Characteristics, a special type of framework

[JmOz]

Just an exploration on how much each characteristic saves, the numbers used as a base are based on needed for even breaks

 

Strength, +30 points, cost 30 points

 

6 +6 PD

12 +6 Rec

15 +15 Stun

6 +6 Leap

20 +6 HA

12 +6 to Str rolls (The 2 point skill roll was chosen do to rarity of STR skills)

---

71 points

 

Not accounted for: Extra lift & throw capabilities

 

Averages: Each point of Str is worth 2.366666 points

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Dex:

 

90 points of dex +30 dex

50 +10 OCV

50 +10 DCV

30 +3 Speed

45 +30 Lightning Reflexes

30 +6 Dex Skill levels

---

205 points

 

Average: 2.2777777 per point spent on Dex

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

20 points for +10 Con

 

2 +2 ED

4 +2 Rec

10 +20 END

5 +5 Stun

4 +2 Con rolls (2 point skill levels do to lack of con based skills)

---

25

 

Average 1.25 points per point spent on Con

 

Unaccounted for

Resistance to stunning

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Body: 5 point of body for 10 points

 

5 +5 Stun

2 +2 Body Roll (2 point skill levels do to lack of skills)

---

7

 

Average 0.7 points per point of Body

 

Unacounted for: Body is the stat that determines life or death, kind of important, but no point value is given

[OzMike]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

How about

 

30 pts for +30 INT

 

30 pts +6 with INT rolls

18 pts Enhanced Perception: +6 with all PER rolls

----

48 pts

 

Average 1.6 points per point of INT

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Thanks OzMike, I was going to do INt this AM, but you saved me the work, appreciate it.

 

Moving on

 

30 points for +15 Ego

3 +3 MD*

15 +5 EOCV**

15 +5 EDCV**

6 +3 Ego Rolls

---

39 Points

 

Unaccounted for: Defensive Ego, Base Ego is important for resisting Effect based Mental Powers , and resisting PRE attacks

 

* this assumes the character spends and least 1 point on MD, or is in a game where MD is considered a characteristic

 

** I chose three point skill levels, as a 5 point skill level can be for ECV thus movable

 

Average: 1.3 pointsd per point, however I need to ask Steve a rules question about skill levels with ECV

[OzMike]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

No worries brother Oz - it is one of the forgotten characteristics usually.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

No worries brother Oz - it is one of the forgotten characteristics usually.

 

Just because people miss their Int rolls.

 

And yes I do see characteristics as almost a special type of framework, which is why I generally never allow them in real frameworks.

[OddHat]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

If we wanted a perfectly "balanced" HERO we'd drop all figured characteristics. Make it one step simpler to build the huge steroid freak who's almost immune to pain (High STR, CON, and STUN) but bruises easily because of lack of body fat (low PD), can't jump (no STR boost for Leaping) and can barely stagger down the street, let alone run (low END).

 

On the other hand, who'd want to play him?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

 

On the other hand, who'd want to play him?

 

As usual OddHat hits thing on the head.

 

Personally I think the concept of a perfectly balanced system is a pipe dream, notably for a system as complex as HERO. There should be some attempt at it, of course, but not to the detriment of the game - I look at playablitiy, and there we are just fine. Most things that are unbalanced have those funny little symbols by them, to at least alert the GM.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

That's nothing. Why, a normal person effectively gets 187 pts in free stats! Plus 14 pts in movement powers (run/swim)! Over 200pts right there, and that's not even factoring in free skills and getting five free senses (one of which is targeting!).

 

(But this whole thing is probably better suited to Hero System Discussion and bits like RDU Neil's attempts to get HERO to admit that there's a series of assumptions built into the system - like characters are assumed to be human, with these sets of assumed abilities and restrictions, etc.)

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

On the other hand, who'd want to play him?

 

[cartman]

 

BEEFCAKE!!!

[/cartman]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

An alternative viewpoint is that some of the figured characteristics extracted from primary stats may be overpriced. For example, Lightning reflexes is DEX, No Figured (-1/2), only for action order (-1/2). Is -1/2 remotely reasonable for "only for action order"? I think "only for CV and DEX skills" should be a much smaller limitation, and that covers all DEX attributes.

