Thoughts on the Speed Zone

[Truthsayer]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

It sounds great, but how do you keep the speed zone from unbalancing the game? If I can't think around that, I'd have a hard time allowing it in my campaign.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

It sounds great' date=' but how do you keep the speed zone from unbalancing the game? If I can't think around that, I'd have a hard time allowing it in my campaign.[/quote']

Thus the purpose of this thread, per the opening post.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I haven't read Ultimate Speedster yet, but I think I get the idea behind the Speed Zone. Very interesting concept, useful for some speedster designs, and yes, potentially very dangerous to allow to PCs.

 

However, in a world where the Speed Zone was a known quantity - like DC's Speed Force - I would expect the equivalents of Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes to have invested in "Suppress: EDM (Speed Zone)" gadgets and spells.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I haven't read Ultimate Speedster yet, but I think I get the idea behind the Speed Zone. Very interesting concept, useful for some speedster designs, and yes, potentially very dangerous to allow to PCs.

 

However, in a world where the Speed Zone was a known quantity - like DC's Speed Force - I would expect the equivalents of Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes to have invested in "Suppress: EDM (Speed Zone)" gadgets and spells.

Sure, but you kind of have to look at that and think....if for a villain to be creditable they practically must have the capacity to squelch a particular power / ability.....then clearly that ability is too powerful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Hmm... well, the point that was raised earlier on the thread still carries weight for me: if a villain's Defenses are too tough for the speedster to penetrate normally, getting attacks against an undefended target via the Speed Zone isn't really going to change the relative relationship of the speedster to the villain. Under those circumstances I don't think the villain's credibility would necessarily be impacted by whether he has such a power-squelching ability or not.

 

Ultimately it may come down to restricting some other abilities for characters who can also use the Speed Zone effect. Like lots of other elements of HERO, it's the especially efficient combinations that you have to watch out for.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Ultimately it may come down to restricting some other abilities for characters who can also use the Speed Zone effect. Like lots of other elements of HERO' date=' it's the especially efficient combinations that you have to watch out for.[/quote']I think this is a very good point. Most speedsters' powers derive from, well, their superspeed. But in the Speed Zone, they're no faster than anyone else. So sure, they can take a bunch of actions while no one else can move. But they can't use their powers in the process. This may not stop Speedy Guy from unheroically grabbing a knife and slitting a normal's throat, but it may very well prevent him from doing anything meaningful to Dr. Destroyer...

 

In game terms, it might be a workable ground rule that any ability to enter the Speed Zone must have the Lockout (-1/2) Limitation on it, so that no other powers with superspeed special effects can be used while the character is in the Speed Zone.

[nexus]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I haven't gotten the book yet' date=' but I'm already imagining a Midnighter style character who "enters the Speed Zone" and makes Find Weakness and Analyze Style rolls against all his opponents before they can even act...[/quote']

 

He could "Fight this battles billions of times, see his opponents every move, every weakness and know he stood no chance"?

 

Or something like that.

 

Seriously, that is a pretty cool idea. Still could be dangerously unbalancing. Can you take "Extra Time" in the Speed Zone? How many actions can you perform?

[Robyn]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Can you take "Extra Time" in the Speed Zone? How many actions can you perform?

 

Wouldn't you be forced to continue moving at ultrafast speeds to maintain your presence in the Speed Zone? Reductions to some abilities might be appropriate; blindness might be as well, stating that you're acting while their last known positions were still imprinted on your eyelids, but you can't examine them from other angles, take your time aiming at a tiny spot, or rush in from a distance. This last would be very useful in preventing the speedster from exiting the Speed Zone at a (safe) distance, resting to build up Endurance, then entering it again to approach the villains and beat them up with an attack that doesn't appear to come from anywhere. You're moving faster than the light, after all.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Wouldn't you be forced to continue moving at ultrafast speeds to maintain your presence in the Speed Zone?

 

I don't have the book, but SFX wouldn't necessarily dictate that. A speedster whose powers are based on time control might logically be able to take a nap while his opponents stand there frozen.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

You have to buy a specific SPD that dictates how many times per Turn you act in the Speed Zone, and you have to buy your Extra-Dimensional Movement in a way that defines how long you can remain in the Speed Zone. This is described in the book.

 

You also, unlike normal XDM, have to pay END for it every Phase while in the Speed Zone. So no, you can't Recover, take a nap, etc. This is also described in the book.

 

Perhaps it will be easier to discuss the Speed Zone rules when you've actually read them.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

You also, unlike normal XDM, have to pay END for it every Phase while in the Speed Zone.

 

And can you add Reduced Endurance to it?

 

Perhaps it will be easier to discuss the Speed Zone rules when you've actually read them.

 

If I could control how quickly DoJ shipped the book to me, I would, believe me.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

And can you add Reduced Endurance to it?

