Thoughts on the Speed Zone

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Actually' date=' and again, no you do not. The book explicitly says all you need to do is buy an NPA Transdimensional for your STR and that covers you to use ALL of your other powers into the normal world.[/quote']

Which is up to the GM. Though I have to say, if you were looking to nerf SZ powers a bit, that'd be one heck of a way to do it.

 

As a note along that line of thought, having finally read TUS, I have to agree that SZ can be unbalancing, as anything can be. Heck, it's even more unbalancing than many other abilities - though the rapid increase in endurance cost limits it seriously (as a note, I would never let a character take Reduced Endurance on their EtSZ in anything resembling a normal-scale supers game, unless it was a part of Charges).

 

Hmm... that actually gives me an idea for a character... but that's for later.

 

On the subject of nerfing SZ, I actually like the idea of a "Hound of Tindalos" type critter, some sort of extradimensional alien that exists within the hyper-speed environment of the Speed Zone and normally can't interact with the real world - but thinks that the occasional speedster who comes to visit tastes mighty good!

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

A while back, I ran a one player campaign using EDM as Time Stop.

 

The character could step "out of time", and then use a VPP full of Transdimensional powers to do more or less what she liked to her helpless targets. She occasionally had to deal with foes who could also move in Out Time, but was more or less invincible when facing anyone else unless taken by surprise.

 

It was a good campaign, and the player enjoyed it.

 

Looking at the Speed Zone, such a character would be slightly more expensive, slightly more limited, and easier to fine tune using these rules.

 

I still don't think she'd be much fun in a group. Players will not want to sit around while the speedster finishes almost every combat by himself.

[nexus]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

A while back, I ran a one player campaign using EDM as Time Stop.

 

The character could step "out of time", and then use a VPP full of Transdimensional powers to do more or less what she liked to her helpless targets. She occasionally had to deal with foes who could also move in Out Time, but was more or less invincible when facing anyone else unless taken by surprise.

 

It was a good campaign, and the player enjoyed it.

 

 

Wow, I guess the campaign was more focused on drama and noncombat activities than fights?

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Wow' date=' I guess the campaign was more focused on drama and noncombat activities than fights?[/quote']

 

It was very much a soap opera, New Mutants meets Chronicles of Amber.

 

On the surface, it was a typical Supers setting. Unknown to the general public, almost all Supers belonged to particular bloodlines, clans that competed with one another for power and influence. The character was a student at New Hope Academy, a small private boarding school catering to the children of the super rich and the more than human. Conflicts were mainly on the teen angst and family politics levels, though there were Super battles.

 

The campaign went fairly well, but it could have used more humor.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Which is up to the GM. Though I have to say, if you were looking to nerf SZ powers a bit, that'd be one heck of a way to do it.

In as much as EVERYTHING is up to the GM, sure. However as the SZ is actually PRESENTED as working you don't have to buy Transdim on all your powers that you want to use on the normal speed world while in the SZ -- you only have to buy an NPA for your Strength and it covers everything else. Read page 259 of the book.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Actually' date=' and again, no you do not. The book explicitly says all you need to do is buy an NPA Transdimensional for your STR and that covers you to use ALL of your other powers into the normal world.[/quote']

 

what's your cite for that, please ?

 

obviously I see other sections...

 

Thanks.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

what's your cite for that, please ?

 

obviously I see other sections...

 

Thanks.

 

US, p.259, "Attacks against the normal speed world." By default, Speed Zone Touch covers all use of the speedster's powers on the normal world. However, the GM may choose to require Transdimensional.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Well as a GM with a speedster in the game,

I guess during my first reading

my eyes only locked onto the sentence after:

 

" . . . should require TransD. for any other attack . . . "

 

which I like.

 

I mean the ability to zip out of time and put a guy in handcuffs

and toss his blaster in the sewer (before he reacts) is fine enough.

 

I don't think I'd throw in the energy blast and the TK for free with it.

[nexus]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

It was very much a soap opera, New Mutants meets Chronicles of Amber.

 

On the surface, it was a typical Supers setting. Unknown to the general public, almost all Supers belonged to particular bloodlines, clans that competed with one another for power and influence. The character was a student at New Hope Academy, a small private boarding school catering to the children of the super rich and the more than human. Conflicts were mainly on the teen angst and family politics levels, though there were Super battles.

 

The campaign went fairly well, but it could have used more humor.

 

That does sound pretty cool.

