Thoughts on the Speed Zone

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

The 22pt level seems useless unless combined with either the +1/4 half phase or +1/2 0 Phase action advantages.

 

However, at the 0 phase level (33 points) it seems better than the 52 point level with the base 2 SPD since normally 1 phase is used up getting to the speed zone.

 

Am I missing something?

Yes. Someone else already raised this question, and I answered it previously.

 

Basically the 22 point version you enter, get one additional Phase to actually do something in the SZ, then exit the SZ.

 

The 52 point version you enter, get one additional Phase to actually do something in the SZ, then stay in the SZ until the end of the SZ TURN at which time you exit the SZ.

 

The difference comes into play when there are OTHER characters that are ALSO in the SZ. With the 52 point version you maintain your DCV vs other people in the SZ thru the end of the TURN, with the 22 point version you are just as helpless as anyone else is once you leave the SZ.

 

The 52 point version is also a prerequisite for having more than 2 SZ SPD of course.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Ok, that answers the SZ side of the equation but the normal speed phase at which the speedster enters the SZ is normally used up at the 22 or 52 point levels. But with the zero phase quick entry advantage (33 points) it doesn't use up the normal phase which in some ways is still better than the base 52 point version.

 

I guess it's an unwritten rule that if you're going to spend 52 you might as well spend at least 54.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I don't believe the 22pt version works like the others. There is no point to buying the quick entry advantage on the 22pt version, since it seems to be assumed as part of the power description.

 

The character can enter the Speed Zone. Subjectively, he remains there for an Extra Phase, giving him one Phase's worth of Actions he can take

 

Reducing entry time has no effect, since you are only there for a single phase anyway and you get that single phase worth of Actions. So, the 22pt version is functionally equivalent to the 52pt version (assuming no increased subjective SPD or reduced entry time on the 52pt version), except for the subjective time spent in the SZ. You get the same number of actions either way.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

A single EXTRA Phase.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Actually, the way I read it, a 33 point investment is a viable option between 22 and 52 points.

 

So doing my best "Who's on First?" impression...

 

Say you have 2 speedsters, Bud and Lou, with slightly different Speed Zone powers:

 

Bud is the well thought out smart one so he has 54 points invested giving him 3 usable phases while in the Speed Zone.

 

Lou is the act first think later one so he has 33 point (22 with zero phase Quick Entrance advantage) giving him (correction) 2 usable phases in the Speed Zone.

 

If both have the same normal SPD and Lou has a higher DEX, who is on first?

 

I say Lou is "on first" because he gets at least 2 if not 3 actions before Bud's 3 in the Speed Zone? (1 zero phase entry Speed Zone phase PLUS his 'default' Speed Zone phase PLUS his normal phase of actions at his DEX).

 

Not bad for a savings of nearly 36 points (21 + 15 minus the cost of the extra DEX)

 

Thoughts?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Um...yeah man....did you check out the characters I posted?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Turbofist.HTML

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Hype.HTML

 

TF has the 33 points version, Hype has the 54 point.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Enter the Speed Zone at the basic level plus Quick Entry gets you two phases of actions according to Steve.

 

So, I don't have to re-write the Speed Zone version of Always.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

There you go, then. For 33pts, you can exceed the capabilities of someone who spent 52pts on the exact same power. I had hoped not to see this sort of blantant imbalance in the HERO System...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Enter the Speed Zone at the basic level plus Quick Entry gets you two phases of actions according to Steve.

 

So, I don't have to re-write the Speed Zone version of Always.

Yah. Not sure why there was any mystery about this?

[specks]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

With the addition of the speed zone rules, it just doesn't seem like it would be enjoyable to play any other character other than a speedster

 

What a bummer! :

 

Sounds like a game-breaker to me

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

In a campaign where the Metaverse optional rules (from Ultimate Metamorph) are in use, size changing characters suddenly have an overwhelming advantage in combat. However, there are campaigns where such rules become useful.

 

Ultimate Brick gave options for megascale throwing and megascale knockback, both of which favored bricks, both of them optional.

 

Now Ultimate Speedster has given a simple, direct way to simulate Speedster bits that previously required complicated VPP or MP slots. It's an optional rule, and it does favor Speedsters.

 

As long as you keep the risks of allowing it in mind and say "no" when appropriate, I don't see it as a problem.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Yah. Not sure why there was any mystery about this?

 

Perhaps because of the cost-benefit imbalance and the fact that HERO tries to be a balanced system?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Perhaps because of the cost-benefit imbalance and the fact that HERO tries to be a balanced system?

What was the cost benefit imbalance of people not understanding that the term "EXTRA PHASE" meant someone with the 22 point version of the Speed Zone did not enter and then immediately leave the Speed Zone without getting an action to actually do something but in fact actually got an EXTRA PHASE to do something with?

