Knowledge Skills in the Future

[Labrat]

OK, I'm going to risk sounding like an old fart here (I'm close to actually being one).

 

While doing a write-up for a scientist-type for a SH NPC I got to thinking about how KS's (SS, AK, etc) will be in the 'future'. For example, I work with a lot of high-precision instrumentation and I had to understand them from the ground up when I was cutting my teeth in the field. As time goes by I notice that less and less of the new generation of scientists actually KNOW what instrumentation does (in terms of the guts, i.e. how it works and why). They just have to interface with the attached software and off they go. This takes nothing away from the end result, but knowing how to 'get there' helps one if there is trouble-shooting to do.

 

In this age there seems to be a detraction from 'nuts and bolts' thinking. Whereas my generation had to know how to work a library system in and out to do efficient research, the new generation has to know how to efficiently surf the web for the same. It's not 'easier' to do the latter, especially since there is so much more data in this information age, it's just that more is done 'for us' so that we can cut to the chase when doing a search.

 

In game terms, how does this affect Knowledge Skills? Would one need as strong of a KS: Art History when a KS: Art History Websites would work more efficiently? I'm talking about casual knowledge, of course. If 'Art History' is your occupation or if it's your hobby, you'll naturally retain a lot of the information. But say, for example, a character has KS: Art History as a FAM and really good web-surfing skills. Would he/she not be handicapped compared to someone with a mediocre KS: Art History who would rather try to recollect the information on thier own?

 

I'm sure that portable computers in the near-future will continue in this shifting trend of 'hard-fact learning' vs. 'net-surfing'. It's just easier to look it up. I've found myself lapse into this kind of thinking every so often. Facts that I had memorized accurately now get a shrug if I have to recall them. Now I hit a link in my 'Favorites' folder and, at the very best, I can verify my recollection and at the very least use it as a crutch to facilitate my mental laziness.

 

Are 'focused' Knowledge Skills going to be as strong as, say, a 13- in the Space Hero age? Or will the 'points' be shifted into a 'Research' skill as mentioned in the Ultimate Skill thread? (I hope this hasn't been addressed there... if so just point the way and I'll apologize for my redundancy).

[tancred]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Interesting thoughts, Labrat. I haven't looked at the Ultimate Skills threads in detail, so I don't know if this is addressed there or not.

 

But your comments fit quite well with my own experience. Back when I worked at Microsoft, one of the concepts drummed into us was that you don't have to memorize everything to be an expert, you just have to know how to find the information you need.

 

This has become even more true now that I've moved into programming. I actually answered several questions during the interview for my current job by stating that the information asked was something that I didn't remember off the top of my head, but could find in Help.

 

So I tend to agree with you that specific, detailed knowledge of specific topics seems to be being replaced (or at least supplemented) by the ability to acquire information as needed.

[pinecone]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

I agree that this is a valid concept, as the "size" of the knowlage continues to grow, actually "knowing a feild becomes functionally impossable...it seems like what we think of when we hear the word "scientist" will be more of a generalist who is very familiar with areas of interest, but is primarily a reserch expert....

[Labrat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

So would Research be a skill? I can see it more as a Skill Enhancer right up there with Scientist, Jack-Of-All-Trades and Traveller... but I can also see it useful a a general Skill that can reflect a good understanding of how to look things up even if you don't know much about it.

[input.jack]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

So would Research be a skill? I can see it more as a Skill Enhancer right up there with Scientist' date=' Jack-Of-All-Trades and Traveller... but I can also see it useful a a general Skill that can reflect a good understanding of how to look things up even if you don't know much about it.[/quote']

 

Our group has been handling Research as a Professional Skill, because as you say, it helps reflect a good understanding of how to look things up. A good Research roll can get the ball rolling alot faster for the Characters.

 

Overall, we havent really changed the structure of Knowledge and Science skills in our games, although I -do- understand what you mean by the difference between old-school "digging through a mound of books" and modern "point and click" research.

