Thoughts on the Speed Zone

[Killer Shrike]

Picked up the Ultimate Speedster Sunday evening and read thru it.

 

It is all around an excellent supplement, and perhaps the most significant thing in the book is the Speed Zone.

 

My first impression was...well...slightly unprintable. It is such an overpowering ability that its nearly impossible for me to imagine ways to reliably keep people using it from being unstoppable.

 

On the other hand it is a really cool ability and does allow various speedster abilities from the source material to be modelled which would otherwise be prohibitively expensive or basically not possible.

 

I went thru some old characters and made updated versions of a few speedsters with the Speed Zone abilities and unsurprisingly they are every bit as overpowered as I thought they would be.

 

Thinking thru the situation, it all boiled down to this for me...I don't have a problem with the capabilities of the characters while in the Speed Zone EXCEPT for the ability to attack everyone else while they are at 0 DCV and unable to react.

 

Im thinking about implementing the Speed Zone as written but with out the ability to make attacks on people not in Speed Zone; or perhaps to make no more than one attack per foray into the zone.

 

 

Im also intrigued by the possibilities of the Speed Zone as a practical model for other abilities. The one that comes to mind most strongly is a Professor X style Astral Zone where two mentalists could duke it out in their minds at the speed of thought. Similarly it might make a good model for Cyberspace where things resolve at the speed of microprocessors. And so on.

 

 

Anyone else have any thoughts about the Speed Zone one way or another?

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

the speedster in my campaign looked at the book and said "No Way"

 

In our minds there's 2 types of speedsters.

 

1) Muscle based.

2) Speed-Force based.

 

Muscle based would be like Quicksilver. Superhuman balance, mutant speed, toughness and strength directed towards running and reflexes.

 

Speed based would be the Flash-types from DC.

 

since PJ the Demigod is simply hyper-athletic, many of the SFX in Ultimate Speedster make no sense for him.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

It is such an overpowering ability that its nearly impossible for me to imagine ways to reliably keep people using it from being unstoppable.

Then I'd say it's working exactly as it should. Characters like The Flash are usable in comics only because writers control what they do. Such a character in a game would be utterly unbalancing, as he or she would (and should, given their abilities as defined) be able to do almost anything they wished.

 

I view the Speed Zone as being akin to MegaScale in some ways. It exists and is useful for providing a framework for reasonably adjudicating some very powerful effects. It's not a play-balanced crunchy bit for everyone to add to their speedster characters.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

what exactly does the speed zone do? i don't have the book but i'd love to hear more about this

[specks]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

what exactly does the speed zone do? i don't have the book but i'd love to hear more about this

 

I think they want you to buy the book to find out

 

Picked up the Ultimate Speedster Sunday evening and read thru it.

 

It is all around an excellent supplement, and perhaps the most significant thing in the book is the Speed Zone.

 

My first impression was...well...slightly unprintable. It is such an overpowering ability that its nearly impossible for me to imagine ways to reliably keep people using it from being unstoppable.

 

On the other hand it is a really cool ability and does allow various speedster abilities from the source material to be modelled which would otherwise be prohibitively expensive or basically not possible.

 

I went thru some old characters and made updated versions of a few speedsters with the Speed Zone abilities and unsurprisingly they are every bit as overpowered as I thought they would be.

 

Thinking thru the situation, it all boiled down to this for me...I don't have a problem with the capabilities of the characters while in the Speed Zone EXCEPT for the ability to attack everyone else while they are at 0 DCV and unable to react.

 

Im thinking about implementing the Speed Zone as written but with out the ability to make attacks on people not in Speed Zone; or perhaps to make no more than one attack per foray into the zone.

 

 

Im also intrigued by the possibilities of the Speed Zone as a practical model for other abilities. The one that comes to mind most strongly is a Professor X style Astral Zone where two mentalists could duke it out in their minds at the speed of thought. Similarly it might make a good model for Cyberspace where things resolve at the speed of microprocessors. And so on.

 

 

Anyone else have any thoughts about the Speed Zone one way or another?

 

Check out this thread for ways to stop a speedster:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45814

 

Oh, and by the way just because the guy is DCV 0 (like say a brick) doesn't mean he'll get through his defenses

 

Boxcar: Me squash you like bug *Grunt*

 

Zoom Man: "I speed up into the speed zone and hit Boxcar multiple times"

 

GM: Okay he's DCV 0. But he has a 30 PD/30 ED hardend and a Damage Shield so you take part of the damage"

 

Or something like that anyway, I thnk you get the point

 

Zoom man: OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mister E]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I've always been a big fan of the Flash's Speed Force... and this Power sounds similar.

 

Then I'd say it's working exactly as it should. Characters like The Flash are usable in comics only because writers control what they do. Such a character in a game would be utterly unbalancing, as he or she would (and should, given their abilities as defined) be able to do almost anything they wished.

 

I view the Speed Zone as being akin to MegaScale in some ways. It exists and is useful for providing a framework for reasonably adjudicating some very powerful effects. It's not a play-balanced crunchy bit for everyone to add to their speedster characters.