[tesuji]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

On the subject of nerfing SZ, I actually like the idea of a "Hound of Tindalos" type critter, some sort of extradimensional alien that exists within the hyper-speed environment of the Speed Zone and normally can't interact with the real world - but thinks that the occasional speedster who comes to visit tastes mighty good!

 

I would ponder how this helps a lot of the issues, or how best to reflect this.

 

If you turn it into an actual encounter in the SZ, and an actual combat, you get the worst effects of the speed zone. everyone sits while you and the speedster resolve this one-on-one conflict and it doesn't even help the rest against the bad guys.

 

if you run it as an abstracted combat, an activation roll and side effects, where the result of a "beast encounter" is the speedster vs beast fight is abstracted and the side effects of "wounds" and "lost endurance" are described as "the conflict before he was able to escape" then its just a matter of a dice roll to "activate the power" (succes = entered safe speed zone area and failure = found beast in speed zone and managed to escape with your life) then it at least doesn't for these "failures" take more time.

 

Still leaves everyone sitting on their hands when the power works tho.

 

honestly, sounds like a fairly interesting power for a solo game starring a speedster, but not much use for more group oriented games with a mix of speedsters and others. of course, as the special power in a solo game, i don't need a fancy write up full of extra dimensional movement costs and adders and transdimensional advantages on this trait and that. Its not going to need detail and balancing attempted by points if there is only the one character.

[casualplayer]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

This sounds as cheesy and boring as Desolid/STR Affects Real World or armchair psychics who fight crime in their pajamas. I'll have to look at this firsthand, but it smells like HERO just shot themselves in the foot. Game systems never get this kind of munchkin genie back in the bottle.

 

Is this something that can be incorporated into some new version of the Rule of X, or are GMs going to get real tired of seeing this power build on a character sheet and vetoing it? Wait til there's an open game at a convention and everyone shows up with a Speed Zone character!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If you ever get the chance to see The Infinite Worlds of H.G.Wells, a Hallmark miniseries that finally came to DVD last year, the first story is based on Wells' story of The New Accelerator. It has a fantastic take on what we're calling The Speed Zone in action. Imagine the real danger of the Speed Zone, never getting out...

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

This sounds as cheesy and boring as Desolid/STR Affects Real World or armchair psychics who fight crime in their pajamas. I'll have to look at this firsthand, but it smells like HERO just shot themselves in the foot. Game systems never get this kind of munchkin genie back in the bottle.

 

Is this something that can be incorporated into some new version of the Rule of X, or are GMs going to get real tired of seeing this power build on a character sheet and vetoing it? Wait til there's an open game at a convention and everyone shows up with a Speed Zone character!

 

It's optional (think Enter the Macroverse from UMM) and easy to rule out of bounds in a campaign. I don't see it as much more unbalanced than a fair number of other "you win the game" constructs. That said, I won't be allowing it for PCs except in solo games.

[specks]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I'm really surprised Steve Long hasn't jumped in on this issue yet. He could really clear up alot of things. It sounds like it's no fun at all to play the game (or for that matter play anything but a speedster) if you allow the speed zone and it's "BOOM" you squash the enemy and win the campaign.

 

I could be reading alot more into this than I am but this issue is a bit disturbing.

[casualplayer]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

It's optional (think Enter the Macroverse from UMM) and easy to rule out of bounds in a campaign. I don't see it as much more unbalanced than a fair number of other "you win the game" constructs. That said' date=' I won't be allowing it for PCs except in solo games.[/quote']

 

No, I get that. I don't allow Find Weakness (although you can emulate it w/ Drain, DCs or levels) in my games. It just smells like one of those abilities that is going to show up on every character sheet to some extent, like Damage Reduction and Combat Luck. If everyone wants it, if every character concept skews towards it then it's too good and shouldn't have been added as written.

 

I'm sure they put a stopsign next to the write-up. Maybe the Rule of X has to incorporate a "One Stopsign Power Only" addendum?

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If everyone wants it' date=' if every character concept skews towards it then it's too good and shouldn't have been added as written.[/quote']

 

There's a lot of truth to this. There are some powers that change the Hidden Template.

 

I'm sure they put a stopsign next to the write-up. Maybe the Rule of X has to incorporate a "One Stopsign Power Only" addendum?

 

I don't use the rule of X, but that may be an option.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Having read the Speed Zone, my understanding was that it was never intended as a Game Breaker, and it's absolutely optional. It's intended to represent things that can't be done under the normal rules - to color in the pieces that people have been missing.

