Returning weapons?

[xxwolverine1xx]

How could you build something like a boomerang, or Cap's shield? How in the rules could you get it to return to you after it strikes in the same phase? with out having to go pick it up everytime? Just say that is what happens?

 

This was Steve's thought on it. Thanks Steve...

 

 

"There are a couple of ways I can think of offhand; post on the "Discussion" board and you may get other ideas:

 

1. Buy one Combat Skill Level with the weapon and always use that CSL to Bounce the weapon back into your hand (see Champions, page 153).

 

2. Don't buy the weapon as a Focus, but using some other Limitation (Restrainable or Physical Manifestation might do the trick). That way it always returns to the hand since there's nothing to "take away." See, e.g., the Returning Throwing Weapon on page 36 of Gadgets And Gear."

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

 

 

So? Any other idea's of doing this????

 

Thanks....

[tgrandjean]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

These are two that come to mind...

1) slot in multipower: RKA: SFX being you throw the weapon and it returns.

2) HKA: ranged (+1/2), range limited by str (-1/2) and skill levels to bounce

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

You could just buy a RKA or EB too.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Perhaps also a Naked Advantage for Ranged for swords up to a certain amount of active points.

[xxwolverine1xx]

Did you read the question?

 

Never mind... Disregaurd I misunderstood....

[tgrandjean]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

*cough* Err?

The 'how the attack returns to my hand' is assumed by how you bought the attack. What's the problem? Are you asking for SFX advice? I'd have assumed you were asking for build advice?

[xxwolverine1xx]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

All input is welcome... Thank you...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

*decides he needs a custom emoticon. A straight face with a pair of blinking eyes. You could call it :thia:. It goes like this:*

 

*blink blink* Um... see my sig.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

A weapon that returns to your hand is merely the SFX of a basic attack power.

 

If you can always get that weapon that nothing needs to be done; Energy Blast XD6 and you can "fire" every phase as the weapon is always available. The fact that it's a spinning boomerang is merely special effects.

 

Now, if the weapon can be take away, destroyed or otherwise removed from your possesion for any appreciable period of time you have a few basic options to represent this Limitation:

 

1) Focus, Skill Levels Only To Bounce Weapon Back.

2) Physical Manifestation (the weapon has some componant that can be attack, but otherwise acts like a standard attack power).

3) Restrainable (it can be removed in some fashion, or easily prevent you from using it such as binding your arms or shooting it out of your hand).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Seriously, though, I think I see the disconnect here. There's two easy ways to do this.

 

1. You build it as an RKA slot in a Multipower. For example, if you've got Cap's Shield, his ability to throw the shield is an RKA, special effect, shield always returns to his hand. If you want to add some dramatic luck, "Make an Activation Roll, 14-. If Cap misses this roll, then his throw was off and the shield doesn't return." You can also put on another lim: "Shield Bounce: if the shield misses its target, the trajectory of the bounce is off and it does not return to the user." And that's an EASY way to handle it.

 

2. Like I said; while I doubt that Steve planned for my sig to be used like this, as an OIF it does "return to the Mighty hands of Thia Halmades if taken away." I think he meant I can't permanently lose my Ice Cream Cone, but you could also use it to represent a returning weapon (thus going directly AGAINST Steve's advice & building it as a Focus.

 

Does that clarify anything?

[xxwolverine1xx]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Ok, to better clarify. I want it to be a weapon. Not a SFX.

[Greywind]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

You've been given the pertinent builds. After that it ALWAYS comes down to the special effect of the attack as to how you flesh it out.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Ok' date=' to better clarify. I want it to be a weapon. Not a SFX.[/quote']

 

I think this may be a matter of interpretation. In HERO a particular build starts with the mechanical Power that you want to use. You decide what it's called, how it looks etc., but that doesn't change the mechanics of it. For example, an Energy Blast does a certain amount of Damage, interacts with Defenses in a particular way, regardless of whether it's a bolt of lightning or a LAW rocket or a thrown hammer. "Weapon" actually is one possible SFX for it. So if you want to create a thrown weapon that infallibly returns to its user in the same Phase, so that it's ready to be used again next Phase, it's perfectly acceptable to just make it an EB or RKA, since there's no need for a mechanic for recovering it after being thrown.