I totally agree. It's a bummer, though, when your players want to play characters of this caliber. Would the Speed Zone Power be too much for a Galactic Champions campaign?

[SirViss]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Something that people should keep in mind that Block is based on OCV.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Something that people should keep in mind that Block is based on OCV.

You don't understand....people that are not in the Speed Zone don't have any ability to PERCEIVE or REACT to people that are in the Speed Zone, are at 0 OCV 0 DCV vs them, and people in ther Speed Zone can have potentially MANY actions that all resolve in normal time at their DEX after they exit the Zone.

 

So for instance this character:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Hype.HTML

 

could enter the zone at DEX 35 in Phase 2, take 3 actions doing anything he could normally do, then exits the zone. To those in the normal time frame suddenly everything he did while in the zone resolves simultaneously as soon as he exits the zone.

 

Its effectively a STOP TIME power relative to the speedster. The only people that can do anything about it are other characters with the ability to enter the Speed Zone.

 

Its a cool idea and it does allow some very true-to-comics stunts, but on the other hand in the hands of a player rather than the care of an author the character could be extremely unbalancing.

[SirViss]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I suspected that might be the case. I don't have the USP (yet), so I don't know the particulars of the Speed Zone, but all I saw mentionned was a lack of DCV. You should say that they have a lack of CV.

 

Of course you did mention that the targets would be

unable to react.

But, I often skim too fast to make such leaps of logic.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

While I haven't gotten TUS (darn up coming military training, grumble grumble), just from what I've read here I think I'll be very pleased with it.

 

This is exactly the kind of "move between the ticks of the clock" type of power that I thought Hero was missing.

 

I can't wait to pick it up at GenCon.

 

TB

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I ran a one player campaign using something like the speedzone. The PC was absurdly overpowered, but that was what I was trying for anyway. Overall, it worked out.

 

In a game with multiple players, it would be tough to keep the Speed Zoner from completely dominating every combat. Taking away the ability to attack while in the Zone would be a step towards making it more playable, but as with "Enter the Macroverse", I'd stick to standard builds.

 

That solo vs group variation fits the source material fairly well anyway; Flash class characters tend to be much more powerful in their solo titles than in group books.

[specks]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Is there anyway of allowing the speed force (without changing it as written) and not let it become the all-powerful power it seems to be?

 

I mean, like I said before, you may be able to hit your opponent alot eaiser, but you still may not be able to get through his opponents defenses.

 

That's my $.02 anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Is there anyway of allowing the speed force (without changing it as written) and not let it become the all-powerful power it seems to be?

 

I mean, like I said before, you may be able to hit your opponent alot eaiser, but you still may not be able to get through his opponents defenses.

 

That's my $.02 anyway.

The ability of a speedster to hurt or not hurt an opponent is not a function or lack of function on the part of the Speed Zone, it is a relative comparison made between two characters and is based completely upon the possession or lack of other powers and also in the case of possession comparative power levels.

 

Thus it is not a sound basis for pricing, power balancing, or any other kind of logical analysis.

 

Also, I didnt notice any specific verbage permitting or forbidding it, but the coup de gras rule would probably apply as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I ran a one player campaign using something like the speedzone. The PC was absurdly overpowered, but that was what I was trying for anyway. Overall, it worked out.

 

In a game with multiple players, it would be tough to keep the Speed Zoner from completely dominating every combat. Taking away the ability to attack while in the Zone would be a step towards making it more playable, but as with "Enter the Macroverse", I'd stick to standard builds.

 

That solo vs group variation fits the source material fairly well anyway; Flash class characters tend to be much more powerful in their solo titles than in group books.

Well, oddly the Speed Zone is very similar in implementation to the approach I took on "Turbofist" if you recall the particulars...and in fact I did a version of TF with minor access to the Speed Zone here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Turbofist.HTML

 

Of course the bundled speed aspect of the Speed Zone is the key difference and is quite a bit more powerful.

 

 

Compltely off topic, as it happens I was planning to revisit the Mill Men version of Legend sometime this week and apply some stuff from the Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Metamorph, and Ultimate Speedster to him. Most particularly I was going to address his Running usable as Flight since the Ultimate Speedster gives specific rules on the proper way to do that, and I was going to toy with consolidating some of his abilities into a semi-cosmic VPP. I can see Legend as being able to tap into the Speed Zone in some fashion due to his unusual nature, even if it were just a perception upgrade to his Eyes of Perfect Clarity.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Compltely off topic, as it happens I was planning to revisit the Mill Men version of Legend sometime this week and apply some stuff from the Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Metamorph, and Ultimate Speedster to him. Most particularly I was going to address his Running usable as Flight since the Ultimate Speedster gives specific rules on the proper way to do that, and I was going to toy with consolidating some of his abilities into a semi-cosmic VPP. I can see Legend as being able to tap into the Speed Zone in some fashion due to his unusual nature, even if it were just a perception upgrade to his Eyes of Perfect Clarity.

 

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with. Considering how the Mill Men version worked, some odd dimensional and speed tricks might be interesting.

