What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

[SteveZilla]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

How bout making it 11 + STAT?

That would eliminate the "breakpoints" issue that makes 3 and 8 "magic numbers." It would mean that every point in the characteristic counts for something. Why create greater granularity if you're not going to use it?

 

That makes for the most granularity possible! And would make for ungodly high rolls for some Supers (not that they can't already be really, really high). I believe a 1:1 ratio is not needed for better granularity, and would also make too great a difference to skill rolls (where IMO the point should be the skill).

 

Also, I've found that using a 2.5 divisor produces unequal "groupings" of roll values. stats of 9-11 produce a +4, but only 12-13 produces +5. Raising it to 3 would get rid of the unequal groups, and keep the emphasis on the skill, IMO.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Don't worry' date=' if ever attack you. You'll know it. I will say that some of your replies on this thread have been heading in the direction I describd and rapdily. Comments such as "not having the opinion beaten out of you" for a recent example. Taking a lighter approach might reduce some of "hostile" reaction you feel you're getting.[/quote']

 

Nexus, your attack is not very well vieled as is your thinly vieled threat about "You'll know it." As for Comments such as "not having the opinion beaten out of you", I can't say I am sorry for the response. I feel attacked en masse by many of you and for no good reason. I came and I asked for an open discussion. Now you are pretty hostile just in this little response. Can you blame me for feeling this way?

 

As for taking a lighter approach....how much lighter can I take it than making fun of it, hence the "opinion beaten out of me" statement. I treat it with as much humor as possible.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Perhaps because they aren't needed?

 

Need in a game system is non-existant. Since it is a form of entertainment, it all amounts to what you PREFER in the game system as nothing is NEEDED in system thats meant for a pastime, not for survival. Some people PREFER the game system as is.....great.....have fun. Some people prefer talking about new ideas and contemplating game mechanics and theory. Why shouldn't we?

[SteveZilla]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I have a problem with this line of thinking. (Not with you' date=' please. This is not a personal attack against you in any way, shape, or form. Just wanted to preface this statement as apparently there are some who can't take a joke.).....(Not that I am saying you are one of those people.....which I don't really know you so I could not surmise as to the general sense of humor or level of intelligence of you as a person though I am sure it is quite high......Not that I am insinuating that I know you on a personal level, as I don't.....there....is that enough cushion for everybody.....not that I think you need cushioning.....Its just...er.....just nevermind)[/quote']

 

 

I have a problem with this line of thinking. What if I want to make a street level game where the strength levels DO change drastically. Hero should be able to adapt to both.

 

So, are you saying that the core rulebook should have the block maneuver incorporate STR vs. STR in some way? Or that it should be an optional rule for the block maneuver that the GM can use or not for his game?

 

Hero' date=' God bless it, is MORE than JUST a super-hero game. It is a game that can adapt to multiple genres.[/quote']

 

(Just think, if you were a High Cleric of Steve Long, it could be a +1 game now! )

 

The thing is, the core rulebook is pertty good (my Texas accent is coming though again) in many genres -- it does a good job at balancing between power levels and "realisms" inherent in having different genres. But it's not perfect for any one genre -- except maybe superheroes. That's why we have all the various sourcebooks, campaign books, and the T.U._____ books. Don't they contain the rules to "tailor" the core system better to a particular genre and level of realism?

 

IMO almost any change one makes to favor a particular genre or level of realism (and makes it a non-optional rule) is tilting the core rulebook off "balance". Favoring street-level gritty realism games *disfavors* things like space-opera or 4-color comic book games. Not that you or anybody else favors or disfavors any of those...

 

And that kind of change, while still fundamental, is a different kind of change than how killing attacks are rolled or bought (to take a f'rinstance). One seeks to lean the game's core foundation in the direction of one or more genres/realisms, the other is pure mechanics. Not that we can't discuss both kinds of changes here -- I didn't start the thread. Just thought I'd make the distinction.

 

While the system has GREAT systems for realistic and for comic-book physics' date=' I think that (In my humble opinion. Hope no one is offended by it) the system needs to be able to acid test itself both to a "realistic" physics with unusual circumstances and "super-hero" physics as well. It does it NEAR FLAWLESSLY in several circumstances, but this is one thing that bothers me a bit in the system. Thats all. I think a Rules variant for Block for those who prefer it would be a good move. I don't think a Variant would ruin it for anyone.[/quote']

 

Ah, a variant. As in an optional rule, like hit locations? That's fine with me. But if it's an optional rule, is it really a fundamental change?

 

But I am wondering if such an optional rule would be better placed in a supplement. We can't include *every* possible optional rule in the core book.

