Stunt with Option to Buy

[BeZurKur]

I've long felt that Hero was not suited for high-powered supers. The genre is too free form and Hero too detailed/balanced oriented. However, I recently picked up the 3rd issue of Digital Hero and there was an article on not using point caps. It suggested building the character as you envision him and then doing away with experience to bulid on that vision. Basically the character is done; after-all, Thor does not get better with each issue of the Avengers.

 

This got me thinking. Perhaps Hero can do it, but I'm not convinced on the zero improvement. One of the ways supers improve in comics is through power-stunts. Hero's stance on stunts is that you can do it with the Power skill, but if you plan on doing it again, you must pay for it. That's still too constricting, IMO.

 

How does this sound:

 

You may perform a stunt after paying 1/5 the real cost out of experience earned. This is the cost outside of any power framework. You are then allowed to make a general 11- roll with -1 per 10 active points of the power. You may improve the odds with basic skill modifiers and by "burning" extra XP: +1 per 2xp. Whether you make the roll or not, the 1/5 goes toward buying the power, so after 5 tries, you basically purchased it. Any XP used to buy bonuses, however, is lost forever. Once the power is purchased it is put into whatever appropriate framework, if any. No more characters earning powers per scenario because of a Multi. The point boon came at character creation and that's it.

 

I like how this sounds in theory and thought I'd share. There are, however, some problems. There is no way to stunt up a characteristic, and there clearly have been examples of heroes getting stronger or faster. Also, in higher point games, where stunts should be more common, the 1/5 real cost entry fee, might make it prohibitive. So although it should be more common according to the genre, the mechanic makes it less so. I'd appreciate any constructive criticism and workarounds the above problems.

 

BZK

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

already in the system:

 

 

Power Skill

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Explanations and Examples of how to use the Power Skill can be found in the following locations:

 

5ER p67

SideKick p28

Champions p63

The Mystic World p92

USPD1 p267 [This reference contains a full section to describe exactly what you have in mind in your post]

Dark Champions p77

Fantasy Hero p92

Valdorian Age p101

Ninja Hero p27

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Explanations and Examples of how to use the Power Skill can be found in the following locations:

 

5ER p67

SideKick p28

Champions p63

The Mystic World p92

USPD1 p267 [This reference contains a full section to describe exactly what you have in mind in your post]

Dark Champions p77

Fantasy Hero p92

Valdorian Age p101

Ninja Hero p27

 

Let's hope this all gets consolidated in TUS!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Let's hope this all gets consolidated in TUS!

Most of them are pretty much the same thing - the stuff in 5ER, wth some genre specific refrences and uses.

 

I'm going to assume that TUS not only repeats the extensive writeup in USPD1, but the genre elements in the other books as well. With luck we'll get even more information on uses of the Power Skill.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Most of them are pretty much the same thing - the stuff in 5ER' date=' wth some genre specific refrences and uses.[/quote']

 

Exactly, but the 5ER discourages allowing the Power skill for repeated uses of the power. The above design is to allow to repeatedly use it while purchasing it along the way. Also, it will discourage casual use of the Power skill because there is an inherent cost in XP. You mention an extensive description in the USPD1; unfortunately, I don't own that one. Does that version allow for repeeated use while buying your way into the power? If so, I'm certainly intrigued on how they suggest it. Thanks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Exactly' date=' but the 5ER discourages allowing the Power skill for repeated uses of the power. The above design is to allow to repeatedly use it while purchasing it along the way. Also, it will discourage casual use of the Power skill because there is an inherent cost in XP. You mention an extensive description in the USPD1; unfortunately, I don't own that one. Does that version allow for repeeated use while buying your way into the power? If so, I'm certainly intrigued on how they suggest it. Thanks.[/quote']

I'm not near my books, but I believe it gives guidelines of 3 Uses before that specific use of the Power should be purchased with XP.

 

It also has suggestions for variations on that theme. As always with Hero - one can feel free to modify the system as one sees fit. But the basic idea of what you describe is accounted for in the current incarnation of the system.

