OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Guys, guys, please. I didn't mean to start a flame war with my question about the boxer as an example of PD and damage. Damn, I don't need to get banned from this board too.

 

 

Now, as to what I've gleaned from my example and the replies to it, I see it as like this:

 

 

 

In Hero, a trained, conditioned boxer has advantages that joe average doesn't have, so he can resist being knocked out or worn down by blows and pummeling that would put joe average down. I gather there are several ways to reflect this in hero (Did someone just snicker?) and the most realistic one, and the one I'm thinking of basically, is physical training and toughness to reflect the years a pro boxer spends taking hits and learning to stand up to it.

 

 

How this would be relfected in hero I, as a newbie, have no idea except that it might just be a higher PD score due to training, or so I gather.

 

 

So, in the example, all that would not do him a damn bit of good if shot by a 9mm against the lethal damage of having the bullet tear apart his tissues, severe arteries, rupture organs, etc, but it might help him remain conscious whereas a normal person would take the same damage and be more likely to immediately lose consciousness.

 

Ok, so the 9mm does killing damage, and can also cause stun even if the person survives due to shock and cause a survivor to lose consciousness, so me might bleed to death while unconscious whereas the boxer, being tougher in regards to physical punishment, might take the same lethal damage but not lose consciousness due to the stun effect.

 

 

Correct?

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Well, I was playing fast and lose with the analogy. They are different systems, drawing exact comparisons is kinda tough. The point is that there are several ways to model damage.

 

I haven't played GURPS since 3e. What are those new damage types?

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

Well, the good news is bullets no longer do crushing damage, they do piercing damage, Pi for short. It comes in several types ranging from pi-(very small calibur guns) to pi, pi+ (Big guns) and pi++ (Guns so big the damamge roll is virtually pointless.)

 

Pi- is 1/2 damage to tissue, pi+ is 1.5 x damage to tissue and pi++ is 2x damage to tissue all due to the sizes of the wound channels. You can get hollowpoijt bullets that raise damage but add an armor multiplier or AP bullets that do the opposite.

[Robyn]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Now' date=' as to what I've gleaned from my example and the replies to it, I see it as like this:[/quote']

 

I think you've got it.

 

:forbears the usual self-disparaging comments about fumbling a Methematics rolls:

[Zeropoint]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Your boxer has a number of advantages on Joe Average. Some of them are there in the characteristics block.

 

First, he works out, so he's stronger than average. His elevated STR will give him a higher PD at no additional charge. That'll help him withstand blunt trauma.

 

Second, he's probably healthier than the average man. That would be reflected in a higher CON score. He'll be less likely to be Stunned, and he'll be able to take more Stun before being knocked out.

 

If he's trained himself to keep going despite being injured, that would be good justification for a higher BODY, which will increase both the amount of damage it takes to kill him and the amount of pain it takes to knock him out.

 

You can also buy up your PD and Stun separately, for characters who are especially good at taking a beating and staying on their feet.

 

You've also got Skills to look at--an accomplished boxer almost certainly knows some Martial Arts Maneuvers. Martial Block makes you better at deflecting blows, Martial Dodge gives you a good chance of getting out of the way, and Martial Strike and Defensive Strike both make you harder to hit while you're throwing a punch.

 

After that, we start getting into the "cinematic" level, and looking at Powers. Damage Reduction might be good--maybe this guy can take a LOT of pain before he blacks out. You could even justify a few points of the Armor power, with the special effect of "he takes the damage, but it doesn't really seem to matter". The Russian from the recent Punisher movie seemed to have some of this, based on when Frank stabbed him with the knife and he didn't really seem to mind.

 

I can't really think of anything else at the moment; it's late.

 

Zeropoint

[David Johnston]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

matter". The Russian from the recent Punisher movie seemed to have some of this, based on when Frank stabbed him with the knife and he didn't really seem to mind.

