Analyze This

[JmOz]

I was wondering if someone could give me concrete examples of what Analyze permits with the normal senses

 

I'm thinking analyze may be a good way to represent some daredevilisms (Reading newspapers via touch, detect if someone is lying by voice inflections, etc...)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Analyze This

 

Analyze: Motive. An import from d20, this Analyze skill allows the character (on an opposed roll) to determine the attitude/disposition of the person to whom they're speaking. Are they lying? Half-truths? Aggressive (if it isn't obvious?) Distrustful? Covering something else?

 

Analyze: Igneous Rock. I saw Super Squirrel do this - break down every element down to the percentages in a piece of stone.

 

Analyze: Alchemical Structure. In episode 2 of Fullmetal Alchemist, Edward lists the main components of the human body - those needed for Human Alchemy.

 

Is that what you're looking for? Or something more specific?

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze This

 

Hm...well, for one thing, there is a skill called Analyze and there is also a Sense Adder called Analyze. Sometimes it's hard to know which a person is referring to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Analyze Palindromedary

[Frenchman]

Re: Analyze This

 

I'm pretty sure he means the Sense Adder, not the skill. And on that assumtion...

In our games we usually set up a structure for each detect that is bought, and theres a few basics, like:

Normal: Tell when something is there, and a vague direction/whereabout.

Discriminatory: Tell a pretty good whereabout/direction, tell one species from another (dogs from cats, humans from orcs)

Analyze: Tell an exact location, if within range, tell apart individuals.

 

We use that as a guideline when creating a detect. A common one for us is detect magic, and we work it like this:

Normal: Tell when a person/object is magical, but if one of a group (a person in a crowd, a book in a stack, or an object held by a person) is magical, then they can't tell exactly which one without closer examination. Close examination can also reveal the Sphere (our 'schools') of magic, while cursory examination can give a rough estimate of the power level (on a 1-5 scale)

Discriminatory: Tell which people/objects in a group are magical with cursory examination. Sphere and power level are apparant at a glance, and specific effects can be gleaned from close study. At this level, one can tell the difference between the major 'styles' of magic (equivalent of Arcane/Divine, or elvish/human magics in other settings).

Analyze: Know the specific effects and power level of a magical effect at a glance, and the specific spell if the detector is familiar with it. The user can readily distinguish between the magic of different individuals.

 

There, is that a good 'nuff example for you? If not, I can dig out some of the other ones that players have used.

[JmOz]

Re: Analyze This

 

Hm...well, for one thing, there is a skill called Analyze and there is also a Sense Adder called Analyze. Sometimes it's hard to know which a person is referring to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Analyze Palindromedary

 

I ment the sense...sorry

 

What I am really looking for is how it interacts with the five basics...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analyze This

 

Well, "officially"...

 

Daredevil's ability to detect an assailant by hearing their breathing is done as a Detect. This lets him bypass the targets Stealth roll.

 

His ability to act as a lie detector by listeing to somones heartbeat is also done via a Detect.

 

His ability to read newsprint via touch however is done with Discriminatory and Analyze for normal touch.

 

all this can be found in The Ultimate Metamorph's Hypersenses chapter. I think it's also in USPD II.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analyze This

 

I ment the sense...sorry

 

What I am really looking for is how it interacts with the five basics...

 

I'm not seeing (no pun intended) any "daredevilishisms" with just the five basic senses. Daredevil had additional senses (same sense groups as normal humans, but more senses than the normal in each group; baring Sight of course).

 

Some good examples of how extra keen senses might be used can be found in the TV serien The Sentinel, which was just released to DVD. Most of what the main character does would be a combination of Discriminatory and Enhances Sense modifiers on all his senses, but no actual new senses of any kind.

[Shike019]

Re: Analyze This

 

theres a few basics, like:

Normal: Tell when something is there, and a vague direction/whereabout.

Discriminatory: Tell a pretty good whereabout/direction, tell one species from another (dogs from cats, humans from orcs)

Analyze: Tell an exact location, if within range, tell apart individuals.

 

 

If I remember correctly "Normal Sight" is at most discriminatory.

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze This

 

Officially, normal Human sight and hearing are NOT Discriminatory.

 

So you can have a sense that provides at least that much information without requiring it to be Discriminatory.