 

It also uses something similar regarding Active Points vs Roll Modifiers with the Power Skill as a benchmark. Basically everyone has the Power: Modify Power Usage, RSR: Power Skill for free. Exact useage is up to the GM.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Hi BeZurKur: Hate to get off topic BUT...

 

Have you read Truth and Justice?

 

Your stunt mechanic is something that is pretty fundamental in that system.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

I use the Power Skill to let characters spend XP in mid-game on new powers, myself (and encourage players to keep XP floating around for just such situations). So, if Freeze Man abruptly realizes he needs a Wall of Ice, but doesn't have such a Multipower slot, he can make a Power Skill check (-1 for each 10 points in the power, measured after Advantages and Limitations, but BEFORE frameworking), he can spend the XP and acquire the power.

 

So, in this case, let's say the basic power is Entangle, and it's a 60pt MP. So, he can go for a 6d6 Entangle, Only To Form Barriers to make a roll at -3. He can put more limitations on it to reduce both the XP expenditure required and the penalty to the Power Skill.

 

I'm still debating the idea of allowing 'XP debt', where you could spend XP you don't yet have to make a Stunt, but you couldn't do it again until you had repaid your debt (and it wouldn't be optional; all XP you gained would go to the buyoff). Probably only in truly 'critical' situations.

 

Of course, if I were *really* doing a high-level supers game, with more experienced players, I'd just have everybody go VPP instead of Multipower, so you could gimmick up whatever powers you want within the appropriate special effect; but without experienced players who are intimately familiar with the system, that's just a disaster in the making.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Actually, I think this is something that you might see as a problem, but in play is only an issue if you are not using Frameworks for some reason.

 

In reality stunts are almost always naturally handled by either power design (flexible Powers that are usable in many ways), or by inclusion in a framework, or both.

 

Further, most high point supers characters have at least one Power Framework making it even easier.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Which raises another point -- the HERO System is best known for running powerful supers games, so if you look at it and think "this isnt any good for powerful supers games" you are faced with this dilemna:

 

Either

 

A) All the people that are experienced with the material to a greater degree than you and have the general consensus that it is good for X are wrong.

 

OR

 

You're missing something.

 

It's amazing how many people, when faced with that sort of situation, settle on option A.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

So' date=' in this case, let's say the basic power is Entangle, and it's a 60pt MP. So, he can go for a 6d6 Entangle, Only To Form Barriers to make a roll at -3. He can put more limitations on it to reduce both the XP expenditure required and the penalty to the Power Skill.[/quote']

 

I suspect many players would apply some further limitations (maybe Extra END, Concentrate, etc.) to make the roll easier, and spend the extra xp later to buy off some of those extra limitations. Seems OK to me, as this reflects the character, who has now determined he can do this, practicing to get more proficient with this new application of his existing abilities.

 

I'm still debating the idea of allowing 'XP debt'' date=' where you could spend XP you don't yet have to make a Stunt, but you couldn't do it again until you had repaid your debt (and it wouldn't be optional; all XP you gained would go to the buyoff). Probably only in truly 'critical' situations.[/quote']

 

You could use a variant of the "pushing" rules in this regard. Some other possibilities off the cuff:

 

- it increases the penalty to the roll

 

- it increases the xp cost (ie if you have the XP available, it has its normal cost, but pre-accessing your xp means paying double)

 

- you pay "interest" on the borrowed xp (maybe the first of every 5 or 10 xp earned goes to an interest cost until the power is paid in full). If you use that, you can probably eliminate the requirement to devote all xp to the debt - if you want to keep paying the interest charge, go ahead!

 

- you must place added limitations on the power (such as Activation, Extra END, etc.) after that first critical use to reduce the power cost to the xp you have (minimum 1 point even if you have no xp) to spend, and can only buy those limitations off by spending xp.

 

- any shortfall is made up by 1d6 Unluck per X net debt, which declines only as your xp debt is repaid. I'd set X somewhat less than the usual 5 point value.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

I allow XP debt all the time; I've allowed players to go as far as 25 points in debt on numerous occassions.

