Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

[OzMike]

This is an offshoot so I'll give some background.

 

The discussion came about in the CSL vs MA thread and became the old 'More DEX vs Levels + Reflexes' debate. It's covered a lot of ground over there, so I thought it deserved it's own thread.

 

Here is (in my understanding) the gist:

 

Do you think that a character concept defined as a 'normal' person should have to take/have NCM?

 

Discuss.

 

(And please, like my sig says, be nice. It's a game.)

[OddHat]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

This really belongs in Hero System Discussion.

 

That said, I never use NCM at all these days.

 

I do limit "normal" characters in my games, which simulate heroic fiction, to stats which make sense according to their back stories, the genre, and the campaign as a whole.

 

If they want to exceed those limits, if the concept makes sense, and if the build is balanced in terms of the campaign and other players, I may allow it.

 

If I allow one player to buy __ for __ points, I do not wiant to ask a second player to pay __ more points for the exact same ability.

 

I might reject a build because it doesn't fit the setting; I will not ask a player to pay extra points for permission to have a character built in a way that does not fit the setting.

[Mentor]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

I will just repeat my basic points.

 

1.) I build a character, not a damage dealing/absorbing series of stats on a character sheet. If my concept requires a 20 STR, 29 DEX, Martial Maneuvers, CSLs, lots of non combat skills and abilities and average or even meek looking character that is less combat optimal that the 60 STR, 29 DEX, CSLs and few non combat abilities and intimidating when he/she walks in the room, I trust our Ms to have a scenario or campaign in which my PC shines as much as the Brick. Building PCs based on perceived arena battles leads to disappointment.

 

2.) "Normal" is defined by our group in a Super campaign as stats under 30, not all 10s, so the definition of normal plus CSLs leaves a lot of room to play with. Cap and Batman qualify as trained normals, but they don't pay double for over 20pt abilities and can operate successfully with Thor, Superman and Green Lantern.

[OzMike]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

This really belongs in Hero System Discussion.

 

Oops on that then:D

 

Just remembered why I put it here and not there though...

Firstly the original thread is in here, and it makes it easier to go and have a gander at the background of the discussion if folks want.

 

Secondly ...ummm... I forget, but it really was the best reason ever. It's late for me methinks.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

Do you think that a character concept defined as a 'normal' person should have to take/have NCM?

 

Absolutly not. For example in the CU (And as a guideline in 5ER) trained human SFX can hit "30" in primary Physical Chars and 50 in mental ones (Int Ego Pre). Requiring NCM just destroys a number of character concepts (Karate Kid, Bats, Cap as examples).

 

My stance is pretty clear when I have a superbly trained human with a 32 dex and 9 speed (which is pushing the campaign limits for SFX pretty hard).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

To echo Lord Mhoram: Absolutely Not.

 

I personally use the guidelines on 5ER p40 and go from there.

 

If my normal person is supposed to be a Nobel winning scientist I'll increase the INT stat above 20. If they're supposed to be an Olympic class athlete with lots of natural talent I'll increase the appropriate stats (usually picking 2 of the physical stats to focus on).

 

After that any training they've done in their life is reflected further in Skill Levels for appropirate skills in a particular area of focus. Or simply raising a Skill above base.

[JmOz]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

Oops on that then:D

 

Just remembered why I put it here and not there though...

Firstly the original thread is in here, and it makes it easier to go and have a gander at the background of the discussion if folks want.

 

Secondly ...ummm... I forget, but it really was the best reason ever. It's late for me methinks.

 

Because NCM vs no NCM is an issue mostly assosiated with the Super Hero level of play, thus appropriate to champions?

[Zed-F]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

I will state that someone of unmodified human stock doesn't necessarily have to take NCM in my game. However, if they have several stats near NCM or a stat over NCM, then they really aren't 'normal' anymore, are they? They are superhuman, special in some sense that 'normal' people can't generally achieve. The only difference is, they didn't get that way by having a radiation accident, but by some other mechanism instead, such as 'super-training' or 'super-willpower' or what have you. These mechanisms are generally not compatible with real world physics, but are plausible in an action hero or comic book universe.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

I have two options for NCM:

 

For superheroic games, NCM is forbidden for everyone.

 

For heroic games, NCM is mandatory for everyone, and no one gets points for it.

 

If NCM is an option which you may, but are not required to, take, the logical thing to do is calculate your character's cost with your desired characterstics each way, and then take it or don't, whichever is cheaper. Or, take it, and use the points to buy up a characteristic.