 

Usually we treat it like a "special effect"; a character from a culture where things are more "hands on" will usually also have a few technical/engineering Professional Skills to complement their Sciences and Knowledges, and will also get a circumstance bonus for doing things that require that kind of approach.

 

(If a 1950s Pulp Detective and a time-displaced 2250's Space Patrol Officer somehow end up in the Library of Congress looking for some papers in 1954, the "local boy" would be getting to roll Research without a penalty, but the Star Patrol Officer would probably roll at a -2 because the method is so different from what hes used to).

 

I hope thats helpful

[Labrat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Our group has been handling Research as a Professional Skill' date=' because as you say, it helps reflect a good understanding of how to look things up. A good Research roll can get the ball rolling alot faster for the Characters.[/quote']

 

Que bueno! Me gusto! Gracias!

 

That's brilliant, IJ.

 

Reppedo!

[input.jack]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Muchos gracias!

[Labrat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Muchos gracias!

 

Ugh.

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to input.jack again.

 

Now that's two I owe you.

[OddHat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

I agree that "Research" is a skill all its own, and usually include it in scientist package deals.

 

I'd add that knowledge of the field will always be vital for telling good information from bad. KS: Art History guy in my campaign could use a good library or web connection and get a bonus to his roll based on the quality of his library on or off-line (you'll probably get better info from a Proquest search than a general web search). KS: Art History Web Sites guy can still come up with a ton of information, maybe faster, but without KS: Art History he'll have a harder time telling the difference between good info (say from peer reviewed journals) and junk info from a casual hobbyist or conspiracy nut.

[Nyrath]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Research skill change with time, though. When I was young, it meant spending time in the library. Now it is trying to figure out what keywords to type into Google.

 

And that is a real skill. I can often dig up info that my wife cannot, because I know un-obvious keywords to use.

 

I've heard that effective websearch skills are something that should become part of children's basic education.

[OddHat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Research skill change with time, though. When I was young, it meant spending time in the library. Now it is trying to figure out what keywords to type into Google.

 

And that is a real skill. I can often dig up info that my wife cannot, because I know un-obvious keywords to use.

 

I've heard that effective websearch skills are something that should become part of children's basic education.

 

While I agree, I'd add that most skills change with time. "Medicine" is not the same skill today it was thirty years ago, and it certainly isn't the same skill it was three hundred years ago. GURPS handled this fairly well with a tech level system. When we were kids, we learned "Research (TL:7)". Now we're using "Research (TL:8)". The "Computer Programing (TL:7b)" we learned in our teens is worthless now, but some of us have gone on to pick up "Computer Programing (TL:8a)". There are suggestions for something similar in Star Hero iirc.

[Labrat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

While I agree' date=' I'd add that most skills change with time. "Medicine" is not the same skill today it was thirty years ago, and it certainly isn't the same skill it was three hundred years ago. GURPS handled this fairly well with a tech level system. When we were kids, we learned "Research (TL:7)". Now we're using "Research (TL:8)". The "Computer Programing (TL:7b)" we learned in our teens is worthless now, but some of us have gone on to pick up "Computer Programing (TL:8a)". There are suggestions for something similar in Star Hero iirc.[/quote']

 

I'd agree. Good Research Skills + Advanced Technology = Better Search Efficiency not 'Better Research Skill'. Although Nyrath is pretty much saying the same thing.

 

I also like your (Oddhat's) addition about discriminating 'good' sources of information vs. 'poor' sources of information. That is a true benefit of Knowledge Skill + Research Skill + Technology and probably the strongest application of the Knowledge Skill in game terms.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

I'd agree. Good Research Skills + Advanced Technology = Better Search Efficiency not 'Better Research Skill'. Although Nyrath is pretty much saying the same thing.

 

I also like your (Oddhat's) addition about discriminating 'good' sources of information vs. 'poor' sources of information. That is a true benefit of Knowledge Skill + Research Skill + Technology and probably the strongest application of the Knowledge Skill in game terms.