 

Zeropoint

 

Of course Frank could have just rolled poorly for Body damage

[gojira]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

In Hero, a trained, conditioned boxer has advantages that joe average doesn't have, so he can resist being knocked out or worn down by blows and pummeling that would put joe average down. I gather there are several ways to reflect this in hero (Did someone just snicker?) and the most realistic one, and the one I'm thinking of basically, is physical training and toughness to reflect the years a pro boxer spends taking hits and learning to stand up to it.

 

 

How this would be relfected in hero I, as a newbie, have no idea except that it might just be a higher PD score due to training, or so I gather.

 

PD is how I would do it. STR (which does make you tougher), CON (which helps avoid knock-out and stunning), BODY (just being bigger) and STUN (which can be raised) would be appropriate too.

 

So, in the example, all that would not do him a damn bit of good if shot by a 9mm against the lethal damage of having the bullet tear apart his tissues, severe arteries, rupture organs, etc, but it might help him remain conscious whereas a normal person would take the same damage and be more likely to immediately lose consciousness.

 

Almost. Unless they changed this recently, PD doesn't help with bullets or knives or other killing damage, so no help with the shock (stun) there. UNLESS you have armour, or some form of resistant defense. THEN PD does help with the stun part of the damage.

 

It's an on/off switch. Even 1 point of RD will allow ALL of your PD to be used to resist stun.

 

PD always works against "normal" damage -- fists, blunt sticks, etc.

 

Ok, so the 9mm does killing damage, and can also cause stun even if the person survives due to shock and cause a survivor to lose consciousness, so me might bleed to death while unconscious whereas the boxer, being tougher in regards to physical punishment, might take the same lethal damage but not lose consciousness due to the stun effect.

 

 

Correct?

 

Again, only if the boxer has some kind of armour. Two guys, both with armour, one with 2 PD and one with 10 PD, the one with 10 PD will have a better chance of staying "up" if shot. But only if he has some sort of armour.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Ok, so it takes some form of armor to make your PD work against stun damage done by lethal damage.

 

 

 

Now, if the boxer's resistance to stun was based on physical training and conditioning, resulting in a higher BOD, would that effect his chance of being stunned by lethal damage?

 

 

 

PS, sory to ask so mamny questions, just nothing's going on tonight, so rather than rot in front of the brain softener I hang out on the net.

[Robyn]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Ok' date=' so it takes some form of armor to make your PD work against stun damage done by lethal damage.[/quote']

 

I think what gojira is saying is that a single point of Armor is enough to distribute the shock of an impact across your entire body (Armor is an outside layer, PD is your natural layer, Resistant PD is Steelskin).

 

Now' date=' if the boxer's resistance to stun was based on physical training and conditioning, resulting in a higher BOD, would that effect his chance of being stunned by lethal damage?[/quote']

 

The nice thing about HERO is that it doesn't have twenty different powers for every effect. It just cares about the underlying game effect, and you can put whatever "SFX" (or "Special Effects") on that power to explain why you have it.

 

The not-so-nice thing about HERO is that it doesn't have twenty different powers for every effect. If you want to create an effect that is slightly different in the game, the SFX will not point you to the proper combination of factors, you have to pick your own levels of extra Body, Stun, PD, etcetera, and it is entirely possible that your "Combat Reflexes" will end being stronger than another character's "Toughened Body" but weaker than a third character's "Toughened Body". In other words, different people can take the same SFX on their powers, but might have vastly different levels of strength, and in some cases, even choose entirely different powers to reflect the Special Effect.

 

And, yes, I fumbled my Spelling roll too.

[David Johnston]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

 

Now, if the boxer's resistance to stun was based on physical training and conditioning, resulting in a higher BOD, would that effect his chance of being stunned by lethal damage?

 

 

No more than another source of PD.

[Dust Raven]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Ok, so it takes some form of armor to make your PD work against stun damage done by lethal damage.

 

 

 

Now, if the boxer's resistance to stun was based on physical training and conditioning, resulting in a higher BOD, would that effect his chance of being stunned by lethal damage?

If you are referring to the BODY Characteristic, then no. All it would do is make him harder to kill, he'd pass out from the pain and shock (the STUN damage) just as easily as anyone else with his PD and STUN.