 

You know, what the post that I quoted in my response was all about?

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Some cost-benefit imbalance examples, dealing strictly with the cost of ETSZ:

 

22pts to do one phase worth of actions

33pts to do two phases worth of actions

52pts to do one phase worth of actions

54pts to do three phases worth of actions

56pts to do five phases worth of actions

58pts to do seven phases worth of actions

60pts to do nine phases worth of actions

62pts to do eleven phases worth of actions

78pts to do two phases worth of actions

81pts to do four phases worth of actions

82pts to do nine phases worth of actions

84pts to do six phases worth of actions

84pts to do nineteen phases worth of actions

86pts to do twenty-nine phases worth of actions

87pts to do eight phases worth of actions

88pts to do thirty-nine phases worth of actions

90pts to do ten phases worth of actions

90pts to do forty-nine phases worth of actions

92pts to do fifty-nine phases worth of actions

93pts to do twelve phases worth of actions

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

84pts to do nineteen phases worth of actions

92pts to do fifty-nine phases worth of actions

 

where do you get this level of powers ? sounds like global warming data to me.

 

those are quite high numbers ? how did you build nineteen phases ?

 

in my book SPD stops at 12.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

You get higher numbers by spending more time in the SZ. The 82pt ETSZ allows you to spend a full minute. For 112pts, you can spend five minutes. Even at lower SPDs, this translates into significantly more actions. In fact, it is cheaper still, because you don't have to spend quite as much on perception powers.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Some cost-benefit imbalance examples, dealing strictly with the cost of ETSZ:

 

22pts to do one phase worth of actions

33pts to do two phases worth of actions

52pts to do one phase worth of actions

54pts to do three phases worth of actions

56pts to do five phases worth of actions

58pts to do seven phases worth of actions

60pts to do nine phases worth of actions

62pts to do eleven phases worth of actions

78pts to do two phases worth of actions

81pts to do four phases worth of actions

82pts to do nine phases worth of actions

84pts to do six phases worth of actions

84pts to do nineteen phases worth of actions

86pts to do twenty-nine phases worth of actions

87pts to do eight phases worth of actions

88pts to do thirty-nine phases worth of actions

90pts to do ten phases worth of actions

90pts to do forty-nine phases worth of actions

92pts to do fifty-nine phases worth of actions

93pts to do twelve phases worth of actions

 

This isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. A speedster in the Zone who gets all of his SZ actions in a single turn is going to spend a subjectively long time at 0 DCV against a speedster who gets the same number of SZ actions spread out over several Turns.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If both speedsters are able to enter on the same phase (fairly likely) and both have ETSZ (not so likely), then both have their standard DCV/OCV and abilities while in the SZ as against each other. Characters with ETSZ acting on the same phase can choose to activate ETSZ when the first character does. Then they stay there until they all drop out, one by one, as determined by the amount of time they can spend in the SZ.

 

At that point, anyone still remaining in would get to attack the other at DCV 0. Since the character remaining would be taking advantage of the already-broken imbalances in the power (e.g. taking the 82pt level and a little additional SPD for hordes of actions), they're getting even more powerful for their lower point cost.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Then they stay there until they all drop out, one by one, as determined by the amount of time they can spend in the SZ.

 

At that point, anyone still remaining in would get to attack the other at DCV 0. Since the character remaining would be taking advantage of the already-broken imbalances in the power (e.g. taking the 82pt level and a little additional SPD for hordes of actions), they're getting even more powerful for their lower point cost.

 

What lower point cost? If a speedster can stay in the Zone longer than another speedster, he must have spent more on the power (assuming no Modifiers). Even if he can only act at SPD 2 each SZ Turn and the early-exiter is acting at SPD 12 each SZ Turn, the speedster with the longer stay spent a minimum of 20 points more for the privilege. And the benefit of having spent more is the aforementioned DCV loss suffered by those who drop out of the Zone before you.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

See above for examples of the lower point cost. One character does twelve actions and spends more than another character who does fifty-nine actions. Plus, you don't have to spend as much on the Speed Perception power if you go lower SPD with longer time in the SZ, which offers a significant cost benefit. Example...

 

Character #1: ETSZ (1 Turn, 52pts) + Attospeed (12 SPD, 10pts) + Attospeed Perception (normal sight only, 54pts) + SZ Sight (10pts) + SZ Touch (20 STR, 10pts) = 136pts for 11 Actions.