 

Of course the first thing you look at is combat implications, but that's just one element of this. A little Extra Time (yes, I said "Extra Time" and "Speedster" - as in, how long it takes them to get "up to speed" to actually break out) goes a long way towards minimizing the effect, as is Extra END and so on.

 

For those who don't know, I don't run Supers games. The same rules can be applied to a Matrix style conversion though, and a good way of representing the digital speed at which the internet moves for combat purposes. Shadowrun introduced a Matrix mechanic that never quite worked - this would simulate it VERY nicely. There's more here than just "oh no, Steve broke speedster classes."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

No' date=' I get that. I don't allow Find Weakness (although you can emulate it w/ Drain, DCs or levels) in my games. It just smells like one of those abilities that is going to show up on every character sheet to some extent, like Damage Reduction and Combat Luck.[/quote']

Kind of an odd choice; in all the many Champions / supers games I've run and played in rarely more than one (if any) characters had Find Weakness. It is powerful, but it is also difficult to use and subject to total failure.

 

Damage Reduction is only truly desireable in high point level campaigns, and in such campaigns it is usually entirely appropriate.

 

Combat Luck is just limited resistant defense, and practically all characters in all genres have at least a little of that anyway.

 

If youre going to pick powers that are cheap and easily abused, why not go for Invisibility and Desolid, both of which are very affordable and show up in way more builds than they probably should?

 

 

If everyone wants it, if every character concept skews towards it then it's too good

Probably.

and shouldn't have been added as written.

Not necessarily.

 

I'm sure they put a stopsign next to the write-up. Maybe the Rule of X has to incorporate a "One Stopsign Power Only" addendum?

Personally I don't use a "rule of X"; its a faulty concept to begin with in my opinion. The GM should be looking at each character individually and weighing their capabilities against the nature of the campaign and the other characters in it, not trying to fill out a flow chart to determine the character's suitability.

 

But that's just me.

 

As with everything else in the HERO System there are ways to use the Speed Zone in a fashion that is fun and fair and enriches the game, and there is a way to use it that is none of the above, and a few ways in between.

 

My main concern, as stated in previous threads, isn't about the Speed Zone itself, so much as it is essentially a massive force multiplier. When added to a speedster that is already very capable it magnifies that character's power tremendously. When added to a speedster that is not very capable, not so much.

 

Personally Im going to try out the 1 attack per SZ Turn rule. This allows Speedsters to use the SZ to manuever around, do "flavor" speedster tricks, save people, and show off their shtick, but not become one man wrecking crews able to plow through an entire opposing group or finish encounters entirely singlehandedly.

 

When constrained to one attack per SZ Turn I think the point and END costs of the SZ make it a powerful option, but not the ONLY option with which to solve every problem.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Potential brokenness aside, Speed Zone made me happy because it allows me to simulate my current nerdy obsession, Kamen Rider Kabuto without giving him SPD 12, costs END.

In Kabuto, the heroes, while in their second armor form, can go into a state called "Clock Up", where they move so fast that everything else is frozen. Of course, the bad guys can do this too. On that note, it's also like Cyborg 009, where their leader, and a lot of villains, could accelerate to speeds like that.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

In theory, in a very-high powered campaign, the Speed Zone could get ridiculous. In a standard 350pt game (and anything less, of course) its effects would be mitigated by the costs involved. The lowest cost for the Speed Zone is...

 

Enter the Speed Zone; Basic; Total Cost = 22pts

Speed Perception; Millispeed; Normal Vision Only; Total Cost = 9pts

Speed Zone Sight; Total Cost = 10pts

Speed Zone Touch; 20 STR; Total Cost = 10pts

 

Total Speed Zone Investment = 51pts

 

Either the 22pt and 52pt allow the same number of actions (assuming Millispeed) or the 22pt version doesn't allow any actions at all, because your first phase is always taken up with entering the SZ. By the wording of the power on page 257, I'm inclined to think that both get one effective action (assuming no other changes). Yikes. Thankfully, it's easy enough to buy some extra SPD in the SZ.

 

Bumping it up to Microspeed gives you three complete actions (1 used to enter the SZ) and costs a pittance of 2pts. However, you need to use at least the 52pt version of the SZ, so you're up to 54pts there. Then you have to pay extra for the sensory portion, which changes Perception to 18pts. The total point cost is now 92pts. It costs 5 END to enter + movement + (up to) 3 for each use of STR.