 

Character concept and needs of the story trump accounting. We're gamers, not actuaries.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

I allow XP debt all the time; I've allowed players to go as far as 25 points in debt on numerous occassions.

 

Character concept and needs of the story trump accounting. We're gamers, not actuaries.

I'm with you on that one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

I allow XP debt all the time; I've allowed players to go as far as 25 points in debt on numerous occassions.

 

Character concept and needs of the story trump accounting. We're gamers, not actuaries.

 

I'm with you too. I've allowed XP debt many times, though I discourage it. But if the situation calls for it, then the situation/game/story/concept trumpts the acounting in every case.

[Robyn]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Which raises another point -- the HERO System is best known for running powerful supers games, so if you look at it and think "this isnt any good for powerful supers games" you are faced with this dilemna:

 

Either

 

A) All the people that are experienced with the material to a greater degree than you and have the general consensus that it is good for X are wrong.

 

OR

 

You're missing something.

 

It's amazing how many people, when faced with that sort of situation, settle on option A.

 

It seems like a false dilemma to me. The mechanics require players who can make "proper" use of them (which resembles a circular argument, since "proper" is defined by "whatever is needed to have the mechanic achieve its intended purpose), if the rules wouldn't achieve the proper result when combined with your players then the wisest course is:

 

C) It worked for almost everyone else, it won't work for you, so you'd best find another solution instead of stubbornly keep trying to force everything to work out anyway.

 

The existing rules aren't Inherently good, they just have a very high Activation Roll.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

How does this sound:

 

I don't like the idea of paying a reduced cost for powers for no reason, and as far as I'm converned, saying something is a "power stunt" is pretty much no reason. While I'm for XP debt, a number of power stunts can rack up quite a debt over a short time, or else prohibit a character from performing new stunts until the debt is paid. There is another alternative, however, which would completely solve the issue of paying for powers the player wishes to use repeatedly: Multipowers.

 

Each character could be required (or just encouraged) to buy a Multipower at character creation they can use for power stunts they want to buy with XP during play. This way, the player has an idea of how many active points any given power stunt should have at max (when used with the Power Skill), and if they like it enough to use it more, they can just buy the power as a slot in the Multipower.

 

The original Multipower could just be derrived from the character's most expensive power not already in a framework, or if the character would already have a Multipower, power stunts could just be added in there (assuming the Multipower has no special Limitations on it).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

The existing rules aren't Inherently good, they just have a very high Activation Roll.

 

I can't really comment on anything said by you or Killer Shrike, but I really like this statement. Very profound in a geeky sort of way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

I don't like the idea of paying a reduced cost for powers for no reason' date=' and as far as I'm converned, saying something is a "power stunt" is pretty much no reason. While I'm for XP debt, a number of power stunts can rack up quite a debt over a short time, or else prohibit a character from performing new stunts until the debt is paid. There is another alternative, however, which would completely solve the issue of paying for powers the player wishes to use repeatedly: Multipowers.[/quote']

I would go so far as to say if a character is constantly using Power Stunts to do what they want in game they haven't built their character the way they really want them.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

It seems like a false dilemma to me. The mechanics require players who can make "proper" use of them (which resembles a circular argument, since "proper" is defined by "whatever is needed to have the mechanic achieve its intended purpose), if the rules wouldn't achieve the proper result when combined with your players then the wisest course is:

You really do seem to have a bad habit of reading things into statements that are not actually written, intended, or implied.

 

I didnt say any thing even vaguely like "The mechanics require players who can make "proper" use of them".

 

If you absolutely must respond to my posts at least try to focus on what is stated and to not attribute false statements to me, please.

[Robyn]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

You really do seem to have a bad habit of reading things into statements that are not actually written, intended, or implied.

 

I didnt say any thing even vaguely like "The mechanics require players who can make "proper" use of them".

 

If you absolutely must respond to my posts at least try to focus on what is stated and to not attribute false statements to me, please.

