Thoughts on the Speed Zone

[nexus]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If the armor and other gadgets are Inaccessible foci it takes at least 1 Turn to remove them regardless of whether you are out of or in the Speed Zone.

 

You could spend a "subjective" turn in the Speed Zone and remove them, IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

You could spend a "subjective" turn in the Speed Zone and remove them' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

And isn't there already a speedster ability in the USPD that can already effectively do this trick in one phase without use of the "Zone" via the power Dispell? (I'd quote pages but my copy is on loan).

[nexus]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

And isn't there already a speedster ability in the USPD that can already effectively do this trick in one phase without use of the "Zone" via the power Dispell? (I'd quote pages but my copy is on loan).

 

Except your target is not at 0 DCV, Power Defense would hinder it and it has a chance to fail (You don't roll enough on the Dispel). The Speed Zone version would work more or less automatically.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Except your target is not at 0 DCV' date=' Power Defense would hinder it and it has a chance to fail (You don't roll enough on the Dispel). The Speed Zone version would work more or less automatically.[/quote']

 

The ultimate deciding factor on whether either method works is the GM.

 

If Flash is facing Batman, removing his Utility Belt is no big deal either way. (AOE 1 Hex would take care of the OCV part btw.)

 

If Flash is facing Iron-Man however, he might not be able to disassemble the armor either way since the focus is effectively a single object until powered down. Power defense may or may not be part of the build. How much time Flash spends in or out of the "Zone" isn't going to change what he can do to the armor that much either way.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

What does that have to do with the passage of mine that you quoted?

I would say the same thing to you. You were saying that things you can do in or out of the Speed Zone don't make it balanced or unbalanced, and things you can't do in or out of the Speed Zone don't make it balanced or unbalanced. You seem to be ignoring all the things (such as I posted) that you can do in the Speed Zone, but not out of it.

 

I'm just wondering if there are rules given to keep it balanced. I don't own TUSp, yet.

 

And if you can't move a cement truck in the Speed Zone, can you move *any* inanimate object? Will non-solid matierials, such as air and water, part for the movement of your body? How much semi-science are we trying to inject into this completely implausable bit of fantasy?

[nexus]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

The ultimate deciding factor on whether either method works is the GM.

 

If Flash is facing Batman, removing his Utility Belt is no big deal either way. (AOE 1 Hex would take care of the OCV part btw.)

 

Bats can still dive for cover. In the Speed Zone he can do nothing at all. With the "real world" version you still technically have to roll to attack (18s happen) and you can still not roll enough on the dispel for it to work. The Speed Zone effect also takes effectively one Phase for everyone else not in the Speed Zone and when the Speedster comes out of it, he still has the rest of the normal phases left.

 

If Flash is facing Iron-Man however, he might not be able to disassemble the armor either way since the focus is effectively a single object until powered down. Power defense may or may not be part of the build. How much time Flash spends in or out of the "Zone" isn't going to change what he can do to the armor that much either way.

 

Everything is up to gm fiat in the end. But going by the hard mechanics a Inaccessible focus can be removed in a turn if the owner is incapacitated. To characters in the Speed Zone characters are incapicitated. They were unable to react to or even perceive the attacks.

 

If the Speedster can use "Some Disassembly Required" to remove a character's armor, then he should, logically be able to spend a "turn" in the Speed Zone and remove it. The Speed Zone version is way more effective. The point is the Speed Zone is a very very powerful effect not to be used lightly. That is all I'm saying.

 

Possible thread derail but its debatable of Iron Man's Armor is a OIF or OIHID.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I would say the same thing to you. You were saying that things you can do in or out of the Speed Zone don't make it balanced or unbalanced' date=' and things you can't do in or out of the Speed Zone don't make it balanced or unbalanced. You seem to be ignoring all the things (such as I posted) that you can do in the Speed Zone, but not out of it.[/quote']

 

Im not ignoring anything. The later has nothing to do with the former.