 

Skill levels are a difficult animal. Most are overpriced compared to the cost of characteristics. Compare +10 DEX (cost 20 after speed rebate) to buying up OCV, DCV and DEX skills with levels, and we still need Lightning reflexes - we need 36.67 points to replace a 20 CP investment in DEX. But if we lower the price of the levels, they become huge bargains in an NCM campaign. +10 DEX at NCM costs 50 after the speed rebate, so those levels are already a bargain! Maybe skill levels should have different costs in heroic and superheroic campaigns. For example, +1 w/ all PRE skills could be a 3 point level in Supers and a 5 point level in Heroic.

 

Figured - hey, if we lower the cost of REC, END and STUN (don't mess with PD/ED as they link to other constructs), we can bring these back into line. Declare them defensive powers so adjustment powers don't gain an advantage on these. At the same time, we can set "no figured" as a separate value for each stat that has figured and level the playing field there.

[OzMike]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

With the DEX limitations I tend to break it down like this:

-1/4 Not for CV

-1/4 Not for skills

-1/4 Not for action order

-1/2 Not for figured

 

Although the first limitation seems a little low considering the old "Offensive Use" limitation is worth -1/2.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Body: 5 point of body for 10 points

 

5 +5 Stun

2 +2 Body Roll (2 point skill levels do to lack of skills)

---

7

 

Average 0.7 points per point of Body

 

Unacounted for: Body is the stat that determines life or death, kind of important, but no point value is given

 

(I'm multiplying your example by 4, so I get whole numbers)

 

"Hard to Kill" is a new talent from our campaign. Normally you die at -(original body). Each point of Hard to Kill further reduces the point at which death occurs (ie if you have 10 body, you normally die at -10 body; with 12 points of Hard to Kill, you die at -22 body). Cost is 4 Hard to Kill per CP

 

Body: 20 points of body for 40 points

 

20 +20 Stun

8 +8 Body Roll (2 point skill levels do to lack of skills)

10 +40 Hard to Kill

----

38 points

 

Average 1.9 per point of body.

 

Kelcyron

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

MOving forward

 

5 points spent on +5 PRE

 

5 on +1 PRE skills

---

5

 

Average: point for point

 

Unaccounted for: Pre is used to make PRE attacks and defend against PRE attacks

 

 

5 COM spent on 10 points of COM

 

4 +2 on COM Rolls (It could happen)

---

4

 

Average: .8 per point spent

 

Unaccounted for: I have yet to meet a GM that did not have some advantage for High COM characters as a house rule, some examples: May be used for a complimentary rolls on PRE skills in appropriate settings to breaking inititive ties

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Now we can debate to our hearts content on wether or not stats are underpriced or what have you, but now we have some hard numbers on the breaks you are getting for higher characteristics. One thing I find REALY interesting is that even in a NCM game buying Dex and Str higher than NCM is still a bargain, not as good but still a bargain

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Couple of points:

 

1) Figured characteristics aside, it just seems like a lot of the things that are used to "fill in" for characteristics like Lightning Reflexes, Skill Levels and such are often overpriced, instead of stats being terribly underpriced. Since DEX was in the system long before Lightning reflexes, I'd say it's LR's fault, not DEX's.

 

2) If we're going to calculate value, another intangible to put in there could be that Characteristics can be Drained, while skills generally can't be. 30 DEX guy can be reduced to zero DEX and be screwed, while 10 DEX guy with 7 Levels in OCV/DCV is only down 3 CV when drained to zero.

[JmOz]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Couple of points:

 

1) Figured characteristics aside, it just seems like a lot of the things that are used to "fill in" for characteristics like Lightning Reflexes, Skill Levels and such are often overpriced, instead of stats being terribly underpriced. Since DEX was in the system long before Lightning reflexes, I'd say it's LR's fault, not DEX's.

 

2) If we're going to calculate value, another intangible to put in there could be that Characteristics can be Drained, while skills generally can't be. 30 DEX guy can be reduced to zero DEX and be screwed, while 10 DEX guy with 7 Levels in OCV/DCV is only down 3 CV when drained to zero.

 

Some good points...

[Gary]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

Couple of points:

2) If we're going to calculate value, another intangible to put in there could be that Characteristics can be Drained, while skills generally can't be. 30 DEX guy can be reduced to zero DEX and be screwed, while 10 DEX guy with 7 Levels in OCV/DCV is only down 3 CV when drained to zero.