 

(Please don't report me' date=' If I offended anyone.....not that I want to offend you by asking you not to be offended.......)[/quote']

 

What if my natural state of being is to be offended? Huh? Didja consider *that*? Huh? Didja? Betcha didn't.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Need in a game system is non-existant. Since it is a form of entertainment' date=' it all amounts to what you PREFER in the game system as nothing is NEEDED in system thats meant for a pastime, not for survival. Some people PREFER the game system as is.....great.....have fun. Some people prefer talking about new ideas and contemplating game mechanics and theory. Why shouldn't we?[/quote']

 

But doesn't desire create a need? (Yes, I know, I'm mincing words. To tell the truth, I deliberately used the word 'need', and hoped nobody would call me on the distinction. Kudos for spotting the difference, Rkane! )

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Nexus, your attack is not very well vieled as is your thinly vieled threat about "You'll know it."

 

Actually, Rkane, the point wasn't to threaten you it was that my orginal statement wasn't an attack. When I get pi**ed its painfully obvious therefore you'll know it when it happens. For one thing, if I was annoyed with something you said I would respond TO you not someone else.

 

Your thread and behavior have been going along the same lines as SO many other threads like this as far I've seen, yet I've tried to contribute to this thing and keep it civil on the assumption you weren't just trolling. I've tried to give a bit of advice that might get you better results.

 

Threatening and macho posturing online is, IMO, a waste of time so I try to avoid indulging in it.

 

As for Comments such as "not having the opinion beaten out of you", I can't say I am sorry for the response. I feel attacked en masse by many of you and for no good reason. I came and I asked for an open discussion. Now you are pretty hostile just in this little response. Can you blame me for feeling this way?

 

Give hostile, you get hostile in return.

 

As for taking a lighter approach....how much lighter can I take it than making fun of it, hence the "opinion beaten out of me" statement. I treat it with as much humor as possible.

 

Which was it meant to be, a responce to a hostile situation or a joke? Its easy to get people ticked at you in the medium, but I suppose I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I've give you my advice so you can take it or leave it. I hope things go well for you.

[mcgreeno]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I would change the fact that characters can by Independent OIF Immoble Bases! I mean really....

 

I buy A Suped up PC server, yea.... Lets see it cost 350pts/5 =70 with a total limiter of (-3 1/2). That's a total cost of 16 points. And it is very leagal, all it means is that the story teller can steal the machine. With some effort...Grrrrr,

 

Now I hide my computer in a 350 pt base that is in deminisoin X, which has only one entrance that is invisable to all senses... Gives me a nice home and a place to store my stuff..... All it cost is IIF Imoble -1 1/4 and it is indipendent as well for a total of....wait for it ,,, 16pts....

 

Grrrrr.. Now as to my uber teloporting vechile that stays at the base, ....

[DreadDomain]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Also' date=' I've found that using a 2.5 divisor produces unequal "groupings" of roll values. stats of 9-11 produce a +4, but only 12-13 produces +5. Raising it to 3 would get rid of the unequal groups, and keep the emphasis on the skill, IMO.[/quote']

 

Without shaking things up too much, that would be my preference too.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Your thread and behavior have been going along the same lines as SO many other threads like this as far I've seen' date=' yet I've tried to contribute to this thing and keep it civil on the assumption you weren't just trolling. I've tried to give a bit of advice that might get you better results. [/quote']

 

To be honest, it came off as 'superior' and 'snobbish', as if I was wasting your time. Which is funny, considering if you didn't want to participate in such a thread, you'd have thought you wouldn't have participated.

 

Threatening and macho posturing online is' date=' IMO, a waste of time so I try to avoid indulging in it. [/nexus']

 

Agreed....then we have no other way to resolve this except for......

 

FROZEN BURRITO HURLING AT 20 PACES!

 

Rkane_1 says "Okay the rules are....*ponk*OW!""

 

nexus begins flinging frozen burritos as he already knows and accepts the rules meanwhile RKane_1 is still debating and explaining them.

 

"HEY! *ponk* WAIT! *ponk* WHAT ABOUT AN OPTIONAL FROZEN ENCHILADA RULE! *PONK!* OW! HEY!"

 

Give hostile, you get hostile in return.

 

Which was it meant to be, a responce to a hostile situation or a joke? Its easy to get people ticked at you in the medium, but I suppose I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I've give you my advice so you can take it or leave it. I hope things go well for you.

 

And for you, thank you for imparting your ancient words of wisdom, but let's get things straight.

 

If challenged, I will not back down automatically in deference to your time on these boards. I don't know anymore than you, but I figure I don't know any less either. I treat you with respect until you begin to treat me with a lack of one which I figure you and others did by ignoring a simple, polite request to post certain things elsewhere and keep the thread pointed in the direction it was originally meant to be. Because of this, half the posts here are ones between you and I and others posting here saying "WE FEAR CHANGE!!" or "KEEP THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT IS!" and me asking them politely to go elsewhere or trying to ignore them. I failed my "Put up with rudeness" roll. I actually had the gaul to say something. So sue me. Then I called someone on it and promptly got sent a message by the site admin because someone thought I knew them well enough to offer a personal attack by offering to draw them a picture to the "New Thread" button was which, to me is just ridiculous. But then, it isn't my board and will abide by their decisions. Why? Because I know the play ground and if teacher says so, you do or you go to detention.