 

And if a sense is Discriminatory, let alone Analyze, it should tell you more than normal Human vision can.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

An an officially unofficial palindromedary

[JmOz]

Re: Analyze This

 

Was that a change in 5er? 5th clearly states Sight and Hearing are discrimitory. There is also for 5er a rules question that strongly implies that sight at least is still discrimitory

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analyze This

 

Was that a change in 5er? 5th clearly states Sight and Hearing are discrimitory. There is also for 5er a rules question that strongly implies that sight at least is still discrimitory

 

I'm not sure if it is different in 5ER, but I do recall that in 5E, Sight and Hearing are not Discriminatory. I believe they are described as "partially" descriminatory in that you can tell the difference between a tree and a dog, but aren't able to tell what properties of a tree or dog are just by looking at one.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analyze This

 

Sight, Hearing, Touch, and Taste/Smell all have a "crude" Discriminatory effect.

 

I happen to consider the "not the full Discriminatory" thing one of the more confusing bit's of language in FRED/5ER. Needs a different term IMO.

[JmOz]

Re: Analyze This

 

I'm not sure if it is different in 5ER' date=' but I do recall that in 5E, Sight and Hearing are [i']not[/i] Discriminatory. I believe they are described as "partially" descriminatory in that you can tell the difference between a tree and a dog, but aren't able to tell what properties of a tree or dog are just by looking at one.

 

Are you sure? I'm basing it on this quote.

 

...Normal Humans have this sense modifier for Normal Sight and Normal Hearing automaticaly; but not for other senses

 

However what you say does sound familiar, could it have been in an errata or something? BTW I did check the section on sight & Hearing in the senses, hearing again states it is discrimitory, with nothing about it being limited...

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Analyze This

 

I'm not sure if it is different in 5ER' date=' but I do recall that in 5E, Sight and Hearing are [i']not[/i] Discriminatory. I believe they are described as "partially" descriminatory in that you can tell the difference between a tree and a dog, but aren't able to tell what properties of a tree or dog are just by looking at one.

 

That seems kinda weird, to me. I mean, what visual properties of a tree or dog aren't covered by normal Sight (other than those covered by other senses in the Sight Group)? In other words, what would, say, buying Discriminatory or Analyze on one's normal Sight get you?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analyze This

 

Discriminatory means it allows you to discriminate between two things. That is, you can look at one, say, person, and be able to tell that it isn't another person. I see a person and know that it's my mom, or Donald Trump, or that one guy whose name I don't know but I keep seeing him in the hallway, or someone I've never seen before. I can look at someone and see distinguishing characteristics that indentify him: height, build, clothing, hair/eye color, ethnicity, sex, etc. I can see if he has any distinguishing marks - tattoos, injuries, scars, posture, gait, facial expression, etc. You don't need Analyze for anything like that.

 

If you want to be able to figure out why he's limping or making that facial expression, or what the tattoo means, or how his health is, or where he's from, etc., then you need Analyze, or some skill.

 

People can identify people by their appearance or by their voice. We have Discriminatory on Sight and Hearing. Dogs can identify people (and other dogs) by scent. They have Discriminatory sense of Smell.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Analyze This

 

Sounds about right to me Phil. I'd say the Analyze Adder on Normal Sight might allow you to be able to judge weight with great accuracy just from looking at someone/something, that certain proportions of a person's body are 3% off from the usual Golden Ratio, that their hair is actually a wig, that they appear to be several shades redder than their natural skin tone based on ethnic features and the appearance of different areas of the body, etc.

 

The conclusions about the thing or person (that they are of certain racial stock, are suffering from cancer, have been in the sun for approximately 3 hours today, etc.) might require application of a Skill, though there might be a significant bonus for certain applications because of the Analyze Adder--or certain conclusions might be made possible through casual observation that might otherwise require more detailed observation, time and investigation, equipment, or whatever. Certain things the Adder gives might also be determinable with just a Skill and the usual input from normal senses, but someone without either an applicable Skill or the Analyze Adder would be completely clueless.

[pinecone]

Re: Analyze This

 

Yeah ...I took the "sorta discrim" stuff to mean that if you buy discrim you should get "more"...so anyone can say "He smells like he's been drinking alchohol" but Mr. Bond says "Judging from the odor, he has been drinking french wine... Northern region I believe"...in other words his sense of smell/taste is More discriminating than mere mortals have.....So anyone can see that it is an Oak tree, but Mr. Discrim can see that it has a lot of beetle damage, and the right side is not symetrical to the rest of the tree, you know Sherlock Holmes stuff....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analyze This

 

Discriminatory means it allows you to discriminate between two things. That is, you can look at one, say, person, and be able to tell that it isn't another person. I see a person and know that it's my mom, or Donald Trump, or that one guy whose name I don't know but I keep seeing him in the hallway, or someone I've never seen before. I can look at someone and see distinguishing characteristics that indentify him: height, build, clothing, hair/eye color, ethnicity, sex, etc. I can see if he has any distinguishing marks - tattoos, injuries, scars, posture, gait, facial expression, etc. You don't need Analyze for anything like that.