 

If both get drained 10-29 Dex, the 10 Dex guy has to make anywhere from a 3- to 9- roll to do anything physical. The 30 Dex guy can still move and act.

 

Big advantage to 30 Dex guy.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

With the DEX limitations I tend to break it down like this:

-1/4 Not for CV

-1/4 Not for skills

-1/4 Not for action order

-1/2 Not for figured

 

Although the first limitation seems a little low considering the old "Offensive Use" limitation is worth -1/2.

 

That makes CV only, Skills Only and Action order Only each a -1 limitation, so buying +10 DEX by component parts would cost 20 + 20 + 20 + 10 (+1 SPD - I'm not paying 17 points for +10 DEX not for CV, not for skills, not for action order to get +1 SPD).

 

I can buy 1 level with all DEX rolls for 5 points. That's DEX not for CV, action order or Figured's. +2 for such rolls costs 10, or 20 if I buy it as limited DEX. Seems a little steep.

 

I can buy a level with DCV and one with OCV for 5 points each. That 20 point value (not for figured, action order or skills) matches up.

 

20 points only for action order is, in fact, what Lightning Reflexes would cost, but LR is absurdly overpriced, so let's not go there.

 

In my view, the cost of buying all the component parts should add up to equal or marginally exceed the cost of buying the whole. It shouldn't cost 50%+ more.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

2) If we're going to calculate value' date=' another intangible to put in there could be that Characteristics can be Drained, while skills generally can't be. 30 DEX guy can be reduced to zero DEX and be screwed, while 10 DEX guy with 7 Levels in OCV/DCV is only down 3 CV when drained to zero.[/quote']

 

As Gary notes, you ignore the fact 10 DEX guy is drained to -20 when 30 DEX guy is drained to 0. To take actions requiring movement, he needs to roll a 7-. I'd rather have the 0 CV, thanks.

 

Also, I would assess a negative OCV as DEX keeps falling. DCV should reasonably stop at 0, I suppose, otherwise he's throwing himself into the attacks with more skill than he could have avoided them.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

I ignored negative Dex because that wasn't part of the scenario, only being drained to zero, not drained 30pts.

 

Off topic, I tend to ignore the official set-in stone affects of negative stats other than Body/Stun, and Str as far as lifting capacity. Having a 7- Dex roll is penalty enough without requiring one to do anything, and the negative Int, Ego, and Pre type effects are even worse. IMO, YMMV, etc. Not that they've ever really come up in play for me except in theory as the basis for some attempt to make the "ultimate weapon!111one!!!" drain attack by some players...which never gets approved. Most of the negative stat effects are solutions in search of a problem. Again, IMO, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

I ignored negative Dex because that wasn't part of the scenario, only being drained to zero, not drained 30pts.

 

Off topic, I tend to ignore the official set-in stone affects of negative stats other than Body/Stun, and Str as far as lifting capacity. Having a 7- Dex roll is penalty enough without requiring one to do anything, and the negative Int, Ego, and Pre type effects are even worse. IMO, YMMV, etc. Not that they've ever really come up in play for me except in theory as the basis for some attempt to make the "ultimate weapon!111one!!!" drain attack by some players...which never gets approved. Most of the negative stat effects are solutions in search of a problem. Again, IMO, etc.

 

On the one hand, I think there should be a point at which the stat is so low you're not functional. On the other hand, it is subject to abuse. For example, a player with an INT drain because "lots of characters keep their INT at 10 or 13 so it's easy to drain away - how many points for Hunted by Grond?" But lots of abilities are subject to abuse.

 

For 60 points, I can drain 4d6 DEX, or 4-5 points on an average hit. I need to hit 4 or 5 times to bring the average Super to 0, and another 6 or 7 to make them fully helpless. Call that 10 hits minimum. How many hits with a 12d6 EB can the average hero take before being KO'd? And those accumulate with most of my teammates' attack powers.

[Zed-F]

Re: Characteristics, a special type of framework

 

The value quoted for INT is not correct. The rules specifically state that 5-point levels with INT apply to all int-based skills and rolls, including PER rolls. Thus INT is 1:1 just as PRE is.