field is immovability" I see no reason why it couldn't glow around the giant. If the Entangle is "wraps a rope around the target, binding him" and the rope just isn't big enough to wrap around the giant, then it shouldn't work. Of course, the rope Entangle is likely to have other Limitation on it (such as Limited Lims) so the lack of functionality is perfectly justified.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangling giants

 

How about you just think around the situation?

 

Glue Girl, seeing the difficulty of her target, knows she can't just douse him down. So, she uses finesse. She gives a fine squirt to each of his feet, to his fingers, across his hands so they are stuck to his hips, etc. Rather than have her create more of the stuff, simply have her use it BETTER. A few wisely placed shots could entangle a giant pretty thoroughly. After all, the concepts of leverage STILL apply, even to a giant.

 

 

A good call but it still either disadvantages the entangle (requiring multiple hits) or advantages it - if not covered then the giant won't get any defence from the entangle.

 

Basically it is a mechanics v sfx dilemma. My personal take would be that the entangle just does not work or can only function against a limited body part, on the rationalle that sfx are part of the power, and if you can't entangle giants, but save no points, maybe you can get an advantage out of the power somewhere along the line for free. Thought it might make an interesting discussion though

[Manic Typist]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I don't think it would take multiple hits. Just give her the SFX of, in that situation, making multiple, smaller shots to get the job done.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I don't think it would take multiple hits. Just give her the SFX of' date=' in that situation, making multiple, smaller shots to get the job done.[/quote']

 

 

Assuming giants are rare I might allow this approach with a power trick roll. Hmmm...

[Utech]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I think this all depends on the story you're telling.

 

If Glue Girl has been squirting her opponents left and right and hardly facing a challenge, then surely Monstrous Man should be that challenge! Her standard tactics are just not good enough. She's got to think of a new way to handle the problem.

 

If there are plenty of other targets available and Glue Girl has some teammates this would be a great time for her to say, "Geez! There's no way my glue can stop Monstrous Man. He's all yours, Captain Alpine!"

 

If Glue Girl is working alone and really needs to take down Monstrous Man pretty quick because he is -- oh, I don't know -- about to step on a bus full of nuns, then I would rule that her mighty glue gun works just fine on the dastardly dude. If Glue Girl's player had the presence of mind to suggest that she was doing as Manic Typist suggested, then she should not only find her entangle working just great, I'd probably give her an experience point just for the creative thinking.

 

Of course there are infinite story possibilities so there are definitely going to be plenty of other possible results to the Glue Girl vs Monstrous Man scenario. And that's a good thing, yes?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I think this becomes a slippery slope. If Glue Girl's Glue Gun has less impact on a giant, shouldn't MosquitoMan's DrugDarts also suffer reduced effects? The Giant is so much larger that a vastly greater amoount of toxins should be required to have the same effect on him as a normal person. And with all that extra size, a bullet should have far less impact on the giant as well, being so much less likely to strike a vulnerable point.

 

I don't think the issue here is with the Entangle. It's with the Growth power. If the Giant wants to be nearly invulnerable based on his size, buy defensive powers linked to Growth (or straight powers if he's always that big). If he wants better immunity to an Entangle, buy extra STR, only to enhance casual STR for breaking entangles.

 

Glue Girl's gun likely should also fail underwater, as the glue dissipates, also a limitation.

 

And if Glue Girl wants her gun limited against huge targets, take a limitation (even if it's a -0). As the GM, if I wanted to restrict the gun against a giant, I'd feel some need to give the entangle a small SFX based advantage somewhere else.

[Utech]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I don't think the issue here is with the Entangle. It's with the Growth power. If the Giant wants to be nearly invulnerable based on his size' date=' buy defensive powers linked to Growth (or straight powers if he's always that big). If he wants better immunity to an Entangle, buy extra STR, only to enhance casual STR for breaking entangles.[/quote']

 

You raise a good point.

 

My first reaction is to say that you are completely right. And I would encourage players who wished to have a character with the Growth power to pick up defenses along the lines you've laid out.

 

My second reaction comes from thinking about building a character who is always big. That character usually ends up with a bunch of points in disadvantages for being so big. If a player with a character who is always big wants some special advantages for being so big (some resistance to toxins, many Entangle sfx, etc) and is willing to forego the usual disadvantage points for being big, I might rule that the advantages and disadvantages are a wash.

[CBikle]

Re: Entangling giants

 

This is a little tough.

 

It's always been implied in the growth (and shrinking) power descriptions that those powers naturally gain lots of free unspoken advantages and limits related to those powers and you could argue that Glue Girl's entangle being largely ineffective against a giant just happens to be one of those examples.

 

However, although I think it's ok to hand out minor advantages or limits to a power based on an SFX, I don't buy into the notion of SFX completely overriding (or being useless against) another power.

 

As a GM, I'd probably rule that the entangle works as it normally would, and I (and/or the pc) can "narrate" why relating to sfx.

[Seenar]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Hero does not have point costs for special effects. Clearly, some are better than others but the cost to the player is the same.

 

This is a weakness (not a big one) of hero.

 

I am in the: They paid the points, they get to use their power.

 

We had a giant attack on of our players, he at 1/2 dcv and we thought he was a goner. Suddenly he says.

 

"I Block".