 

The post you quoted was a response to people saying the Speed Zone might be balanced if a particular Speedster was unable to surmount a particular opponents defenses because their attacks were too weak; my point was that its not relevant one way or the other and has nothing to do with the Speed Zone as it is true in both the Speed Zone and normal speed resolution. The point being that the Speed Force effect must stand alone for consideration of balance and not rely on the circumstances of other ability interactions to balance itself.

 

Either you've missed my point or you think Im saying something that Im not.

 

 

I'm just wondering if there are rules given to keep it balanced. I don't own TUSp, yet.

 

If you read the posts of this and the other Speed Force thread you will see that the internal balance factors have been mentioned and discussed.

 

However to put it succinctly character point and endurance costs are the primary limiters.

 

 

And if you can't move a cement truck in the Speed Zone, can you move *any* inanimate object? Will non-solid matierials, such as air and water, part for the movement of your body? How much semi-science are we trying to inject into this completely implausable bit of fantasy?

The character can move objects, but objects can't move themselves. So a speedster w/ enough STR could push or pick up and hit someone with a cement truck, but they couldnt get in the truck and drive it over someone as the vehicle itself would then be under its own power and it doesn't have the ability to move at Speed Force rates.

 

A limited UAA EDM and Transdim on STR UAA only usable by a Speedster to operate a Vehicle in the Speed Zone might be an interesting (and expensive) signature ability and of course a character's personal vehicle that he paid points for might be "Speed Zone" enabled if its built to be so and the GM signs off on it. Probably not very cost efficient however.

[Talon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Don't have the book, but this does look flat out dangerous. It doesn't fit at all into the Hero cost structure (think of the cost to reduce all characters within range to 0 DCV, as a start), and pretending that it does is likely to cause trouble.

 

Oh, and I can think of several things a speedster "unable to hurt a villain" could do to the villain in the Speed Zone: move them (next to the brick, out of combat, over a cliff, etc.), blind them (hat over the eyes!), etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Don't have the book, but this does look flat out dangerous. It doesn't fit at all into the Hero cost structure (think of the cost to reduce all characters within range to 0 DCV, as a start), and pretending that it does is likely to cause trouble.

 

Oh, and I can think of several things a speedster "unable to hurt a villain" could do to the villain in the Speed Zone: move them (next to the brick, out of combat, over a cliff, etc.), blind them (hat over the eyes!), etc.

 

(shooting pain between eyes)

 

No one is saying that there arent things a Speedster can do OTHER THAN HURT SOMEONE while in the Speed Zone.

 

The point Im trying to make is the ability of a specific individual speedster to hurt specific individual opponents with specific OTHER powers HAS NO RELEVANCE to the balance of the Speed Zone as a power construct / concept.

 

 

Or in other words, the ability or inability of a specific driver to drive an F1 race car on a specific track has no relevance to the maximum possible speed of the race car itself. The race car's maximum possible speed is a constant; the driver and the track are variables.

 

Saying things like "my 90 year old grandma couldnt drive faster than 35 mph in an F1 and thus its safe and reasonable for F1 cars to be street legal" is nonsensical and illogical. The capability of your grandmother as a driver is irrelevant to the potential power of the vehicle in general usage. The car itself didnt become intrinsically less powerful or dangerous with her behind the wheel; its potential is still there even if granny can't utilize it.

 

Similarly saying things like "my poorly designed speedster can't muster up more than 3d6 damage even if they are in the Speed Zone and thus its fair and balanced for the Speed Zone to be openly incorporated into my game." is equivalently nonsensical and illogical. A weak speedster's lack of competency at utilizing the potential of the Speed Zone is not a reflection of the Speed Zone and is useless as a means of determining the game balance of the Speed Zone; it is only a reflection of the weakness of that particular speedster.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If you read the posts of this and the other Speed Force thread you will see that the internal balance factors have been mentioned and discussed.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't see any other Speed Force thread. I seem to have misunderstood you to be discounting all the other possibilities of things you could do to someone while in the Speed Zone besides straight damage.