 

This distinction seems valuable to me as well. Anyone can find out information on a given subject on the Internet; with good research skills they can find a great deal of information. But to understand what info is pertinent, and how it fits together, is very much dependent on a good working familiarity with the subject.

 

OTOH having a greater knowledge base of the details of a given subject can be invaluable for an adventurous lifestyle (which is after all what our games try to emulate), where there can be dozens of reasons why you may not have access to any online resources at a time when you really need to know something. One thing I've noticed is that as our society becomes more dependant on technology, we become more lost if something happens to take that technology away, like a simple power failure. Under those circumstances the people who can do without tech are the ones who tend to take charge.

 

Besides, being able to pull obscure facts out of memory at need is good for impressing the bystanders.

[Labrat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

This distinction seems valuable to me as well. Anyone can find out information on a given subject on the Internet; with good research skills they can find a great deal of information. But to understand what info is pertinent, and how it fits together, is very much dependent on a good working familiarity with the subject.

 

OTOH having a greater knowledge base of the details of a given subject can be invaluable for an adventurous lifestyle (which is after all what our games try to emulate), where there can be dozens of reasons why you may not have access to any online resources at a time when you really need to know something. One thing I've noticed is that as our society becomes more dependant on technology, we become more lost if something happens to take that technology away, like a simple power failure. Under those circumstances the people who can do without tech are the ones who tend to take charge.

 

Besides, being able to pull obscure facts out of memory at need is good for impressing the bystanders.

 

And this is why I chose to put this topic here and not under the General Hero Boards because as Tech advances in the future, the more likely portable libraries via wrist-top computers and such will be much more common. 'Not having web access' will probably be an uncommon thing... unless, like you said, the entire net goes down.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Or somebody captures you and takes away your wrist-computer. Or you're in a region/planet/etc. where you can't pick up a signal. Or you're in an area of massive EM interference, or have been subject to an EM pulse, and your cybernetics are scrambled. Or... well, you get the idea.

 

I'm not saying that your postulate about the increasing dependence on research instead of knowledge isn't likely; it's probably inevitable. But IMO it's rather like reading and writing skills: as electronics do more of the thinking for us (spell-checkers, people communicating via audiovisuals or shorthand jargon), jobs requiring fluent reading and writing will likely become fewer, as will the folks who can do them; but those jobs that really require fluent reading and writing will be considered skilled positions, and the people with those skills will be paid accordingly.

 

Increasing specialization tends to reduce the need for a good generalist, but makes the generalist very valuable on those occasions when he is needed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Cramming, and perhaps an enhanced version of it (hopefully Steve will do a little expansion there in TUS) could also be really helpful here. Maybe or maybe not as the actual research skill, but at the least something complimentary to it.

[fwcain]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

I've always considered research to be one of those special (non-combat) skill areas vital to almost any career, from detective to journalist to historian to scientist.

 

Franklin

[Labrat]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Or somebody captures you and takes away your wrist-computer. Or you're in a region/planet/etc. where you can't pick up a signal. Or you're in an area of massive EM interference, or have been subject to an EM pulse, and your cybernetics are scrambled. Or... well, you get the idea.

 

I'm not saying that your postulate about the increasing dependence on research instead of knowledge isn't likely; it's probably inevitable. But IMO it's rather like reading and writing skills: as electronics do more of the thinking for us (spell-checkers, people communicating via audiovisuals or shorthand jargon), jobs requiring fluent reading and writing will likely become fewer, as will the folks who can do them; but those jobs that really require fluent reading and writing will be considered skilled positions, and the people with those skills will be paid accordingly.

 

Increasing specialization tends to reduce the need for a good generalist, but makes the generalist very valuable on those occasions when he is needed.

 

Yep. Agreed.

[pinecone]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

THis might be a good use for an odd-ball use of PSL's, a "genius researcher" could buy PSL's for using skills, because he/she is sooo good they don't take penaltys that other do...in rough circumstances they will really shine, without "blowing the curve" by buying skills at 18+.....or a plain old genious might have PSL's for "lack of tech support" because he just plain Knows the subject, so losing access means little...