 

I start with 20 STR. I take NCM. I use the 10 points I just got to buy my strenght up to 25.

 

Zeropoint

[Checkmate]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

OzMike has GREATLY simplified the whole thing, and has missed an important premise.

 

What the real question should be is: Do you think Green Lantern should be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring?

 

Without going into a great deal of it again some say supers should be supers across the board (as shown in most Champions products, Quantum with a 23 DEX etc). It is my view that GL shouldn't be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring. The guy was an artist who got a ring. In MY WORLD he would have about an 11 DEX, as opposed to the accepted Champions world where it would probably be around 20-23.

 

Now one of my BIGGEST arguments, is that people limit Normal Human's STR all the time. No one would allow a 60 STR where the concept was "Yeah he's a normal man, but went to Football camp for a year and learned how to work out", so the limits are in place, people just seemed to have more of an issue with DEX/SPD being set low.

 

For example Lord Mhoram's character, with a 9 SPD and even if the character only had 6" of running, this allows the character to run at a consistant speed of 20 MPH, and that's COMBAT SPEED by the way. Non-Combat speed is close to 40 MPH (39.77 MPH). And that's only 6" of running, which I doubt the character has. I'd bet the character has about 10" of running (just a guess from what LM has said about the character), which brings up the Non-Combat running to 67 MPH. A normal human, running at least 40 MPH, probably closer to 60 MPH, how is this not just as out of the genre as a normal human with 60 STR?

 

So we all agree that no human should be able to lift 100+ tons, but have no issues with giving people the stats that allow them to run 40 MPH.

[OzMike]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

JmOZ:

Because NCM vs no NCM is an issue mostly assosiated with the Super Hero level of play, thus appropriate to champions?

 

That's the one.

 

Checkmate:

What the real question should be is: Do you think Green Lantern should be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring?

 

Which Green Lantern? What level of experience? At the same time? Sounds like bad writing to me, not something that he does on a regular basis. Maybe he had +10 CSL [1 charge lasts 1 minute, does not recover] and used it. Call it 'Rush of Adrenaline'.

 

Besides, if you're talking Green Lantern aren't you talking about someone who probably has EGO way over NCM? The whole willpower thing with his ring...

[JmOz]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

to the GL question: Yes, that is what has been shown in the comics over and over again, does it make sense? Well almost as much as a trained room of reporters not recognising that there coworker in glasses is also the worlds greatest hero who they also deal with on an almost daily basis... But that is what is in genre, does it make sense probably not. But in standard Gold, Silver & Bronze age definatly, depends in Iron age (and some late bronze)

 

Now should there be a seperate genre for what you describe, definatly, I've played in it and it can be fun, but it is not 4 color super heroes.

[Zed-F]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

OzMike has GREATLY simplified the whole thing, and has missed an important premise.

 

What the real question should be is: Do you think Green Lantern should be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring?

 

Without going into a great deal of it again some say supers should be supers across the board (as shown in most Champions products, Quantum with a 23 DEX etc). It is my view that GL shouldn't be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring. The guy was an artist who got a ring. In MY WORLD he would have about an 11 DEX, as opposed to the accepted Champions world where it would probably be around 20-23.

 

Now one of my BIGGEST arguments, is that people limit Normal Human's STR all the time. No one would allow a 60 STR where the concept was "Yeah he's a normal man, but went to Football camp for a year and learned how to work out", so the limits are in place, people just seemed to have more of an issue with DEX/SPD being set low.

 

For example Lord Mhoram's character, with a 9 SPD and even if the character only had 6" of running, this allows the character to run at a consistant speed of 20 MPH, and that's COMBAT SPEED by the way. Non-Combat speed is close to 40 MPH (39.77 MPH). And that's only 6" of running, which I doubt the character has. I'd bet the character has about 10" of running (just a guess from what LM has said about the character), which brings up the Non-Combat running to 67 MPH. A normal human, running at least 40 MPH, probably closer to 60 MPH, how is this not just as out of the genre as a normal human with 60 STR?

 

So we all agree that no human should be able to lift 100+ tons, but have no issues with giving people the stats that allow them to run 40 MPH.

 

But Lord Mhoram's character is superhuman. Whether she started out as a normal human is irrelevant, no normal human has SPD 9. Still, if you allow the idea of superhumans in your game at all, and the power level of your game is such that having a SPD 9 is acceptable (LM's character is a cosmic-level martial artist, in a cosmic-level game, so the answer is yes,) then it's entirely reasonable to allow her to run 40mph. Wuxia characters in literature can easily reach and even surpass those speeds. Does it really matter why she can run 40mph, as long as it's in concept and doesn't destroy game balance?