 

The character can move objects, but objects can't move themselves. So a speedster w/ enough STR could push or pick up and hit someone with a cement truck, but they couldnt get in the truck and drive it over someone as the vehicle itself would then be under its own power and it doesn't have the ability to move at Speed Force rates.

I'll have to get the book (I was going to anyway). But this raises a lot of questions:

While you're in the Speed Zone...

If you pick up an object and drop it, will it fall?

If you pick up an object and throw it, will it follow a normal thrown trajectory?

Can you light a match?

Can you pick up a fairly brittle object, like a wooden stick, without breaking it?

Can you eat and drink?

If you touch a cold object, such as an ice cube, will it absorb your body heat and melt?

If you jump into a swimming pool, will you sink into the water? Will you get wet? Will you cause a splash?

If you jump into a vat of acid, will you be affected by it?

Can you touch a normal person's bare skin, or adjust their position (say, move their arm slightly higher), without injuring them? Can you change their pose at all?

 

No, you don't have to answer any of these questions. They're either answered in the book, or they aren't and GMs and players will figure them out as appropriate. I don't mean to start a discussion about all this stuff, just something to think about. (Though, you're certainly free to discuss it if you want.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I'll have to get the book (I was going to anyway). But this raises a lot of questions:

While you're in the Speed Zone...

 

Here is my interpretation of the rules:

If you pick up an object and drop it, will it fall?

It will be stationary until you fall out of the Speed Zone, at which point everything you caused to happen while in the SZ resolves.

 

So if you picked up an object and carried it 10 feet and then dropped it, it would seem to hang in the air subjectively, and after you exited the SZ and time resumed its normal objective course relative to you it would then drop.

 

To everyone else other than people with high levels of Rapid Sight the object would seem to blink from where it was to where you moved it and then fall.

 

If you pick up an object and throw it, will it follow a normal thrown trajectory?

 

Mechanically you resolve the hit and damage rolls immediately but the object you thru just hangs in the air after it leaves your grasp. When you fall out of the Speed Zone, it streaks thru the air and hits or misses. In other words the actual effect resolves after you leave the SZ.

 

Can you light a match?

 

Yes, but the fire itself would not flare into being until after you left the SZ.

 

Can you pick up a fairly brittle object, like a wooden stick, without breaking it?

 

Yes.

 

Can you eat and drink?

 

Yes.

 

If you touch a cold object, such as an ice cube, will it absorb your body heat and melt?

 

 

No. Or if you had exceptionally high body heat then yes but the melting would not occur until after you left the SZ.

 

If you jump into a swimming pool, will you sink into the water? Will you get wet? Will you cause a splash?

 

I don't think the book covers this, but I'd say No, No, No. But Id have to really think about it before making a final call on that one.

If you jump into a vat of acid, will you be affected by it?

No. There is a reference to moving so fast you could stand on the surface of the sun and not get burned which is a good parrallel.

 

Can you touch a normal person's bare skin, or adjust their position (say, move their arm slightly higher), without injuring them? Can you change their pose at all?

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

 

 

The easiest way to conceptualize the Speed Zone is to think of it as a TIME STOP relative to the character with the ability. Relative to the character entering the Speed Zone everyone else is effectively frozen in time.

[Talon]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

(shooting pain between eyes)

 

Need some aspirin?

 

No one is saying that there arent things a Speedster can do OTHER THAN HURT SOMEONE while in the Speed Zone.

 

The point Im trying to make is the ability of a specific individual speedster to hurt specific individual opponents with specific OTHER powers HAS NO RELEVANCE to the balance of the Speed Zone as a power construct / concept.

 

Agreed -- I was actually saying that pretty much all speedsters will gain abilities to, if not hurt, at least incapacitate opponents. This makes the Speed Zone more, not less, dangerous.

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I was re-reading the Speedzone rules on the train last night, thinking over allowing it in my campaign. Some random thoughts.