 

I don't see where I attributed that to you. I don't see where that term would need to be yours, for me to identify it as "resembling a circular argument". I was the one who introduced the idea of players using a mechanic "properly", and I was the one who acknowledged it as being weak in that regard.

 

I could have left the error in and said nothing, but then I would have been deliberately using a term that I knew to be flawed, which at best delays and distracts from further constructive discussion when someone else points it out, at worst may lead to overvaluing the phrase if people miss that weakness, and in between invites criticism since I would appear to have either missed an obvious error or deliberately omitted it to bolster my own statements.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Then don't quote him. I certainly took it as to attributing that concept to KS.

[Robyn]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Then don't quote him. I certainly took it as to attributing that concept to KS.

 

I quoted him to indicate the relevancy of my own reply (there are a lot of other posts in this thread). I then used syntax to indicate what was a reply and what was a statement. If it helps any, try reading my posts without the paranthetical asides first (skip right past them), then check back as desired for greater detail.

 

To phrase that post another way, the "if you think HERO isn't any good for running supers games, you either failed your INT roll or you're calling your betters idiots" is a false dilemma, because the rules can only "work" in the context of players who use them; if your players are having problems with the rules, a third possibility is that you've seen when HERO is good for supers games, and you know that your group isn't one of those cases (yet).

[BeZurKur]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

Wow, I certainly did not intend for anyone to get defensive about their game system of choice. Killer Shrike, I offered a solution for what I saw a problem in the game mirroring a defining element for me in the high-powered genre.

 

I don't refute your point B; I may very well be missing something. That's why I brought it up here. If I am, I'd expect it is common courtesy to have it pointed out. Ghost-Angel tells me there is a similiar mechanic that already exist. I will look into it.

 

However, I don't think power-frameworks are the way to go. Stunts are not defining powers; there are occasional moments of oppurtunity or extreme need that demand creative use of a power. An existing slot encourgaes use of the power whenever it simply suits him. Those are two different situations. Now, this assumes that we agree what a stunt is. If your interpretation is radically different, then we have a case where my needs don't coincide with yours, and Robyn's C choice is absolutely valid. And really, that's okay: I recognize people's needs are different. That doesn't make them wrong. I embrace differences; it keeps us from stagnating.

 

Your point A, however, is flawed. There are also many experienced people who no longer believe Hero is the system of choice. You won't find many of them here, although if you are interested, drop by other message boards. I haven't run any poll, so I can't give you exact figures, but I know they're out there. What I am pretty certain of is that referring to an authority, or even a group of authorities, without reason behind it, is considered weak grounds for a premise.

 

To phrase that post another way' date=' the "if you think HERO isn't any good for running supers games, you either failed your INT roll or you're calling your betters idiots" [/quote']

Yeah, that's a good paraphrase of the tone on KS's Aristotelian logic post.

 

Crosshair Collie, going by real cost sounds like a good way to bring the skill roll into manageable numbers. I'm certainly going to try that out as I playtest this for my group. I don't like the VPP cause of my above arguement regarding power-frameworks. The same goes for the multi reserved for stunts. Once you buy the power, it is yours to use at your whim. I'd also rather not make any changes to existing characters.

 

John, no I haven't read it, but I have seen it at RPGnow. That was around release time. Looking at it now, I see it is being well-received. For $13, I'll pick it up as a PDF. Thanks for the heads-up.

[cutsleeve]

Re: Stunt with Option to Buy

 

I remember Marvel superheroes had power stunt mechanics they where called feats. You tried to use a power in anew way and if sucessfull you did it if not you sputter out. After a few times doing it successfully you get it permanently. Overall a nice system but it doesnt fit Hero system at all.

 

The better way of handling this is buying a decent sized VPP and calling it a stunt pool. You attach a power skill roll to it and whalla you have the ability to perform feats that are part of your character. in a High point setting this pool wouldnt even be an issue. I would build pre-crisis superman with one to simulate his super intelegence and super resourcefullness.

 

XP debt is also an idea i liked it allows you to handle things like peoples disadvantages in a real way rather then planning out when they want to deal with them and pay them off.