 

Now, would it be too much to ask a simple request? I understand that you guys DON'T want the rules changed. Really....I do. I have made a thread for what people think HERO did RIGHT! If you want to support HERO as is, please go there and state why you think HERO is good! I am not saying HERO is BAD! I am asking for input on what fundamental changes you would make if you were to make any. If not, just read and perhaps challenge some of the specific ideas. If you wish to offer a logical reason as to why each specific variant should NOT be changed, then please do. I like having ideas tested. But the endless parade of snide and bullying remarks is SO old and unwanted frankly, that it got on my nerves. Sorry for the "hostility' but I figure it was hostile people being rude enough to do EXACTLY what the original post asked them to do. Someone wise once told me :Give hostile, you get hostile in return. I suppose the same goes for rudeness.

 

Then forgive my rudeness and let us all start again in a spirit of overwhelming unity and brotherhood of HERO players.

 

Hallelujah...

 

 

Amen.

[nexus]

To be honest, it came off as 'superior' and 'snobbish', as if I was wasting your time. Which is funny, considering if you didn't want to participate in such a thread, you'd have thought you wouldn't have participated.

 

And you've largely come across, when commenting about peopole that didn't follow your line of thinking regarding changing the system as condescending and smart a**ed, so there you go. I didn't want to participate I wouldn't have. The thread doesn't bother me at all. I've stated similar ones in tne past; but it is travelling down a familar road and I choose to mention it.

 

Threatening and macho posturing online is' date=' IMO, a waste of time so I try to avoid indulging in it. [/quote']

 

Agreed....then we have no other way to resolve this except for......

 

FROZEN BURRITO HURLING AT 20 PACES!

 

Rkane_1 says "Okay the rules are....*ponk*OW!""

 

nexus begins flinging frozen burritos as he already knows and accepts the rules meanwhile RKane_1 is still debating and explaining them.

 

"HEY! *ponk* WAIT! *ponk* WHAT ABOUT AN OPTIONAL FROZEN ENCHILADA RULE! *PONK!* OW! HEY!"

 

Funny... pity that is has pretty much nothing to do with whats really going on considering Ive posted some things I'd see changed and other things of yours I've "attacked" was your position on the Block Manuever where I suggested that that it would make a better variant rule or perhaps that the manuever to should be renamed to better reflect what means. I thought you wanted to discuss changes and their possible impact?

 

Anyway, good luck with your time on the boards.

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Personally, I would love to see a a book of more detailed "realistic" rules for lower powered style games done in Hero. Rules you could throw to make things more down to earth, like expanded healing and injury, more detailed damaged rules and all that sort of thing. It seems like it would be a good addition to the line.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

And you've largely come across' date=' when commenting about peopole that didn't follow your line of thinking regarding changing the system as condescending and smart a**ed, so there you go. I didn't want to participate I wouldn't have. The thread doesn't bother me at all. I've stated similar ones in tne past; but it is travelling down a familar road and I choose to mention it. [/quote']

 

Um...what thread have you been reading? Not this one or the others I have participated in. Care to give a reference? I have pretty much supported any and all new ideas or gave a logical reason for not liking them. Are you SURE you are thinking of me? Maybe not attributing the behavior of those in the past to my behavior because it supports your immediate argument? Please...cite examples, if yoyu would, kind sir.

 

 

 

Funny... pity that is has pretty much nothing to do with whats really going on considering Ive posted some things I'd see changed and other things of yours I've "attacked" was your position on the Block Manuever where I suggested that that it would make a better variant rule or perhaps that the manuever to should be renamed to better reflect what means. I thought you wanted to discuss changes and their possible impact?

 

And you felt attacked on the thread about your block feedback. Hell, I thought it was a well-written response? I put out my ideas and then recieved feedback. Couldn't be happier with the outcome. Also thought Stevezilla's points on the block were good, which is why I basically acquiesced with the point that possibly a genre specific variant would be better,, but then that would not be a fundamental rule change, as someone pointed out.

 

Still curious why you feel this way but I'll let it drop. I'd prefer just to get on with the point of the thread.

 

Anyway, good luck with your time on the boards.

 

And to you and thanks for your participation.

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Um...what thread have you been reading? Not this one or the others I have participated in. Care to give a reference? I have pretty much supported any and all new ideas or gave a logical reason for not liking them. Are you SURE you are thinking of me? Maybe not attributing the behavior of those in the past to my behavior because it supports your immediate argument? Please...cite examples, if yoyu would, kind sir.