 

What do you get for those 92pts? You get three extra actions (could just buy 3 SPD for 30pts at no END cost). You get to attack targets at 0 DCV (or buy 6 levels in HTH Combat for 30pts, which generally combine with natural OCV to get essentially the same effect for no END cost). The only real advantage is that you get all three of those actions at once. You'd spend 92pts for that? You can't even cause more than 4d6 damage without some outside effect in play or additional cost.

 

Okay, how about something faster? Make it Attospeed (1 Turn) and you spend 62pts on the base power and 54pts on perception. That takes you up to a total cost of 136pts. Now you get 11 extra actions in the SZ. Again, you're spending a LOT of points here and the benefits are solid, but lower damage is still an issue. So where's the problem?

 

If you choose to go slower (Microspeed), but spend more time in the SZ (1 minute) you get a total of 19 extra actions for 84pts + 18pts + 10pts + 10pts = 122pts. For another 30pts (taking it up to 5 minutes), you can get 99 extra actions for entering the SZ. The breaking point for the power lies in how it handles the time chart, because it becomes progressively more efficient (point-wise) to spend longer in the SZ.

 

My advice to GMs handling this power is to never let it go beyond the "1 Turn" mark. The costs involved in using the power up to that point are appropriate for the gains realized and, in some cases, too high.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

In theory' date=' in a very-high powered campaign, the Speed Zone could get ridiculous. In a standard 350pt game (and anything less, of course) its effects would be mitigated by the costs involved. The lowest cost for the Speed Zone is...[/quote']

 

I've posted two 350 point Speed Zone users in this thread, neither one particularly min-maxed by the standards of my campaigns.

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Something that may not be understood correctly is the difference between the 22pt and 52pt levels.

 

Some of the sample characters posted appear to ignore a critical distinction. The 22pt level expressly limits you to one phase in the SZ. That's it. You can't buy the 22pt ETSZ and then increase the SZ level (SZL) to get more than one phase worth of actions. The 52pt level gives you a full turn in the SZ, which allows you to use the additional SPD for additional actions.

 

Technically, the additional SPD would have a minor effect on the 22pt ETSZ: you'd be able to move earlier than someone else in the SZ who had a slower SZL.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Something that may not be understood correctly is the difference between the 22pt and 52pt levels.

 

Some of the sample characters posted appear to ignore a critical distinction. The 22pt level expressly limits you to one phase in the SZ. That's it. You can't buy the 22pt ETSZ and then increase the SZ level (SZL) to get more than one phase worth of actions. The 52pt level gives you a full turn in the SZ, which allows you to use the additional SPD for additional actions.

 

Technically, the additional SPD would have a minor effect on the 22pt ETSZ: you'd be able to move earlier than someone else in the SZ who had a slower SZL.

 

The 22pt level seems useless unless combined with either the +1/4 half phase or +1/2 0 Phase action advantages.

 

However, at the 0 phase level (33 points) it seems better than the 52 point level with the base 2 SPD since normally 1 phase is used up getting to the speed zone.

 

Am I missing something?

[bwdemon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

With the 22pt version, you just get 1 phase. You don't have to buy the half-phase or 0 phase entry modifier. All you get is that single phase in the SZ to do with as you please, though, so any SPD enhancement has no effect on the number of actions you take while in the SZ.

 

With the 52pt version, you get 1 turn. Without anything else (e.g. SZL increase, entry time reduction), that means you'll have a single phase in the SZ to do with as you please. This sucks, but it's really cheap to buy additional actions.

 

So, unfortunately, the 22pt and 52pt levels are exactly the same, absent any additions to the 52pt level. However, the two are functionally equal at this point and the 22pt version cannot be better.

 

At least, this is how I understand it.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

With the 22pt version, you just get 1 phase. You don't have to buy the half-phase or 0 phase entry modifier. All you get is that single phase in the SZ to do with as you please, though, so any SPD enhancement has no effect on the number of actions you take while in the SZ.

 

With the 52pt version, you get 1 turn. Without anything else (e.g. SZL increase, entry time reduction), that means you'll have a single phase in the SZ to do with as you please. This sucks, but it's really cheap to buy additional actions.

 

So, unfortunately, the 22pt and 52pt levels are exactly the same, absent any additions to the 52pt level. However, the two are functionally equal at this point and the 22pt version cannot be better.

 

At least, this is how I understand it.

 

Kind of. Those extra 30 points allow you to upgrade meaningfully when you get to the 1 Turn level.

 

You may be right about Quick Entry. The 22 point level specifically gives you an "Extra Phase" in the Zone and a Phase worth of actions (p.257). I read that as meaning two phases of actions if you take Zero Phase Entry. I'll ask Steve.