 

The other suggestions which my cohorts have posted to this thread are for adjusting the mechanics to perhaps better reflect how you want this specific weapon to work.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

If it, "magically," or otherwise always comes back to you, I'd go with one of the above solutions. If it physically bounces or flys back to you (like a boomerang, though in the real world case that's only going to be if a boomerang misses), then I'd build it with an Accessible Focus, and add an extra -1/4 because it is very Accessible (someone could conceivably grab it out of the air, trap it in an Entangle, or whatever, where this isn't normally a possibile for a gun, bow, etc.).

 

I suppose it could be done with a Recoverable Charge too, but in this case it feels a little too easily Recoverable IMO. YMMV.

[Frenchman]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Make an Activation Roll' date=' 14-. If Cap misses this roll, then his throw was off and the shield doesn't return.[/quote']

 

That feels like a burnout roll to me, with a generous GM.

 

As everyone has allready said, the weapon coming back to you, ready for use again is actually the default setting for a power build - I know it's wierd, and I had a couple of "Huh?" moments too.

It you want to differentiate it from other thrown weapons, then have the wielder buy a power skill (Boomerang Tricks or whatnot) to roll to see if he makes it come back - he may also be able to roll to make it attack them from behind or 'skip' it off multiple targets. Thats what my current Boomerang-wielding Islander player is doing, and he loves it so far. Course, he hasn't missed a roll to bring it in yet.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Ok' date=' to better clarify. I want it to be a weapon. Not a SFX.[/quote']

As Lord Liaden has pointed out ... "Weapon" is the SFX.

 

In hero there is no way around that. There is no "Weapon" Mechanic. There is merely a "Damage" Mechanic that you define as something, such as a Weapon.

 

So you've auotmatically stepped into the SFX Realm - can't be helped, that's what Hero is about.

 

First Rule - Reason From Effect

 

Like thus:

We want a weapon, say a boomerang. Ok, what does it do? I throw it (Ranged) and it hurts people physically (Physical Attack), afterwards it returns to my hand.

 

Ok, well modeling the Range Physical Attack is easy, we can use Energy Blast or Killing Attack - Ranged. These are the two Mechanics that allow us to caused Damage to someone from Range. That's the easy part.

 

Looking at the base Mechanics - they say nothing about what happens after the attack is made, all you know is you can use it Phase after Phase, as long as you have the END, to use it again. Taking the Boomerang model, we now need to know why. Well, at the basic level it's easy - the Boomerang just returns, because that's what they do.

 

But... we wish to model it more closely as a weapon, it needs to be a physical object someone can take away or break. The Attack Powers don't have that built it - it must be added as a Limitation of some sort.

 

We'll start with a Focus, since that seems an obvious choice. But if you throw a focus it doesn't come back automatically, it's thrown. This can be solved with a Combat Skill Level used to Bounce the attack back. Or, a kind GM can simply rule that the Boomerang automatically returns unless an outside force (such as someone grabbing it) interferes.

 

But let's look at some other options...

 

Restrainable - this means that the Attack Power acts normally, but some fairly common things can be done to make it impossible to use: first is a basic grab, you need your arms to throw the Boomerang, but if your Grabbed or Entangled you can't use them freely. Alternately it can be defined as being able to shoot the Boomerang out of your hand, or take it away until you can go pick it up. Every time you throw the Boomerang it automatically returns unless someone else does something specifically to prevent it from doing so.

 

Physical Manifestation - similar to Focus, but not as Limited. This means the Attack Power has some sort of physical aspect that can be broken to make the Power useless, such as a Boomerang. Again, the Boomerang automatically returns unless someone else does something specifically to prevent it from doing so.

--

 

I hope that helps clear up how we take the SFX of "Weapon" and look at various waysto model it using Powers and Limitations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

It you want to differentiate it from other thrown weapons' date=' then have the wielder buy a power skill (Boomerang Tricks or whatnot) to roll to see if he makes it come back - he may also be able to roll to make it attack them from behind or 'skip' it off multiple targets. Thats what my current Boomerang-wielding Islander player is doing, and he loves it so far. Course, he hasn't missed a roll to bring it in yet.[/quote']

 

The "boomerang comes back if it misses" aspect could also be applied by requiring a separate weapon familiarity for boomerangs. Only a proficient user can make the boomerang return to his hand. All those other abilities? I like the Power Skill approach. Skill levels could also work, especially if skipping is considered a bounce. Or buy some naked advantages (AE selective, for example, or Indirect for coming from behind).