 

Character #2: ETSZ (1 Minute, 82pts) + Microspeed (4 SPD, 2pts) + Microspeed Perception (normal sight only, 18pts) + SZ Sight (10pts) + SZ Touch (20 STR, 10pts) = 122pts for 19 Actions.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Character #1: ETSZ (1 Turn, 52pts) + Attospeed ...= 136pts for 11 Actions.

Character #2: ETSZ (1 Minute, 82pts) + Microspeed (4 SPD, 2pts) + Microspeed ... = 122pts for 19 Actions.

 

Okay Fine. * dials phone *

 

I declare this a BLACK OP. No witnesses.

All traces of this book, characters, posters, and related thoughts and images

are to be CLEANED with extreme prejudice.

 

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Basically, I'm just looking to take this to a more natural progression without allowing strong deviations. Some solutions I'd offer to combat the problem include...

 

1. Eliminate the +1/4 and +1/2 advantages for reduced entry time. This is just not worth it except for the 22pt version. Applied to the 22pt version, a 33pt use of the power exceeds the capabilities of a 52pt use of the power.

 

2. Only allow the "1 Turn" version of the power. Again, we don't want the 22pt version and the 52pt version to be equal in benefit. Likewise, the power gets more more efficient as you move up the time chart from the "1 Turn" ideal. To prevent abuses at either side while properly recognizing the value of the power, the "1 Turn" version should be the only version available.

 

I guess I don't like the fact that one character can spend longer in the SZ than another, resulting in many more actions, while perceiving and moving slower within the SZ, solely by virtue of being able to spend more time in the SZ. In the grand scheme of things, everybody who enters the SZ spends 1 second there. If I'm perceiving and moving slower than another character, I shouldn't get more actions because I am spending the same amount of time in there when we're both spending 1 second in there. If I'm not really spending the same amount of time in there (as the rules state) and I'm moving faster, then I should have to pay for equivalently faster senses, not benefit from slower senses by paying less for the whole package.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

See above for examples of the lower point cost. One character does twelve actions and spends more than another character who does fifty-nine actions. Plus, you don't have to spend as much on the Speed Perception power if you go lower SPD with longer time in the SZ, which offers a significant cost benefit. Example...

 

Character #1: ETSZ (1 Turn, 52pts) + Attospeed (12 SPD, 10pts) + Attospeed Perception (normal sight only, 54pts) + SZ Sight (10pts) + SZ Touch (20 STR, 10pts) = 136pts for 11 Actions.

 

Character #2: ETSZ (1 Minute, 82pts) + Microspeed (4 SPD, 2pts) + Microspeed Perception (normal sight only, 18pts) + SZ Sight (10pts) + SZ Touch (20 STR, 10pts) = 122pts for 19 Actions.

#2 is the obvious choice vs. non-SZ characters. However, with respect to each other #1 should get ALL of his SZ actions as if #2 did NOT have SZ abilities.

 

#2 is so fast that normals can't see him move.

#1 is so fast that #2 can't see him move either.

 

or another way of seeing it.

 

#2 is like the first Bi/Tri-plane fighters used in WWI. There was nothing else like them before.

#1 is like the various Mono-plane fighters from WWII. How long they can stay up in the air was not as important as how fast they could go.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

#2 is the obvious choice vs. non-SZ characters. However, with respect to each other #1 should get ALL of his SZ actions as if #2 did NOT have SZ abilities.

 

#2 is so fast that normals can't see him move.

#1 is so fast that #2 can't see him move either.

 

This is absolutely, 100% logical based on how the abilites are described, but the Ultimate Speedster doesn't seem to indicate that combat within the Speed Zone actually works that way; it seems to assume that all characters in the Speed Zone can perceive each other.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

See above for examples of the lower point cost. One character does twelve actions and spends more than another character who does fifty-nine actions. Plus, you don't have to spend as much on the Speed Perception power if you go lower SPD with longer time in the SZ, which offers a significant cost benefit. Example...

 

Character #1: ETSZ (1 Turn, 52pts) + Attospeed (12 SPD, 10pts) + Attospeed Perception (normal sight only, 54pts) + SZ Sight (10pts) + SZ Touch (20 STR, 10pts) = 136pts for 11 Actions.

 

Character #2: ETSZ (1 Minute, 82pts) + Microspeed (4 SPD, 2pts) + Microspeed Perception (normal sight only, 18pts) + SZ Sight (10pts) + SZ Touch (20 STR, 10pts) = 122pts for 19 Actions.

 

You've added the ancillary abilities, which your previous point totals don't include, and that complicates things somewhat. Speed Perception is usable and useful outside the Speed Zone (it's just the Rapid Sense Modifier, extended to faster levels); Character #1 has sensory abilities Character #2 doesn't have.

 

Whether that balances the totals is debateable, but it shows that there's more going on with Speed Zone powers than a simple action total comparison.