 

I didn't say you never gave a reason for not liking what you did, but your responces to that that didn't agree with your line of thought about this thread in its entirity have been smart a**ed and rather condescending. Though as far I can see looking back over the thread there's been Kristopher and Ndreare made a comment that more or less a joke. rcjcurrie expressed ome concern that threads like this give a bad impression to new comers to thre system but he didn't attack you that I saw.

 

And you felt attacked on the thread about your block feedback.

 

AFAIK, you never responded to it. I never felt you attacked you or anyone else. What you felt was an attack, or responce to a attack ( I assume that mean why responce to rjcurrie) was a comment on past threads of this type and their creators. When you asked me more about I told you that yes, I did think you were moving in that direction and ratcheting it back might get you better, more productive results if that was your goal.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I didn't say you never gave a reason for not liking what you did, but your responces to that that didn't agree with your line of thought about this thread in its entirity have been smart a**ed and rather condescending. Though as far I can see looking back over the thread there's been Kristopher and Ndreare made a comment that more or less a joke. rcjcurrie expressed ome concern that threads like this give a bad impression to new comers to thre system but he didn't attack you that I saw.

 

 

 

AFAIK, you never responded to it. I never felt you attacked you or anyone else. What you felt was an attack, or responce to a attack ( I assume that mean why responce to rjcurrie) was a comment on past threads of this type and their creators. When you asked me more about I told you that yes, I did think you were moving in that direction and ratcheting it back might get you better, more productive results if that was your goal.

 

Excellent.....frozen enchilada?

 

*RKane_1 offers nexus the golden enchilada or happiness and peace as a gesture of goodwill*

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Personally' date=' I would love to see a a book of more detailed "realistic" rules for lower powered style games done in Hero. Rules you could throw to make things more down to earth, like expanded healing and injury, more detailed damaged rules and all that sort of thing. It seems like it would be a good addition to the line.[/quote']

 

I agree as well as some more "realistic" repurcussions to "super-powers" like the Block Variant previously discussed. Something like rules variants for adding certain amounts of realism, though I also think inclusion of some VERY good rules variants and house rules I have seen online for adding more drama as well, like a Hero Point system. (someone made a GREAT Hero Point type system modelled after old Theatrix rules for a Pulp campaign online. I cannot find them again but they were well worth the read.)

[roch]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I agree with the above - it's not really a "change" per se, but the one genre where I have always suspected HERO would struggle was Horror, which is a genre I've always been keen on running. I resorted to GURPS for the horror adventure our group played.

 

So I'd love to see some additions/enhancements/options to support wide dfferentiation between very low-powered characters.

 

That's just the kind of guy I am

 

(_8(0)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I agree as well as some more "realistic" repurcussions to "super-powers" like the Block Variant previously discussed.

 

This would be the limit based on STR, I assume. That's a slippery slope, however. At present, we have Block and Missile Deflection. Block can be used to deflect any HTH attack. Missile Deflection can deflect any ranged attack.

 

If we set a limit on Block that says "Regardless of SFX, you can't Deflect an attack that has more than twice your STR behind it" (for the sake of picking a benchmark), what repercussions does that have on an HTH attack of 150% your STR, backed up by large amounts of Hand Attack defined as "hitting harder". The attack still hits with twice your STR, but through different SFX. What about that Speedster who has +6d6 HA to represent striking you 100 times before you can react? Should you have to roll 100 successful Blocks to avoid that damage?

 

What about missile deflecting an attack whose SFX provide the same "more than double your STR" hitting power? Most ranged attacks do knockback, so they have physical power behind them. How can the Martial Artist deflect that hammer thrown by the Thunder God?

 

Do we now need a construct for having extra STR only to determine what can be blocked/deflected (ie limited STR)? Do bonus damage classes with Martial Arts increase the power of attacks your Martial Block can block? Captain America is pretty strong, but I would suggest the Hulk (who he has blocked in the source material) and Thor (whose hammer has been deflected in the source material) are both attacking with power well beyond double Cap's STR.

 

And this only gets into straight "I interpose something between the attack and me" special effects. Missilie Deflect or Block as a "super-dodge" are not reasonably limited by the power of the attacks they can avoid.

 

Why not just have the character you want to be tough to block to buy Indirect on his STR, Limited to blocks by characters of less than X STR. The game mechanics don't need to change, and your character has "Too Strong to Block".

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

This would be the limit based on STR' date=' I assume. That's a slippery slope, however. At present, we have Block and Missile Deflection. Block can be used to deflect any HTH attack. Missile Deflection can deflect any ranged attack.[/quote']

 

If we set a limit on Block that says "Regardless of SFX' date=' you can't Deflect an attack that has more than twice your STR behind it" (for the sake of picking a benchmark), what repercussions does that have on an HTH attack of 150% your STR, backed up by large amounts of Hand Attack defined as "hitting harder". The attack still hits with twice your STR, but through different SFX. What about that Speedster who has +6d6 HA to represent striking you 100 times before you can react? Should you have to roll 100 successful Blocks to avoid that damage?[/qoute']

 

What does the system say now? Well, the Block thrown simply blocks all 100 shots. Not realistic but a good basic rule of thumb for a super-hero game, but sloppy, all in all, when it comes to "realism" Maybe this will take some thought.