[Nyrath]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Or somebody captures you and takes away your wrist-computer. Or you're in a region/planet/etc. where you can't pick up a signal. Or you're in an area of massive EM interference' date=' or have been subject to an EM pulse, and your cybernetics are scrambled. Or... well, you get the idea. [/quote']

Agreed. I get twitchy whenever I go visit my parents in the remote forests of Virginia. No cable modem. No open wi-fi nodes. My pocket Nokia 770 internet tablet doesn't work. I start clawing the walls, whimpering that I'm cut off from reality...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

Agreed. I get twitchy whenever I go visit my parents in the remote forests of Virginia. No cable modem. No open wi-fi nodes. My pocket Nokia 770 internet tablet doesn't work. I start clawing the walls' date=' whimpering that I'm cut off from reality...[/quote']

Yes, but I bet if you HAD to go to the local library to look something up, you could manage.

 

But IMO it's rather like reading and writing skills: as electronics do more of the thinking for us (spell-checkers' date=' people communicating via audiovisuals or shorthand jargon), jobs requiring fluent reading and writing will likely become fewer, as will the folks who can do them; but those jobs that really require fluent reading and writing will be considered skilled positions, and the people with those skills will be paid accordingly.[/quote']

To push your analogy a step further: spell/grammar checkers can (at least in theory) save you from making certain basic mechanical errors. But while they might be able to keep you from writing a bad sentence, that's not the same thing as being able to write a good sentence. Even setting artistic considerations aside for a moment, a paragraph can be grammatically perfect and spelled correctly and yet still fail to convey any information.

[insert your own rant here about software/hardware manuals, etc. ]

 

I see a lot of modern technology the same way: it can keep you from being a bad [whatever], but it doesn’t make you a good [whatever]. The Internet can supply a near-infinite stream of data, but even assuming the data itself is sound -- itself a big assumption, as Oddhat and others have pointed out -- half the battle is being able to sort through the data to pick out the important bits.

 

For another example, I have a friend that routinely relies on his GPS to drive anywhere, even to the grocery store. Yet he's utterly helpless when a road is closed and he has to make a detour that confuses the GPS; let alone when he gets some bad data, either from out-of-date maps or from bad user inputs. As a result, I often wind up doing the navigation, even tho I'm just visiting and he's lived in that town his whole life. So while a “normal” person (without Navigation skill) might be able to get from A to B under “normal” circumstances with a GPS, someone with Navigation skill has a better chance of getting there under adverse or unusual circumstances.

 

So…to tie it back into the original question, in futuristic games I assume any player with access to a decent library database can come up with most commonly-known information (ie – a Wikipedia entry). Given enough time, they can probably dig up some supporting information (ie – various webpages exploring the topic in greater detail); but they may or may not be able to fairly evaluate the information. Someone with an underlying KS in the subject can do the same search in a tenth the time (because they already have the right pages bookmarked), can quickly pick out the important points, more easily spot fallacious arguments that might not be apparent to a casual observer, may recognize that a certain author is particularly respected or has a particular axe to grind, and can better evaluate what all the data means.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

BTW, one of my favorite quotes has always been "Why memorize something when you can look it up in a book?" spoken by Albert Einstein a few generations before the Internet came along.

[input.jack]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

THis might be a good use for an odd-ball use of PSL's' date=' a "genius researcher" could buy PSL's for using skills, because he/she is sooo good they don't take penaltys that other do...in rough circumstances they will really shine, without "blowing the curve" by buying skills at 18+.....or a plain old genious might have PSL's for "lack of tech support" because he just plain Knows the subject, so losing access means little...[/quote']

 

That.....it just....BRILLIANT!

 

I gotta go rewrite one of my major NPCs now....shes definately gotta have those PSLs!

[pinecone]

Re: Knowledge Skills in the Future

 

I can go now...my work is done...