 

 

PS, sory to ask so mamny questions, just nothing's going on tonight, so rather than rot in front of the brain softener I hang out on the net.

Don't worry about asking questions... it gives all of us something to do other than rotting in front of the brain softener too.

[Lucius]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

If you are referring to the BODY Characteristic, then no. All it would do is make him harder to kill, he'd pass out from the pain and shock (the STUN damage) just as easily as anyone else with his PD and STUN.

.

 

Actually, each pt of BOD also adds a pt of STUN. But since STUN is usually inflicted at a rate of about 3 times BOD, that doesn't help much.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Duplicating Palindromedary

[Thia Halmades]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Don't apologize for asking questions. I drove these cats nuts when I first got here. Shocking how I fit in these days. Secondly, you came nowhere close to starting a flame war, we were all just tired and made a poor math move. No worries.

 

You seem to have the gist of it. Do you have a copy of the book yet?

[ghost-angel]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Let's clarify all whole buncha stuff... 'cuz I almost got lost in that mess.

 

Start with two types of Damage: Normal and Killing.

Start with two types of Normal Defense: Physical and Energy.

Start with two types of Killing Defense (also called Resistant Defense): Physical and Energy.

 

Fists: Normal Damge; Stopped by: Normal Physical Def (PD)

9mm: Killing Damage; Stopped by: Resistant Physical Def (rPD)

 

All Damage does STUN and BODY (unless it has Limitations that state otherwise). STUN knocks you out, BODY kills you.

 

If you have rPD, you may use your PD to help stop the STUN of a Killing Attack. If you have no rPD than all STUN and BODY Damage from a Killing Attack effects you.

rPD also works against the STUN and BODY of a Normal Attack - stacking with any PD you have.

 

that all makes some sense?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

*raises hand*

 

I'm lost.

[Bazza]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

that all makes some sense?

yes. what is Lesson 2. What other forms of attacks defences are there? I know of ALDV (?) NND, hardened, indirects, (more mentioned in this thread). Can you go through those, please.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

And he says I'M the smartass.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

yes. what is Lesson 2. What other forms of attacks defences are there? I know of ALDV (?) NND' date=' hardened, indirects, (more mentioned in this thread). Can you go through those, please. [/quote']

Offensive Forms:

Indirect, Non Normal Defense (NND), Attack Versus Limited Defense (AVLD), Based On Ego Combat Value (BOECV), Mental Attacks, Adjustment Attacks, Penetrating, Armor Piercing,

 

Defensive Forms:

Flash Defense (vs a Sense), Mental Defense (MD), Power Defense (PwD), Hardened.

 

Breakdown:

Mental Attacks, BOECV vs Mental Defense

Adjustment Attacks (Powers) vs Power Defense

Penetrating, Armor Piercing vs Hardened (both are modifiers)

Indirect does not alter the DEF of an Attack, just it's point of origin

NND vs Something it doesn't normally go against (such as being able to use Life Support: Immunity instead of an actual DEF Power).

AVLD switches to another form of DEF Power, or specific type of DEF (such as Force Fields, regardless if which Power they're built with).

[Bazza]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Offensive Forms:

Indirect, Non Normal Defense (NND), Attack Versus Limited Defense (AVLD), Based On Ego Combat Value (BOECV), Mental Attacks, Adjustment Attacks, Penetrating, Armor Piercing,

 

Defensive Forms:

Flash Defense (vs a Sense), Mental Defense (MD), Power Defense (PwD), Hardened.

 

Breakdown:

Mental Attacks, BOECV vs Mental Defense

Adjustment Attacks (Powers) vs Power Defense

Penetrating, Armor Piercing vs Hardened (both are modifiers)

Indirect does not alter the DEF of an Attack, just it's point of origin

NND vs Something it doesn't normally go against (such as being able to use Life Support: Immunity instead of an actual DEF Power).

AVLD switches to another form of DEF Power, or specific type of DEF (such as Force Fields, regardless if which Power they're built with).

I know most of those, I thought it would be beneficial for other beginners reading this thread.