 

What about missile deflecting an attack whose SFX provide the same "more than double your STR" hitting power? Most ranged attacks do knockback' date=' so they have physical power behind them. How can the Martial Artist deflect that hammer thrown by the Thunder God?[/quote']

 

For Ranged attacks with a Physical Manifestation, you could take a Limitation on your Missile Defelection that it must have a Physical Manifesatation and then a limit as to what you can block. QED on that one.

 

Do we now need a construct for having extra STR only to determine what can be blocked/deflected (ie limited STR)?

 

You could put that limitation on the Strength, I suppose but that would be like for any Limitation. Only to Counter Blocking, I suppose.

 

Do bonus damage classes with Martial Arts increase the power of attacks your Martial Block can block?

 

Wow! Good question. I would have to say yes, otherwise the power of the added would not match the defense proposed. Keep these questions comin'!

 

Captain America is pretty strong' date=' but I would suggest the Hulk (who he has blocked in the source material) and Thor (whose hammer has been deflected in the source material) are both attacking with power well beyond double Cap's STR.[/quote']

 

Hate to display my total geekitude here, but Cap's Shield is made of an Adamnatium/Vibranium hyrbid. Two fictional Metals that, when mixed together, form a nigh invulnerable shield that actually ABSORBS energy such as the punches of Hulk which dent tanks. Not a good example. Have we ever seen Shang-Chi, master of martial arts block Hulk? Or just someone with a little karate skill who was tired of this big green guy messin' up his hometown? Do we prevent normal characters from buying Block as its too powerful in its current form? I mean, as I have mentioned before, someone who has trained in karate and has bought the Block Maneuver can Block the Hulk with the current system.

 

And this only gets into straight "I interpose something between the attack and me" special effects. Missilie Deflect or Block as a "super-dodge" are not reasonably limited by the power of the attacks they can avoid.

 

This is true, but the mechanic for Dodge is already in place. Perhaps there could well be an Improved Dodge that offers the +2 bonus of the block as it stands in HERO now but might cost more.

 

Why not just have the character you want to be tough to block to buy Indirect on his STR' date=' Limited to blocks by characters of less than X STR. The game mechanics don't need to change, and your character has "Too Strong to Block".[/quote']

 

Because the base character with a lot of strength JUST has a lot of strength and shouldn't have to buy an extra power JUST to represent the Strength he should already have. The mechanic, IMHO, needs to be fixed to be more realistic in and of itself or at least offer a more realistic variant for those that want it in their campaign.

 

Let me work on something and make a proposal. I know a lot of you guys will tear it apart or may not like it but now I feel challenged to present something more defined than just this vague idea of mine. Thanks for your input, keep it coming.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Why not just have the character you want to be tough to block to buy Indirect on his STR' date=' Limited to blocks by characters of less than X STR. The game mechanics don't need to change, and your character has "Too Strong to Block". [/quote']

 

Because the base character with a lot of strength JUST has a lot of strength and shouldn't have to buy an extra power JUST to represent the Strength he should already have. The mechanic, IMHO, needs to be fixed to be more realistic in and of itself or at least offer a more realistic variant for those that want it in their campaign.

 

That is one approach. I think that Hugh has it right though. The system defaults to STR that can be blocked just as it defaults to Entangle that doesn't allow you to hit the entangled character.

 

If you want STR that cannot be blocked if the STR of the blocker is not sufficient then you need to pay more and indirect (limited by how common it would be for the STR to exceed other peoples). This is one of the beauties of the system - that it can be built in this way. What you would be doing is increasing the game value of STR without increasing the cost of it. You might decide that the utility gained is not worth an increase in cost but it is one fo the things that you should be thinking about when you construct your realistic variant.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

What does the system say now? Well' date=' the Block thrown simply blocks all 100 shots. Not realistic but a good basic rule of thumb for a super-hero game, but sloppy, all in all, when it comes to "realism" Maybe this will take some thought.[/quote']

 

There's a limit to how much realism you can import. If you won't let my Speedster "block" the Hulk with his speed-based martial arts (rapid evasion), then why should Shang Chi be able to block all 100 of my strikes with no penalty, regardless of how it's constructed?

 

For Ranged attacks with a Physical Manifestation' date=' you could take a Limitation on your Missile Defelection that it must have a Physical Manifesatation and then a limit as to what you can block. QED on that one.[/quote']

 

Why a physical manifestation? Iron Man's repulsor rays are energy, but have significant force behind them. So does any energy blast which does Knockback, and that's the majority of them. How can you "deflect" that huge amount of energy with a stick and your normal human strength? Again, if you're going to be realistic in regards to physical strength, shouldn't you be realistic with respect to other forms of force?