Officially yes. But NIMC.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Sounds like the construct has some balancing factors already built in. But I shouldn't put in any more opinions until I have the book in my hands. Sadly, since my game-book budget isn't unlimited and I'm already working on a backlog, that may take a while.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Hmm... well, the point that was raised earlier on the thread still carries weight for me: if a villain's Defenses are too tough for the speedster to penetrate normally, getting attacks against an undefended target via the Speed Zone isn't really going to change the relative relationship of the speedster to the villain. Under those circumstances I don't think the villain's credibility would necessarily be impacted by whether he has such a power-squelching ability or not.

 

Ultimately it may come down to restricting some other abilities for characters who can also use the Speed Zone effect. Like lots of other elements of HERO, it's the especially efficient combinations that you have to watch out for.

And as I stated in reponse to the previous post regarding the Speedsters ability to hurt such a target, that is completely irrelevant as it involves the interaction of a selection and scaling of certain combinations of powers or lack thereof between two characters that are completely seperate from and unaffected by the Speed Zone ability.

 

Or to put it another way, if the Speedster cannot hurt an opponent then that is true whether they are in the Speed Zone or not. Since its true on either side of the equation, it can be removed from the equation.

 

So:

 

If

Speedster + Attack = CannotHurtVillain

And

Speedster + Attack + Speed Zone = CannotHurtVillain

Then

Speed Zone is irrelevant to the basic equation.

 

 

And quite obviously, if the Speedster can hurt the villain then the addition of the Speed Zone, which acts as a force multiplier, magnifies further their ability to do so.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Can you take "Extra Time" in the Speed Zone?

 

Yes. The character can take any actions they normally could make based upon their current circumstances. Think of it like a Time Stop where the speedster gets to keep taking actions while everyone else is frozen in time and youre on the right track.

 

As Derek mentions you have to spend END each Speed Zone Phase like on a Constant power to maintain the EDM and thus cant make recoveries. You can however buy the EDM 0 END in the normal fashion.

 

How many actions can you perform?

 

You'll have to buy the book for the specifics, but between 1 and 12 -- you basically have to buy a Speed stat usable in the Speed Zone via a combination of an Adder on EDM and certain key multiples of Rapid senses.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Sounds like the construct has some balancing factors already built in. But I shouldn't put in any more opinions until I have the book in my hands. Sadly' date=' since my game-book budget isn't unlimited and I'm already working on a backlog, that may take a while. [/quote']

Personally, I'd bump the Ultimate Speedster to the front of the line. Its the best supplement DOJ has put out in several months IMO.

 

The balancing factors involved are that you have to buy 4 seperate powers to be Speed Zone enabled. A couple of senses, Trandim on STR, and a specially costed construct of EDM.

 

There is a considerable outlay of points involved. I've linked to three characters that have variations of the Speed Zone powers throughout this thread, so you can look at them to get an idea of what kind of point outlays.

 

Everything about the Speed Zone is heavily stop signed and speed bumped. Its very clear that its OPTIONAL and not only could seriously unbalance your campaign, its pretty likely to.

 

Interestingly the only sample character in the book that has access to the Speed Zone, Vector, does so via a VPP (though he does have the principle perception ability on the sheet), so it looks like Steve was very careful to not set a precedent of a published character with the abilities actually paid for and printed out on their sheet. Kinetic is mentioned as having it in the examples, but the updated write up of him doesn't actually.

 

The Speed Zone rules are well written, make a lot of sense, and are extremely cool from a purely mechanical stand point. I have no complaints about the construct of it and think its an interesting way to extend the system to handle something from comics specifically, and perhaps some other genres conditionally.

 

To put it simply, as a player I'm thinking "awesome!!!!", but as a GM I'm thinking "OMG!".

[Herolover]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I looked at the Speed Zone and thought, "Wow, that is so neat, no way any character I GM for or play will ever get it."

 

Really cool, but I, as many others, cannot find a way that would allow it to be balanced with other characters. The only way I would allow it is:

 

A) In an all Speedster Campaign. The problem here is that their main enemies, maybe their only enemies, would have to be speedsters as well.

 

I am GM'ing for a single player with a speedster.

 

C) If the character came up with some kind of limitations on entering the speed zone that made it a last minute, oh my lord kind of manuever.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

From what I've gathered from this thread so far...

 

It sounds like the END cost alone for entering and staying in the Speed Zone could easily be used to mitigate it's over-effectiveness. I like KS's suggestions with regards to attacks while in the SZ.

 

Before this book came out we could already recreate many SZ-like abilities via:

• Teleport UAA + AOE with various limitations.
  
• Several Overall Levels with Costs END (every 3 can decrease the time required to complete tasks by 1 spot on the Time Chart.)
  
• Auto-Fire attacks

These builds typically increased the speed of repetitive actions. They did not allow for an increase of active/reactive actions (some form of extra SPD). It sounds like the SZ does this and more and like many other powers (like Transform, Invisibility, NND's, etc..) has the potential to be unbalancing if not fully integrated with checks and balances in a campaign.