 

If you want to be able to figure out why he's limping or making that facial expression, or what the tattoo means, or how his health is, or where he's from, etc., then you need Analyze, or some skill.

 

People can identify people by their appearance or by their voice. We have Discriminatory on Sight and Hearing. Dogs can identify people (and other dogs) by scent. They have Discriminatory sense of Smell.

 

In practice I agree. Normal Sight and Normal Hearing are Discriminatory. The book differs I believe. Which reminds me, I really should remember to bring it with me when I'm over at my friend's using the internet...

 

In any case, I dug up Sense Groups and the Simulated Sense Rule by Steve Long (from the original FAQ, I don't know if it's still up on the site anywhere though, since it was printed almost in its entirety in 5ER). In there it specifically states that both the Hearing Group and Sight Group come with Discriminatory, but the Discriminatory is defined as "not the full Discriminatory obtained by buying that Sense Modifier, but rather an effect of somewhat cruder degree." The examples given involve telling the difference between a bird and a trumpet, but not necessarily between two bird songs by listening, or telling the difference between two people, but not being able to tell their ethnicity or religion by sight.

 

What bothers me the most about this is the examples. I feel that it's ridiculous to tell religion from one's appearance. Even if there were certain distinctive features involved, if you don't know what those features signify you'll have no idea what religion they are, or even if those features are representifive of any religious practice (some people paint dots on their forehead and they might be Hindu, others paint "Bad A**" on their forehead... what religion are they?) One thing's for certain though, you'll still be able to see those DFs if they have them, regardless of what they mean.

 

Same thing with bird songs. Maybe you can't tell the difference between two pigeon coos, but I'm sure you can tell the difference between a mockingbird and a bluejay. Might not be able to name them, but if you heard a mockingbird on the left of you, you'd hear a completely different sound if there was a bluejay on the right. And chances are you'd be able to guess those sounds are coming from birds. And while you can't tell which is what, you can still hear that they are different.

 

Ultimately I'm still deciding on where to go on this issue. On the one hand, I trust Steve Long's judgement on most of the rules, but I often think his explinations are lacking. More often than not I've seen him explain why a certain rule is the way it is and have it make no sense at all, even though the rule is infact very sound and reasonable (ECs are an example of this in my opinion). There are other times though when I can't make heads or tails of what's really going on, especially when there is no defined middle ground (you can't buy "crude discriminatory" for other Senses for example).

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze This

 

I my opinion, normal sight and hearing should be considered discriminatory.

 

The rules disagree.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary, Analyze, Discriminatory, Targetting, Transmit

[SteveZilla]

Re: Analyze This

 

Ultimately I'm still deciding on where to go on this issue. On the one hand' date=' I trust Steve Long's judgement on most of the rules, but I often think his explinations are lacking. More often than not I've seen him explain why a certain rule is the way it is and have it make no sense at all, even though the rule is infact very sound and reasonable (ECs are an example of this in my opinion). There are other times though when I can't make heads or tails of what's really going on, especially when there is no defined middle ground (you can't buy "crude discriminatory" for other Senses for example).[/quote']

 

Discriminatory (the full version) does give more information than what one would normally be able to perceive. With normal sight, looking at a nearby mass of metal, I can tell it is metal, and it's shape, but not really it's mass.

 

With Discriminatory bought on normal sight, I can now tell that it is about 65% nickel and weighs about 200 kg.

 

Normal hearing can tell between two different people, or two species of birds. Buying Discriminatory on hearing allows one to easily tell two twins apart, or two birds of the same species.

 

You can always do the "crude Discriminatory" like normal sight & hearing have by buying Discriminatory and applying "Limited Use(Crude Version; -1/2)" on the Discriminatory.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Analyze This

 

Discriminatory (the full version) does give more information than what one would normally be able to perceive. With normal sight, looking at a nearby mass of metal, I can tell it is metal, and it's shape, but not really it's mass.

 

With Discriminatory bought on normal sight, I can now tell that it is about 65% nickel and weighs about 200 kg.

 

Normal hearing can tell between two different people, or two species of birds. Buying Discriminatory on hearing allows one to easily tell two twins apart, or two birds of the same species.

 

You can always do the "crude Discriminatory" like normal sight & hearing have by buying Discriminatory and applying "Limited Use(Crude Version; -1/2)" on the Discriminatory.

 

I can agree with this. Steve Long's examples of identifying things that require knowlege rather than observation (such as someone's religion) are confusing. Being able to tell that something is metal rather than stone or wood makes sense.