 

Taking this further, I can spread my energy blast to fill one or more hexes. If I spread to fill the MA's hex, can he still block my flame bolt (not very realistic if I spread it to fill an entire hex), or can I subtract 1DC from my attack to render his Missile Deflection useless (not very balanced)?

 

Hate to display my total geekitude here' date=' but Cap's Shield is made of an Adamnatium/Vibranium hyrbid. Two fictional Metals that, when mixed together, form a nigh invulnerable shield that actually ABSORBS energy such as the punches of Hulk which dent tanks. Not a good example. Have we ever seen Shang-Chi, master of martial arts block Hulk? Or just someone with a little karate skill who was tired of this big green guy messin' up his hometown? Do we prevent normal characters from buying Block as its too powerful in its current form? I mean, as I have mentioned before, someone who has trained in karate and has bought the Block Maneuver can Block the Hulk with the current system.[/quote']

 

Actually, when Cap was "discharged" and operating as The Captain, he had a vibranium shield that DID absorb energy. His regular shield did not. There was a scene where Cap held the new shield with his feet while falling from a plane, and noted this was something his old shield could not have accomplished.

 

In an old "Avengers vs Avengers" storyline, Cap notes that he needs to angle his shield just right to deflect Thor's hammer, or the impact will injure him anyway. It's not just shoving the shield between himself and the attack, it's also angling it to deflect, not absorb, the blow. A legitimate part of the Block maneuver, IMO. Otherwise, a bare handed target should never be able to Block a knife - he'd just get stabbed in the arm.

 

For your more "realistic" approach, however, there was an Avengers issue shortly before Disassembled where a Wrecking Crew member broke Cap's arms by repeatedly punching the shield as Cap blocked. I think that's better interpreted as an "18" on the block roll, however.

 

This is true' date=' but the mechanic for Dodge is already in place. Perhaps there could well be an Improved Dodge that offers the +2 bonus of the block as it stands in HERO now but might cost more.[/quote']

 

Dodge enhances DCV. Block is commonly used for the SFX of a "super-dodge" to reflect avoiding multiple blows, and Missile Deflect as a "super-dodge" to avoid multiple ranged attacks. The description of the maneuver in role playing terms is not necessarily the name of the maneuver in mechanical terms.

 

Because the base character with a lot of strength JUST has a lot of strength and shouldn't have to buy an extra power JUST to represent the Strength he should already have. The mechanic' date=' IMHO, needs to be fixed to be more realistic in and of itself or at least offer a more realistic variant for those that want it in their campaign.[/quote']

 

Well, the flame (cold) energy projector probably shouldn't have to buy an extra power to injure you even when you Missile Deflect because the object you deflect with gets superheated (superchilled), by the same logic. How realistic do you want to get? Or should it only be Bricks who get this "cannot be blocked" advantage?

[Blacktiger]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Ok, so I only got to page 4 before I gave up on trying to read this entire thread... so if I repeat anything said previously sorry.

Figured Characteristics

I've noticed a lot of people seem to think figured characteristics need to be changed somehow. I think the only way I would change them, is to make them a static number based off of the primary characteristics. Obviously this would make some characters like speedsters impossible, but remember that a speedster's speed is their POWER. So if a character wants to increase a figured characteristic beyond the normal limit they would buy a power to represent that.

 

This would make creating a character easier for newcomers I think since they don't have to worry about as many characteristics. Not to mention that it makes more sense to look for a power to increase a characters stats beyond normal.

 

I would make speed be not only a function of dexterity, but also of strength since a fast runner has to train their leg muscles not only to respond quickly but also to push harder.

 

I would make STUN and BODY both be figured characteristics, with skills and powers to increase these. For example, someone who has had a lot of combat training should probably be able to take more damage.

 

Damage

Combat damage seems a bit more complicated than necessary as well. Powers, weapons, and HTH damage should still be based on the standard 3d6 roll with the damage increased by multipliers. This way you avoid having to roll 8 million dice for Superman. This also maintains the bell curve probability instead of smoothing it out into a more linear curve. That way critically high and low damage rolls are more rare.

 

One Last Thing...

Maybe I just don't understand the system well enough yet, but combat skill levels seem wildly over-powerful. Buying say 10 +8 CSLs pretty much guarantees that your character can't be hit and can hit anyone. All you have to do is use just enough to hit your opponent and enough to make sure you aren't hit.

 

I attempted to start a game last semester, but it died out because we couldn't get more than two people to show up at a time. One of the two that showed up had a martial artist that used his abilities and his CSLs to pretty much slaughter everything while the other PC couldn't hardly hit anything. It seems wrong that two characters based on the same points should be so wildly different.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

GURP!