 

I am really looking forward to getting a copy asap.

[Roland]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I'll second Hyper-Man's suggestion that END costs could be used to mitigate the effectiveness of the Speed Zone. Don't allow Reduced END on SZ-related powers. Maybe even say that the SZ cancels the Reduced END advantage on powers that have it.

 

I don't have USP yet, but it sounds like I'll have to pick it up. Maybe I'll wait for The Ultimate Skill (USK?) and order them both at the same time.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If

Speedster + Attack = CannotHurtVillain

And

Speedster + Attack + Speed Zone = CannotHurtVillain

Then

Speed Zone is irrelevant to the basic equation.

But there's a lot more you could do to someone without having to get past their defenses. Entangle comes to mind immediately. Even without other powers, you simply wrap Doctor Happykitty in some steel chains, tie on some very heavy weights, and drop him in the ocean. Depending on what LS he has, you could send him into space, bury him under tons of rock/concrete/dirt, etc. It's easy to come up with things to do:

 

Remove all focuses

Entangle

Bury

Drown

Space

Dress up in clown suit/wrong sex clothing

etc.

 

Are there any Speed Zone rules to prevent these?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

But there's a lot more you could do to someone without having to get past their defenses. Entangle comes to mind immediately. Even without other powers, you simply wrap Doctor Happykitty in some steel chains, tie on some very heavy weights, and drop him in the ocean. Depending on what LS he has, you could send him into space, bury him under tons of rock/concrete/dirt, etc. It's easy to come up with things to do:

 

Remove all focuses

Entangle

Bury

Drown

Space

Dress up in clown suit/wrong sex clothing

etc.

 

Are there any Speed Zone rules to prevent these?

 

 

My point is that those who interject with "the speedster may not be able to hurt an opponent even if they are in the Speed Zone" as a balance contention are founding their argument on an irrelevancy. If the Speedster can't hurt an opponent while in the Speed Zone then they can't hurt them while out of the Speed Zone either.

 

Or to put it another way, the Speed Zone is either balanced or it isnt and that determination cannot be founded upon something a character can't do whether they are in the Speed Zone or not.

 

And of course, as you say, there are plenty of other things you can do even if you can't surmount an opponents defenses (whether you are in the Speed Zone at the time or not) that are effective.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Or to put it another way, the Speed Zone is either balanced or it isnt and that determination cannot be founded upon something a character can't do whether they are in the Speed Zone or not.

 

And of course, as you say, there are plenty of other things you can do even if you can't surmount an opponents defenses (whether you are in the Speed Zone at the time or not) that are effective.

But the things I listed are things you can do *only* if you are in the Speed Zone. Doctor Happykitty isn't going to just lie there and let you bury him under tons of rock if you both have your normal SPD/turn of actions. If he is completely immobile (at least relative to you) he can't stop stop you from removing his armor and whatever other gadgets he has. If you're in the Speed Zone (and he isn't), you've got plenty of time to go find a cement truck and a fork lift and anything else you'll need.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I look at Spd.Zone like I looked at Plastic Man.

 

I was allowed to play Plaz for a while. Plaz is gross.

Plaz can do many many things and he can't hardly be stopped

from doing it. So the limit I put on myself in Plaz's shoes

was to never do the same thing twice. Do something original

and do something funny.

 

If I as Plaz had catapulted the big bad guy into the bay

on every fight, the GM and players are gonna get real tired real fast.

 

 

So with the Spd.Zn. Keep it original, and don't be a redundant hog.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

But the things I listed are things you can do *only* if you are in the Speed Zone. Doctor Happykitty isn't going to just lie there and let you bury him under tons of rock if you both have your normal SPD/turn of actions. If he is completely immobile (at least relative to you) he can't stop stop you from removing his armor and whatever other gadgets he has. If you're in the Speed Zone (and he isn't)' date=' you've got plenty of time to go find a cement truck and a fork lift and anything else you'll need.[/quote']

What does that have to do with the passage of mine that you quoted?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

...Doctor Happykitty isn't going to just lie there and let you bury him under tons of rock if you both have your normal SPD/turn of actions. If he is completely immobile (at least relative to you) he can't stop stop you from removing his armor and whatever other gadgets he has.

 

If the armor and other gadgets are Inaccessible foci it takes at least 1 Turn to remove them regardless of whether you are out of or in the Speed Zone.

 

If you're in the Speed Zone (and he isn't), you've got plenty of time to go find a cement truck and a fork lift and anything else you'll need.

 

How are you moving the cement truck and fork lift? They are not going to move under their own power; you can't drive them if the motors aren't built with 'Speed Zone' powers as well. You can only move what you can physically lift while in the zone.

 

I don't even have the book yet and I can deduce that much from what has been described about the 'Zone' so far on this and other threads.