[Shike019]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

In my current game, the GM has two options for NCM. THe first is the 20 pt NCM which doubles after 20 and ends at 30. THe second is a 40 pt. which Puts a hard cap on Primary Stats at 20, and you can raise one figured past max. This all depends on Concept though. IF you don't take NCM then you're character isn't a "normal Human" such as, she's a mutant, or somesuch.

[Certified]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

If NCM is an option which you may, but are not required to, take, the logical thing to do is calculate your character's cost with your desired characterstics each way, and then take it or don't, whichever is cheaper. Or, take it, and use the points to buy up a characteristic.

 

I have to agree here, what works best for the character. Our GM is pretty flexible and we have 2 trained normal characters in the current game one with NCM one without. It’s all about what works best with concept and execution not penalizing the player for wanting a semi-normal character.

[bwdemon]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

I'll throw in some of my thoughts on the matter, but I can't get into replies here or on the other thread for a couple days...

 

1. Every comic book character has an infinite uncontrolled cosmic VPP that tends to be more active when their name is in the title of the comic and less active outside of it. If the story calls for the untrained human slug to hit the fastest combat god on earth, then it'll happen. If the 98-pound weakling has to knock out the stone-jawed unbreakable monster, it'll happen. When the writer puts fingers to keyboard, anything can happen.

 

2. Being able to hit someone doesn't show better DEX, it shows better combat ability and/or luck and/or favorable writing. Never forget, you always hit with a "3" and you always miss with an "18" in HERO. Blind squirrels and nuts - you know how it goes.

 

3. Something from the other thread I saw is that JmOz would consider a person with magic-based or mental-based powers to be within a normal human background. I would consider that a mystic/mentalist background, which brings the character into the realm of superhuman. Anything beyond mere training and natural aptitude has the potential to exceed normal human ability and make the character into an "other than normal human." Again, a disconnect in definitions, but it could make things a little less polarized.

 

4. In the scenario discussed in the previous thread, a normal human would have to pay more points to mimic the superhuman's appropriately-above-NCM characteristics. This is true. However, they shouldn't try to and don't need to simulate those characteristics. They should have their own schtick and focus their points to make an appropriate character. If they want to be superhuman, then make a superhuman concept.

 

5. Fairness is very important. That's why I like my Rule of X. The end result in combat is that all characters will be reasonably competent and reasonably similar over the course of a full turn, regardless of how they go about it. They are free to go about it in a wide variety of ways, too.

 

6. It seems that there is a disconnect on what a "normal" human is and what that means within normal characteristic maxima. Few people could train in anything for the rest of their living days and ever approach NCM in any characteristic. It takes an un-freaking-believable human to hit NCM. To hit it in more than one thing? All that more amazing. A normal human? That's the guy with base characteristics between 8 and 10.

 

7. A non-superhuman hitting lots of people in a short amount of time is represented by a sweep or an appropriate power (e.g. AOE Selective), not by multiplying SPD out of the range of human capability.

 

8. I consider it very important for the GM to have near-absolute control over the setting and range of variables in the game. They're devoting a lot of time and effort to the project and they should have fun with it. They are not obligated to allow whatever a player wants - it has to fit into the setting and game that the GM envisioned. That said, players have near-absolute control over their character within those parameters.

 

9. Batman has as many points to spend as he wants and spending double to go over NCM isn't a concern. He could come in anywhere from 300pts to over 2,000pts. It all depends on whether you want to simulate the widest possible breadth of abilities and equipment he's displayed at the highest levels ever displayed or whether you want to limit particular inputs. In a game, the only person that determines whether an input is valid as a basis for the character concept is the GM.

 

Those are a few of my clarifications and talking points from the prior thread. More to come a couple days from now...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

OzMike has GREATLY simplified the whole thing, and has missed an important premise.

 

What the real question should be is: Do you think Green Lantern should be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring?

 

Absolutly. Supereheros even in secret ID should be better than the morass of humanity. I expect the lowest dex super to be on par with olympic gymnasts in reaction time (Dex/Speed). I expect the dumbest of them (aside from where dumb is part of thier schtick) to be smarter than an above averate normal (at a 13 or 15 int). I expect my weakest super to be stronger than a a guy on the street who is well toned and fit. That is the point of being a superhero - to be better than the average - even when you don't have your powers.