[specks]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If I'm reading you correctly sounds like it should be banned outright. Or the other alternative you mentioned:

 

Im thinking about implementing the Speed Zone as written but with out the ability to make attacks on people not in Speed Zone; or perhaps to make no more than one attack per foray into the zone.

 

Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose of what it was mean't for? Isn't there an alternative to what you have mentioned above without diluting it.

 

-How about a speedster villian with same powers?

-Maybe something lurks in the speed force that's a danger to anybody inside it?

 

Sorry for the rant just wanted the alternatives out there.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Well, oddly the Speed Zone is very similar in implementation to the approach I took on "Turbofist" if you recall the particulars...and in fact I did a version of TF with minor access to the Speed Zone here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Turbofist.HTML

 

Of course the bundled speed aspect of the Speed Zone is the key difference and is quite a bit more powerful.

 

Wow. That really takes an already powerful build to another level. Repped.

[Utech]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Would it be possible to just limit the amount of damage a speedster could do in the Speed Zone?

 

Mechanic: attacks made in the Speed Zone do 75% less damage than attacks made out of the Speed Zone.

 

Advantage: Attack does 50% less damage in the Speed Zone +1/2

Advantage: Attack does 25% less damage in the Speed Zone +3/4

Advantage: Attack does normal damage in the Speed Zone +1

[Robyn]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

-Maybe something lurks in the speed force that's a danger to anybody inside it?

 

Or perhaps the Speed Zone itself is the danger to those inside it - I like the implication from Flash's words in JLU, "I think . . . if I go there again . . . I won't be able to come back."

 

For every attack made, there is a roll (cumulative penalty) to see if the speedster can never return. Not character death, just, unable to return to their plane of existence.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Wow. That really takes an already powerful build to another level. Repped.

Thanx, but the Speed Zone version of Hype is even worse....much worse.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

....

 

Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole purpose of what it was mean't for? Isn't there an alternative to what you have mentioned above without diluting it.

Only if you think the purpose it was meant for was to launch a bunch of free attacks against completely helpless opponents.

 

-How about a speedster villian with same powers?

You mean like this?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Breakneck_SpeedZone.HTML

 

 

-Maybe something lurks in the speed force that's a danger to anybody inside it?

 

Sorry for the rant just wanted the alternatives out there.

 

 

Eh...maybe that might work for some people but its too "monster under the bed" for my tastes.

 

 

I look at it this way...if characters couldnt attack or could only attack once per foray would it still be worthwhile to have the Speed Zone powers at the current pricing structure?

 

I would say "yes".

 

There are still plenty of things you could pull off using the Speed Zone other than attacking to make it a very cool and worthwhile ability to have, but more importantly a speedster that didnt have it would still be viable.

 

As it stands now a speedster that lacks the ability to enter the Speed Zone in a campaign that allows it is not really a true speedster...they will always be at a disadvantage vs speedsters of roughly equivalent points that can enter the Speed Zone because the ability to enter the zone and rip loose with an array of uncontested attacks vs people that are effectively statues is absolutely huge.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

There are still plenty of things you could pull off using the Speed Zone other than attacking to make it a very cool and worthwhile ability to have, but more importantly a speedster that didnt have it would still be viable.

 

I haven't gotten the book yet, but I'm already imagining a Midnighter style character who "enters the Speed Zone" and makes Find Weakness and Analyze Style rolls against all his opponents before they can even act...

[specks]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Thanks KS!

 

It all comes down GM control. I was just looking for viable controls to prevent abuse like you mentioned earlier.

 

I know someone who didn't end up reading the rules right is going to try to make super "I-can-enter-the-zone-gut-Doctor-Destroyer-like-a-fish-and-get-out-with-my-***-intact" speedster. That's the abuse I'm thinking about.

 

Better yet, enter the zone, dress Doc D like a clown and disappear before he knows what happened.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

using Ex-Dim for speedy tricks is fine as long as the speedster pays the

trans-dim advantage for Everything he uses thereafter.

 

plus, there's another equalizer....

 

things live in or near the speed zone.

imagine a champs version of hounds of tyndalos.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

using Ex-Dim for speedy tricks is fine as long as the speedster pays the

trans-dim advantage for Everything he uses thereafter.

 

plus, there's another equalizer....

 

things live in or near the speed zone.

imagine a champs version of hounds of tyndalos.

 

Go buy the book -- its a fantastic all around supplement and probably the best "Ultimate" since the Ultimate Martial Artist -- and read the Speed Zone rules.

 

To your direct point, using the Speed Zone rules the character explicitly only has to buy Transdimensional for their STR and this allows them to affect targets in the normal speed world normally (page 259 under Attacks Against The Normal-Speed World).

 

 

Look, Im not an alarmist sort of person. I regularly allow things in my game that just about no other GM on the face of the earth would allow. I don't have a problem with letting characters be powerful so long as the builds are clean, the powers have well defined SFX, it's appropriate to the character's shticks, and there are reasonable checks and balances in place.

 

As written the Speed Zone is both very cool and also easy to abuse on a scale far beyond most of the usual ways to break the system, IMO.