 

What makes me cautious about the Speed Zone is that, like Enter the Macroverse, it ends up giving characters hidden points at a huge discount. You no longer need tons of points to simulate the Flash, but on the other hand this pushes a group of character builds that HERO already favors to the point where characters not using those builds can hardly compete. A speed zone using brick would be a nightmare.

 

In some ways, it's more of a potential problem than Enter the Macroverse, in that characters in the Macroverse aren't good for much beyond massive wide area smash-em-ups.

 

On the other hand, Speed Zone characters are less of a potential problem than a straight Extra Dimensional Time Stop build (EDM to "Out of time", then transdimensional on all powers). That build costs more points depending on how much the character can manipulate objects once they've stepped out of time, but there are no built in limits on the number of actions such a character can perform.

 

If I allowed the Speed Zone at all, I'd have to make sure that each Player Character had a similarly optimized build, to avoid the game becoming "Fast Guy and his Not Very Useful Friends". Also, any major villain that the Speedster had any chance of affecting would need to resort to sniper tactics, stay off screen entirely, or have speedster qualities himself.

 

Very interesting option for the top end of the genre.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Yes, Enter the Macroverse has some intrinsic downsides that still don't balance it but at least discourage its use. The Speed Zone on the other hand is all upsides.

 

After further consideration and playing around with constructs, I'm arriving at the idea that 1 actual Attack per Turn spent in the SZ might work out as powerful but not overwhelming.

 

The Speedster could still do a lot of cool things and it reduces / eliminates the need to buy some other abilities to mimic certain speedster stunts, such as the Chores Change Environment constructs and various stunts intended to allow a Speedster to perform some repititious or time consuming task faster.

 

I also would not allow the coup de grace rule to be used in conjunction with the SZ even though logically it should be.

 

 

Should I get to run a supers campaign again any time soon Ill definitely shake that out and see how it works.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

The easiest way to conceptualize the Speed Zone is to think of it as a TIME STOP relative to the character with the ability. Relative to the character entering the Speed Zone everyone else is effectively frozen in time.

Yes, obviously. But since time stop doesn't exist in the real world, the premise of it being possible leads to many wierd logical conclusions, and probably actual contradictions.

 

For instance, the thrown object: if it hangs in the air until time resumes, does it then immediately shoot strait out into space? After all, it was travelling at infinite speed.

 

When picking up an object in the Speed Zone, you are essentially giving it an instantaneous accelleration from 0 to infinite speed. Most objects, living or otherwise, cannot handle that kind of stress. It would do about the same damage as hitting an immovable wall at light speed.

 

OTOH, it might not even be possible to move objects at all. How much power/energy/STR/END should it take to be able to impart infinite acceleration on an object instantaneously? A powerful car might be able to go from 0-60 in three seconds. How much more power would be needed to go from 0-c in zero seconds? An infinite amount.

 

I know these considerations don't necessarily have to matter when we're using "comic-book physics" or "fantasy magic physics," but the rules (or at least a GM) need to define what can actually be done. And we may or may not want to (or be able to!) come up with pseudo-scientific explanations that keep it all consistant. I can only suspend my disbelief so far. Perhaps I know too much science for my own good!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Technically its not "0 seconds" its a milli, micro, nano, pico (etc) second.

 

But that aside worrying about real world physics to that degree is pretty pointless with the HERO System considering all of the unrealistic and basically impossible things it allows characters to do. Its models "cinematic" or "genre" realism, not "real" realism.

 

Or to put it another way, if you are that hung up on what is actually really possible, then you're going to have a lot more things to take issue with than just the Speed Zone.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

But that aside worrying about real world physics to that degree is pretty pointless with the HERO System considering all of the unrealistic and basically impossible things it allows characters to do. Its models "cinematic" or "genre" realism' date=' not "real" realism.[/quote']

I disagree. The HERO System (and all RPGs) are based in "real" realism. And then depending on the genre, they add in elements of the fantastic. The trick is in keeping the consistancy between the real and the fantastic, not for the sake of overall realism, but for the sake of the rules of the game. I'm not at all hung up on RW science. I am hung up on fairness and consistancy of the rules.