 

I think about the old "how to draw comics the marvel way" and they have a muscular normal, then they have the superhero (Cap in this case) with all the comic book exaggeration of size. I tend to think of every characteristic on supers to be that same kind of thing.

[JmOz]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

Well put, I would rep you BUT>..

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

But Lord Mhoram's character is superhuman. Whether she started out as a normal human is irrelevant' date=' no normal human has SPD 9. Still, if you allow the idea of superhumans in your game at all, and the power level of your game is such that having a SPD 9 is acceptable (LM's character is a cosmic-level martial artist, in a cosmic-level game, so the answer is yes,) then it's entirely reasonable to allow her to run 40mph. Wuxia characters in literature can easily reach and even surpass those speeds. Does it really matter why she can run 40mph, as long as it's in concept and doesn't destroy game balance?[/quote']

 

Yeah. And we never worry about that. By SFX she is human*, and has combat movement of 10", but when things go noncom we handwave away the noncom speeds that generates. And yes, the description and camapign is perfectly accurate. She a Karate Kid style martial artist in the JLA, able to keep up in raw damage with the heavy hitters.

 

* IE she has "superhuman powers" but they are something any human could train to do - she does have the extreme ch'i things - healing, fireball, wuxia walk on blades of grass.

[JmOz]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

Consider applying No Combat Multiplier to your running

 

Highly trained normal's speed

 

4*10*2=80"

 

You with No combat multipler

 

9*10*1=90

 

Not perfect but much closer

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

Consider applying No Combat Multiplier to your running

 

Highly trained normal's speed

 

4*10*2=80"

 

You with No combat multipler

 

9*10*1=90

 

Not perfect but much closer

 

She can go "noncom" in combat to cover ground for a few phases, just not longtterm. Effectively we considered it a -0 lim and play it that way.

[Zed-F]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

OzMike has GREATLY simplified the whole thing, and has missed an important premise.

 

What the real question should be is: Do you think Green Lantern should be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring?

 

Without going into a great deal of it again some say supers should be supers across the board (as shown in most Champions products, Quantum with a 23 DEX etc). It is my view that GL shouldn't be able to beat up a SEAL Team without his ring. The guy was an artist who got a ring. In MY WORLD he would have about an 11 DEX, as opposed to the accepted Champions world where it would probably be around 20-23.

Do I think GL should be able to beat up SEALs by the bucket-load? It depends on the tone I am aiming for in my game, what kinds of source material I am using for inspiration. If I want to model what he's portrayed as doing in the comics, then yes. If I want to have a game that's 'closer to reality' -- more of a 'people with powers' type of game -- then no, he shouldn't. There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach.

 

Now one of my BIGGEST arguments, is that people limit Normal Human's STR all the time. No one would allow a 60 STR where the concept was "Yeah he's a normal man, but went to Football camp for a year and learned how to work out".

Football camp, no... but there's nothing 'special' about football camp. Now if we're talking about a master of Sinanju, Sun Source of the Martial Arts, or some other equally Wuxia-like concept... maybe I do want a person to be able to acheive a 60 STR based purely on training. It's been done in the literature, it just depends on whether I'm using that as part of the source fiction for my game.

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

Should they have to purchase NCM? No. A "normal" character with super-training (wuxia, for instance) is a super, and shouldn't be wasting their time with disads that hamstring their character concept. The same goes for characters who are simply less-super (and want to spend their down-time beating up SEALs) in their normal ids.

 

On the other hand, if normalcy is a central part of the concept, and I have no intention of buying my stats up, then the disad is there to offset the fact that (by concept) I can't just take the easy route and pump my DEX or STR or whatnot for greater combat effectiveness.

 

In other words, NCM-concept characters should take NCM, everyone else should probably avoid it. Problem solved?

[OzMike]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

And while we're on the subject of what is 'normal' and what is not...

 

Strictly speaking by where it appears in the 5ER, Enhanced Perception is a power. If a character is say, a policeman and is a normal guy and therefore has NCM, does this mean that by some posters' standards he cannot buy +1 with Sight PER rolls (Observant in the Police Officer package) because it is a power and appears on that part of the character sheet?

 

Just curious really.

[Zed-F]

Re: Normals w/Abilities vs Supers [Offshoot of CSL vs MA]

 

He can buy +1 with INT-based rolls, which will give him +1 PER, though...

 

Technically he could buy a +1 with INT rolls and, since it's a 5-point level, apply 'Only for PER rolls' (-1/2) to give him a 3-point PER level.

 

Or you could just not be anal and make an exception for trivial sorts of 'powers' like that.