 

BTW, I thought real combat boomerangs didn't return. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the ones that return were more toys/training boomerangs for the kids. Of course, that realism would not be consistent with the comics, or with most heroic fiction, where the boomerang always returns to the thrower's hand.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

BTW' date=' I thought real combat boomerangs didn't return. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the ones that return were more toys/training boomerangs for the kids. Of course, that realism would not be consistent with the comics, or with most heroic fiction, where the boomerang always returns to the thrower's hand.[/quote']

I believe that hunting boomerangs will return if they miss, and have an unobstructed path. If they hit they, of course, don't return as their momentum has been transfered into the target in hopes of killing it for dinner.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

I believe that hunting boomerangs will return if they miss' date=' and have an unobstructed path. If they hit they, of course, don't return as their momentum has been transfered into the target in hopes of killing it for dinner.[/quote']

 

Maybe that's what I recall - a differnce between hunting and war weapons.

[David Johnston]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Seriously, though, I think I see the disconnect here. There's two easy ways to do this.

 

1. You build it as an RKA slot in a Multipower. For example, if you've got Cap's Shield, his ability to throw the shield is an RKA, special effect,

 

Cap's shield doesn't seem to be very lethal. Probably an energy blast.

[Talon]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

I've used Inaccessible Focus for this -- assuming that the weapon will return in combat, but if removed from the character in other contexts, will not do so. (For example, D&D "returning" weapons, which come back to you during a fight; if you take the weapon after the fight, it becomes "yours" and now returns to you.)

[gojira]

Re: Returning weapons?

 

Ok' date=' to better clarify. I want it to be a weapon. Not a SFX.[/quote']

 

I was going to say the same thing as a Ghost Angel. A weapon *is* an SFX.

 

Look at how guns are costed out. 1d6 RKA, OAF, 8 charges. SFX is "it's a gun." Sheilds, magical hammers, boomerangs, etc. are all just the SFX of your power.

 

I know this can be hard to get your head around in Hero, but its fundamental to the way the system works. You're used to other systems where a weapon is a totally seperate thing. In Hero its not, powers, gear and weapons are the same.

 

In Hero you always reason from effect backwards. The effect is "its a gun" or "its a weapon I throw that returns." Then go from there. Put as much or as little realism as you like on it. At the simplest, a weapon that returns to your hand is just a Energy Blast or RKA, with no limitations. You always have it, and no one can take it away.

 

Take a look through your books and look at how other weapons and gear are bought. This might help you understand how to buy weapons properly. Look at too how some things are bought as realistically as possible, but some aren't, because the way a character uses a weapon isn't realistic (for example, Batman).

[xxwolverine1xx]

Ok, I have decided...

 

I have decided that it will be a shield to be used for blocking and also for throwing like Cap's. So I do not want to build it as a EB or RKA. So a focus that can return. So CL for bouncing?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ok, I have decided...

 

I have decided that it will be a shield to be used for blocking and also for throwing like Cap's. So I do not want to build it as a EB or RKA. So a focus that can return. So CL for bouncing?

If you want it to do damage you will need an Attack Power...

 

may I suggest:

 

40 The Shield: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2)

4u) Blocking: Armor (16 PD/16 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)

4u) Thrown: Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)

Total Cost: 48pts

 

3 +1 Combat Skill Level: With The Shield

 

The CSL can be used to Bounce the Attack back, or in a pinch add an OCV point.

[Robyn]

Thread Hijack

 

What if I wanted to build this as an Autofire, two attacks, second attack aims at the user? In other words, whoever throws the boomerang will see it miss or hit, but then it will continue on an intercept course for them . . .

 

Anyway, if I were wanting to put together something like this, could I cover the "catching" portion with just Disarm and some creative Combat Special Effects, or would I need to use a custom Advantage for Missile Deflection to state that the projectile didn't go anywhere on a successful roll?