 

Because these fantastic elements don't jibe with RW physics, it is up to the *rules* to cover the hard-to-answer questions that they raise. Hopefully, in a complete and consistant way. And in a fair way would be nice, too.

 

I am not making any judgements on the SZ rules bacause, as I said, I haven't read them yet. Man, I really need to get a hold of this book!

[tesuji]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Stopped a page or so back to ask...

 

all the comments i see about speed zone balance and utility is from perspective of a speedster PC.

 

How would a typical party of players deal with a speed zone NPC character and what he can do to them?

 

I mean, from a game play standpoint, telling the entire gang to "sit still until my speedster crook runs out of endurance" as you resolve multiple speed zone actions with them standing there able to do nothing... that seems rather far into the "wont be acceptable" to most any gang i have ever seen.

 

It brings up horrible notions of shadowrun initiatives/actions, WoD celerity "sit and watch the guys with all the actions" and cyberpunk netrunning... not tomention one particularly horrendous HERo chanpions game where the Gm introduced a slew of really over the top allies and i waited 40 minutes for my character's first action to come up, changed my variable pool, then took a 45 minute drive to pick up girl and still made it back before my characters second avtion.

 

Anyone tried this yet?

 

Any playtesters or people involved in the product here?

 

Did anyone try this in playtest in preparation for the book? There had to be playtest, right? how did it go with speed zone NPCs? Did the playtests always assume PC speedsters?

 

curious, I am...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Well, unless the player of a Speedster using the Speed Zone was johnny on the spot and didnt waste anyones time, I'm sure it would be quite annoying to everyone else to watch one player take 4 or more consecutive actions before anyone else could do anything at all...especially when that player was probably already taking more actions than anyone else in the first place if their speedster already had a high SPD.

 

Depends on the group though.

[Kenn]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

If you have this ability in a Teen Champions campaign, can you only go 20 mph, as it would be a School Speed Zone?

[OddHat]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

I disagree. The HERO System (and all RPGs) are based in "real" realism. And then depending on the genre' date=' they add in elements of the fantastic. The trick is in keeping the consistancy between the real and the fantastic, not for the sake of overall realism, but for the sake of the rules of the game. I'm not at all hung up on RW science. I am hung up on fairness and consistancy of the rules.[/quote']

 

The Speedzone is already well out into the realm of the fantastic and gaining on the realm of the absurd. If realistic physics are important to your campaign, you probably shouldn't be using the speedzone at all.

 

If you must, you can always rubber science the effect to your heart's content. Tell players that the character is "out of phase with normal space time". Maybe throw in the word "quantum". If worse comes to worse, give the players a sufficient amount of beer.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

 

 

don't forget that the basic "buy in" to the speed zone brings you in as a normal in that realm.

everything you want to use there you must pay a premium.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

don't forget that the basic "buy in" to the speed zone brings you in as a normal in that realm.

everything you want to use there you must pay a premium.

 

Just got mine yesterday. Haven't had a chance to read everything but I think the normal aspect you refer to only applies to any STR you want to use as it suggest that all other 'normal' actions get handwaved within reason*.

 

*If you have a special attack like an advantaged HA you would need to buy the Speed Zone advantage for the HA too.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

Speed Zone follies are costly.

 

once you're in, you have to buy your SPD, your perceptions, and your "touch" again.

in effect, a Transdimensional advantage on each power you wish to use in the Speed Zone.

 

plus it all costs END: your Speedster just got 8 actions, fine. pay up 48 END or so.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

in effect, a Transdimensional advantage on each power you wish to use in the Speed Zone.

Actually, and again, no you do not. The book explicitly says all you need to do is buy an NPA Transdimensional for your STR and that covers you to use ALL of your other powers into the normal world.