 

 

 

 

...excuse me, I must have ate too many beans at lunch.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I've noticed a lot of people seem to think figured characteristics need to be changed somehow. I think the only way I would change them, is to make them a static number based off of the primary characteristics. Obviously this would make some characters like speedsters impossible, but remember that a speedster's speed is their POWER. So if a character wants to increase a figured characteristic beyond the normal limit they would buy a power to represent that.

 

This would make creating a character easier for newcomers I think since they don't have to worry about as many characteristics. Not to mention that it makes more sense to look for a power to increase a characters stats beyond normal.

 

I fail to see any great simplification between having a stat you can buy up and having a static stat that you buy up as a power, other than forcing the player to look in two different places in the rule book.

 

I would make speed be not only a function of dexterity' date=' but also of strength since a fast runner has to train their leg muscles not only to respond quickly but also to push harder.[/quote']

 

Ummm...the Speed stat (which is a function of DEX) determines how often you act, not how fast you can run. Running speed is not a figured characteristic at all.

 

I would make STUN and BODY both be figured characteristics' date=' with skills and powers to increase these. For example, someone who has had a lot of combat training should probably be able to take more damage.[/quote']

 

You can already buy up your STUN and BOD with the explanation that a lot of combat training allows him to take more damage. Meanwhile, another character who is highly combat trained, but sickly and feeble, would not buy those stats up. I prefer to have the various abilities broken down into their component parts and buy what's right for my character, not have a bunch of prepackaged "Ability Mixes". YMMV, but I don't think of the prepackaged deals as "Hero". Take it far enough, and we have Feats and Classes (or Heroes Unlimited, where you can boost your stats very effectively with skills).

 

Combat damage seems a bit more complicated than necessary as well. Powers' date=' weapons, and HTH damage should still be based on the standard 3d6 roll with the damage increased by multipliers. This way you avoid having to roll 8 million dice for Superman. This also maintains the bell curve probability instead of smoothing it out into a more linear curve. That way critically high and low damage rolls are more rare.[/quote']

 

ummm...no. The less dice you roll, the more common it is to roll at the extreme ends. You will roll maximum damage on 3d6 once in 216 rolls (once in 1,296 if we add another die to set the multiplier). Maximum damage on 12d6 arises only one time in 2,176,782,336 rolls. That's a bit less common.

 

Maybe I just don't understand the system well enough yet' date=' but combat skill levels seem wildly over-powerful. Buying say 10 +8 CSLs pretty much guarantees that your character can't be hit and can hit anyone. All you have to do is use just enough to hit your opponent and enough to make sure you aren't hit.[/quote']

 

I think you don't understand the system well enough. An 80 point investment is a lot. For the same price, I could buy +40 DEX, no Figured Charx, and get +8 on my DEX skill rolls, as well as +13 on my DCV and OCV, operating simultaneously, rather than allocating +10 between OCV and DCV.

 

I attempted to start a game last semester' date=' but it died out because we couldn't get more than two people to show up at a time. One of the two that showed up had a martial artist that used his abilities and his CSLs to pretty much slaughter everything while the other PC couldn't hardly hit anything. It seems wrong that two characters based on the same points should be so wildly different.[/quote']

 

With great flexibility comes great responsibility. You need to set parameters for characters. I can take 350 points and buy:

 

- +50 DEX (150 points)

- +6 SPD (60 points)

- +65 STR (65 points)

 

And have 75 points left over to flesh out my other stats. I now have a 20 OCV and DCV, move in every segement and inflict 15d6. That's overpowered, but I can buy it with the points. Hero can be very hard for a novice to GM as a result. Using the suggested ranges at the front of the book and tinkering to taste after some experience with the results is a good approach to take.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

There's a limit to how much realism you can import. If you won't let my Speedster "block" the Hulk with his speed-based martial arts (rapid evasion)' date=' then why should Shang Chi be able to block all 100 of my strikes with no penalty, regardless of how it's constructed? [/quote']

 

But thats my point, the Block is an imposition of an object to counter the force of an attack OR the application of a force to either directly counter or redirect the force of an attack...It isn't a Super-dodge. Its the application of a force against a force or the redirection of a force using a force. It's not a Dodge though it is treated as such by many. The Speedster already HAS a valid defense he can use.....a GREAT valid defense that is logical as is the logical one Shang-Chi would likely use and even Spiderman or any other more agile opponent who sees a huge green leviathan coming his way with a big green fist.....they Dodge.

 

 

Why a physical manifestation? Iron Man's repulsor rays are energy' date=' but have significant force behind them. So does any energy blast which does Knockback, and that's the majority of them. How can you "deflect" that huge amount of energy with a stick and your normal human strength? Again, if you're going to be realistic in regards to physical strength, shouldn't you be realistic with respect to other forms of force?[/quote']

 

I agree. I would have issues as a GM approving any application of a Block Maneuver to a a repulsor ray blast. But if we are talking about Missile Deflection, then that is a different animal. Lets stick to Block. If the character came to me with Missile Deflection as a power and claimed he had a stick that could deflect a repulsor ray blast, I would, as a GM have issues with this special effect. I would like to see some limitations on the power that would logically dictate why this was possible. As a Gm, If I didn't "Buy it" then the character can't buy it. Its the way I've always run my game with special effects. If I don't "buy it" then YOU don't buy it.