 

Oh yeah! Block!

[CBikle]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Another thought:

 

If a normal-sized character gets entangled and then switches to a multiform that has 8 levels of growth always on, but doesn't have enough strength to break the entangle, what happens ? (nobody say it depends on SFX or "the story", I'm just interested in how people would handle this just based on mechanics).

[JamesG]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Another thought:

 

If a normal-sized character gets entangled and then switches to a multiform that has 8 levels of growth always on, but doesn't have enough strength to break the entangle, what happens ? (nobody say it depends on SFX or "the story", I'm just interested in how people would handle this just based on mechanics).

 

I'd have them use their Str PLUS Growth Momentum damage to break the Entangle. If that wasn't enough to break it, what happens next depends on the spec effects of the ENT.

 

If it is a "stretchy" ENT, I'd rule the ENT just stretched with the char. They now are much bigger, but still entangled.

 

If it is a "rigid" ENT, I'd apply the damage they rolled vs the ENT to the character (vs PD) and rule the char was "forced" back to their normal sized form since they were prevented from growing by the ENT.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Another thought:

 

If a normal-sized character gets entangled and then switches to a multiform that has 8 levels of growth always on, but doesn't have enough strength to break the entangle, what happens ? (nobody say it depends on SFX or "the story", I'm just interested in how people would handle this just based on mechanics).

 

When you say he doesn't have enough STR to break I assume you mean something like a 20 STR character with 4 levels of Growth (+20 STR) hit with a 8 Defense 6 Body Entangle?

 

In that situation I would probably allow growth momentum to be added as additional bonus damage. Maybe even allow the character to grow then go back to normal back and forth several times the same way you rock a car to get out of muddy/sandy conditions.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I think this becomes a slippery slope. If Glue Girl's Glue Gun has less impact on a giant, shouldn't MosquitoMan's DrugDarts also suffer reduced effects? The Giant is so much larger that a vastly greater amoount of toxins should be required to have the same effect on him as a normal person. And with all that extra size, a bullet should have far less impact on the giant as well, being so much less likely to strike a vulnerable point.

 

I don't think the issue here is with the Entangle. It's with the Growth power. If the Giant wants to be nearly invulnerable based on his size, buy defensive powers linked to Growth (or straight powers if he's always that big). If he wants better immunity to an Entangle, buy extra STR, only to enhance casual STR for breaking entangles.

 

I disagree. Built into Growth in additional STUN and BODY and of course, STR. There is your reduced effect against regular attacks. For drugs, if it's something that weakens the target (through STUN or STR loss) you have it as well. If it's anything else, not to worry. If the target is a size changer, then there is no reason why other aspects of health would be affected. If a permenantly large target, you aren't supposed to use Growth to simulate it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Another thought:

 

If a normal-sized character gets entangled and then switches to a multiform that has 8 levels of growth always on, but doesn't have enough strength to break the entangle, what happens ? (nobody say it depends on SFX or "the story", I'm just interested in how people would handle this just based on mechanics).

 

I can't and won't. Mechanics alone to not run this game and never can.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangling giants

 

I disagree. Built into Growth in additional STUN and BODY and of course' date=' STR.[/quote']

 

The extra STR also weakens the effect of an Entangle, making it easier to break out, both with casual STR and regular actions. In other words, there is no reason for Entangle to be weakened against a giant any more than any other attack is.

 

To clarify, I'm not arguing that large characters (whether they purchased Growth or are permanently large) should be given special resistance to any attack type. You want the extra resistance, buy the powers to simulate it.

 

If someone wants to apply the SFX of being SuperSized to reduce the impact of entangles, however, I don't think it should stop at entangles. There are many other attack types which should be reduced in effectiveness by the same logic. To single out Entangle alone is, to me, even less "logical" than simply having attacks work normally (albeit against the target's enhanced statistics).

[Blue]

Re: Entangling giants

 

Without reading the other responses (So I may be repeating someone else):

 

I'd say if Casual STR is enough to ignore the entangle then I'd let an oversized character ignore it the way they would shrug off anything else.

 

Otherwise I'd count it as a normal entangle, otherwise you're penalizing someone with entangle for paying extra for AOE. If it wasn't AOE, and just "single target", then you'd hold the guy, so why would it be less so for an AOE? He'd certaily be the only one in that area, though.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Entangling giants

 

The extra STR also weakens the effect of an Entangle, making it easier to break out, both with casual STR and regular actions. In other words, there is no reason for Entangle to be weakened against a giant any more than any other attack is.

 

To clarify, I'm not arguing that large characters (whether they purchased Growth or are permanently large) should be given special resistance to any attack type. You want the extra resistance, buy the powers to simulate it.

 

If someone wants to apply the SFX of being SuperSized to reduce the impact of entangles, however, I don't think it should stop at entangles. There are many other attack types which should be reduced in effectiveness by the same logic. To single out Entangle alone is, to me, even less "logical" than simply having attacks work normally (albeit against the target's enhanced statistics).

Agreed. The extra Str from Growth (or the extra Str that will be a part of most sane large-character packages), plus possible Growth Momentum Damage if you like, should be sufficient, "defense," against Entangles in the normal case.

 

As I've said, though, I do add a little more realism in most heroic games, where I think it is more warrented. YMMV.