 

Thanks.

[Robyn]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

But since STUN is usually inflicted at a rate of about 3 times BOD' date=' that doesn't help much.[/quote']

 

To clarify Lucius' answer, which implies that (Body x3 = Stun) "usually", this is actually an "average"; for normal attacks, each 1d6 has 6 possible results:

 

1 - doing 0 Body and 1 Stun

2 - doing 1 Body and 2 Stun

3 - doing 1 Body and 3 Stun

4 - doing 1 Body and 4 Stun

5 - doing 1 Body and 5 Stun

6 - doing 2 Body and 6 Stun

 

The killing attacks will do the Body rolled on the dice; a second d6 is then rolled for the total of the killing attack, and this total is multiplied by (dieroll minus 1, minimum 1) to calculate the Stun.

 

So, over the long run or with a lot of dice, your attacks will be doing 3.5 or 3 points of Stun per point of Body, and between both types of attack, this approaches closer to 3.25, or just 3.

 

Duplicating Palindromedary

 

Does this mean we'll get extra commentary at the end?

 

__________________

Robyn notices that the 1 on normal attacks contradicts ghost-angel's

"All Damage does STUN and BODY (unless it has Limitations that state otherwise)."

[gojira]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

I think what gojira is saying is that a single point of Armor is enough to distribute the shock of an impact across your entire body (Armor is an outside layer' date=' PD is your natural layer, Resistant PD is Steelskin).[/quote']

 

Actually what I'm saying is that the rules, the mechanics of the Hero System, state that PD doesn't count unless you have some form of resistant defense. Ghost-Angel's post following your's is 100% correct.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Don't apologize for asking questions. I drove these cats nuts when I first got here. Shocking how I fit in these days. Secondly, you came nowhere close to starting a flame war, we were all just tired and made a poor math move. No worries.

 

You seem to have the gist of it. Do you have a copy of the book yet?

 

Not yet, maybe soon if something breaks right. It'll be a 5e book, not the revision if I get it.

 

I've been trying to read thru robot wariors tho.

[Robyn]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Actually what I'm saying is that the rules' date=' the mechanics of the Hero System, state that PD doesn't count unless you have some form of resistant defense. Ghost-Angel's post following your's is 100% correct.[/quote']

 

So, then, if I have 1 point of resistant Physical Defense, and 15 points of normal Physical Defense, and someone hits me with a Killing Attack doing 20 points of Body, will I take only 4 Body?

[Trebuchet]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

So' date=' then, if I have 1 point of resistant Physical Defense, and 15 points of normal Physical Defense, and someone hits me with a Killing Attack doing 20 points of Body, will I take only 4 Body?[/quote']No, you'll take 19 BODY. You will however be able to apply all 16 points of PD (both Resistant and non-resistant) against the Stun generated by the Killing Attack.

[gojira]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

Hmm, maybe I wasn't explaining too well.

 

If you have 15 points of PD, and you take a 6 Body, 20 Stun killing attack, you take 6 Body and 20 Stun.

 

If you have 15 points of PD and one point of rPD, and you take a 6 Body 20 Stun killing attack, you take 5 Body and 4 Stun.

 

If you have 15 points of PD, and you take a 6 Body 20 Stun regular attack, you take no Body and 5 Stun.

 

That's what I meant. Sorry for any confuzzlement I may have caused.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OK, now I'm beginning to understand the stats a bit...

 

So' date=' then, if I have 1 point of resistant Physical Defense, and 15 points of normal Physical Defense, and someone hits me with a Killing Attack doing 20 points of Body, will I take only 4 Body?[/quote']

No. breaks down like this:

 

PD: 15, rPD: 1

Incoming Normal Attack you have:

BODY: 16 DEF, STUN: 16 DEF

Incoming Killing Attack you have:

BODY: 1 DEF, STUN: 16 DEF (in your example you take 19 BODY)

 

Non-Resistant PD may be added to Resistant PD to Defend against the STUN (only) of a Killing Attack, or the BODY and STUN of a Normal Attack.

 

does that make sense?