 

Taking this further' date=' I can spread my energy blast to fill one or more hexes. If I spread to fill the MA's hex, can he still block my flame bolt (not very realistic if I spread it to fill an entire hex), or can I subtract 1DC from my attack to render his Missile Deflection useless (not very balanced)?[/quote']

 

But realistic...

 

Actually, when Cap was "discharged" and operating as The Captain, he had a vibranium shield that DID absorb energy. His regular shield did not. There was a scene where Cap held the new shield with his feet while falling from a plane, and noted this was something his old shield could not have accomplished.

 

In an old "Avengers vs Avengers" storyline, Cap notes that he needs to angle his shield just right to deflect Thor's hammer, or the impact will injure him anyway. It's not just shoving the shield between himself and the attack, it's also angling it to deflect, not absorb, the blow. A legitimate part of the Block maneuver, IMO. Otherwise, a bare handed target should never be able to Block a knife - he'd just get stabbed in the arm.

 

Actually, after a little research, I was wrong in saying the shield is an Adamantium/Vibranium mix. It is a Vibranium/Steel mixture (Thanks, Wikipedia!) but it also is indestructible and absorbs energy.

 

Back in the day, there was a Fantastic Four comic where Gladiator was attacking New York and the FF. Reed got a bright idea after a theory about how Gladiator's power worked and convinced Cap to stand there and TAKE blow after blow disquised by a hologram of Reed Richards. There was a comment then about how Cap's shield absorbed energy which was why Cap could stand up to Gladiator's blows (Gladiator is the quivalent of Superman in the Marvel Universe). It was explained then that the Vibranium/Steel mix allowed this.

 

In a lot the write-ups of Cap, the shield has been built with KB resistance on top of the PD and ED to make it so as well.

 

In my defense, the vibranium/adamantium mistake was because of an error in the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe " entry for cap and many writers used it as source material propogating the error....but I digress.

 

For your more "realistic" approach' date=' however, there was an Avengers issue shortly before Disassembled where a Wrecking Crew member broke Cap's arms by repeatedly punching the shield as Cap blocked. I think that's better interpreted as an "18" on the block roll, however.[/quote']

 

Or the writer just wanting to make it seem that Cap is tough to withstand all that. I hate how powers change from issue to issue or title to title because of the writers. *sigh*

 

Dodge enhances DCV. Block is commonly used for the SFX of a "super-dodge" to reflect avoiding multiple blows' date=' and Missile Deflect as a "super-dodge" to avoid multiple ranged attacks. The description of the maneuver in role playing terms is not necessarily the name of the maneuver in mechanical terms.[/quote']

 

True that, but then they should just call it "Super-Dodge" if thats what it is. I suppose it is semantics with HERO but I tend to call a "Spade", a "Spade". They should either make a mechanic that more realistically offers the realistic implications of a Block, or call it something else like "super-dodge"

 

Well' date=' the flame (cold) energy projector probably shouldn't have to buy an extra power to injure you even when you Missile Deflect because the object you deflect with gets superheated (superchilled), by the same logic. How realistic do you want to get? Or should it only be Bricks who get this "cannot be blocked" advantage?[/quote']

 

Quite simply...a normal human should not be able to buy a maneuver that can block the hurricane force of the Hulk's punch. As the system stands now, he can. I think it should be changed if for no other reason than that....but there are more reason. You are, in a way, proving my point. Because the change to Block does bring up so many ramifications, it *IS* a fundamental change. I think to block super-powered puncyhes and the like should require the expenditure of more points and something distinctly....well...."super".

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I think your getting the name mixed up with the special effect. A Block can be anything, A Dodge can be anything. You'd don't have to physically impose anything at all. If that were the case. Blocks would automatically set off Damage Sheilds (particularly Offensive ones), there would have to rules for taking damage if you block something innately damaging (like blocking a weapon when you have none), thus my suggestion for possibly changing the name to something like Active Defense, or consider it that. Read the descriotion for Block (not being snarky) it does not say you must physically place something in the way of the attack, that is just one possible sfx. A block is not nesscarily a parry. It does say explicitly that the GM is well within their rights to impose a penalty or even disallow a Block against attacks as they see fit, depending on sfx, dramatic sense and game balance.

 

You can't really argue realism. If you're going to screw the guy with Block for "realism" you'd also have to put in rules like Bricks have to buy some degree of TK and Lmiited Flight to keep from sinking into the ground and hold the objects they pick up something really heavy.