Multiform & bases

[garou]

D'oh - wrong forum. Please move it to rules discussion for me, mods.

 

Okay, quick, possibly silly question on Multiform and bases (not bases with multiform):

 

Hypothetical group has 5 members, at least one of which has mutliform. They build a base that has a real cost of (say) 50 points, and they decide to all pay equally for it.

 

Question 1: Does the Multiform character only have to pay 10 points total, but ensure that all forms pay something (if they wish to access the base in all forms*).

 

Question 2: If, for some reason, Multiform character pays 10 points in each form (main and alternate), then does it count as a contribution of 20 points, or only as 10?

 

* Per FReD, 211 it says that a GM should require the alt forms to buy in to the resource, but it does not say equally nor say that the points from each form are not counted toward the total group contribution.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

I've handled it as only the base form pays points for things like Vehicles and Bases. If the Multiform pays, then you are getting a massive extra discount. I don't think both forms should pay. If the base form pays, it's paid for. No one should pay twice for something. It makes no sense that one character has to pay twice for a Base just because he also bought Multiform instead of Desolidification.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

I agree with Dust Raven. The base form, and only the base form, should pay. The cost of the Base should not be divided by assigning any of it to any secondary forms.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

I've handled it as only the base form pays points for things like Vehicles and Bases. If the Multiform pays' date=' then you are getting a massive extra discount. I don't think both forms should pay. If the base form pays, it's paid for. No one should pay twice for something. It makes no sense that one character has to pay twice for a Base just because he also bought Multiform instead of Desolidification.[/quote']

 

Viewed another way, however, he's not paying twice. Each form is paying once. If each form wants a 10 PD/10ED force field, they all have to pay for it.

 

What other items should the base form alone be permitted to buy, with full availability to all forms? We've established that Billy Bratson can pay for a car for Captain Marvelous to drive, or a base for CM to live in. Can BB also buy followers who will assist CM? What about foci for CM's use? Other perks - can BB buy Head of State so Cm gets all those advantages for his own use? Contacts? Computers?

 

Note that, if BB instead placed OIHID on CM's abilities, CM is effectively paying full freight for all these abilities. If I let the base form, and the base form alone, pay for these abilities, the alternate form(s) gets a free ride.

 

In my view, if all the forms have access to the benefits of the points spent, all the forms should reflect those points.

[garou]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

Viewed another way, however, he's not paying twice. Each form is paying once. If each form wants a 10 PD/10ED force field, they all have to pay for it.

 

. . .

 

In my view, if all the forms have access to the benefits of the points spent, all the forms should reflect those points.

 

But, per FReD, if a group is buying a base or vehicle, they can divide up the cost however they see fit. So, in my example above, one person could pay 46 points, and each of the other 4 pay 1 pt each.

 

But, let's assume (as per the book example) that everyone pays a 10 point share for a 50 point base. If the character with multiform has to pay that same contribution in each form, then it actually costs them 10 points (main form) + 2 points (increasing the multiform total by 10/5). Thus, MultipleMarvin is penalized, whereas SpeedsterSteve, and MartialArtistMoe are not.

 

And, if alternate forms have to pay points, then they should certainly count toward to total points for the base, right? If Menagerie ever decides to build a base, a modest amount of points would let her build one that can repel high-powered heroes.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

Viewed another way, however, he's not paying twice. Each form is paying once. If each form wants a 10 PD/10ED force field, they all have to pay for it.

...[snip]

Actually, the base form is paying twice, because the base form pays the extra points in his Multiform to cover the points it paid for the Base as well. Without Modifiers, 10 real points of Base end up costing the base form 12 points. The same goes for any other "character sheet" Perk (Vehicles and Followers). The base form should never have to pay twice.

 

Then there is the issue of divided points. If two characters contribute 10 points each toward a Base, the Base has 20x5 points to spend. Should it matter if one of those characters is a Multiform, or even a Duplicate? Points contributed are points contributed. The problem is that the real cost of those points, paid by the base character, would be on a 1/25 ratio instead of 1/5. I see this as unbalancing. I wouldn't allow it for the same reason I wouldn't allow CM alone to pay for his Vehicle while BB pays nothing but the extra cost of the Multiform (even if BB can't use the Vehicle). Base Character Can't Use/Order Vehicle/Base/Follower should not effectively be a -4 Limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

Actually' date=' the base form [i']is[/i] paying twice, because the base form pays the extra points in his Multiform to cover the points it paid for the Base as well. Without Modifiers, 10 real points of Base end up costing the base form 12 points. The same goes for any other "character sheet" Perk (Vehicles and Followers). The base form should never have to pay twice.

 

From a game balance perspective, the base character pays 10 points to have a base that he can access when in that form. He pays a further 2 points to allow his other form to also have access to that base. I would allow for the base to exist, unaltered, when a form that did not pay the points is around, but that form would not have access to the base.

 

Conceptually, the extra two points aren't spent on the base - they are spent to provide the alternate form with an extra 10 points, which that form may then spend for whatever benefits we want to access in secondary form.

 

If the other forms can access a base, why not other things the base character paid for - say, a magic sword? Base Form buys the magic sword, sticks it in the ground and changes to Secondary Form who paid no points for a magic sword. The sword doesn't sit in the ground waiting for Secondary Form to pick it up and take it into combat. The secondary form did not pay for a magic sword. And if the secondary form didn't pay for the base, it doesn't have a base. If that is illogical based on the nature of the Multiform, both forms should pay for the base. Just like both forms pay for +10 STR if they both have 20 STR.

 

From the source material, consider the early career of the Hulk. Dr. Banner had access to his labs at Gamma Base (a perk, if not a base itself) and had several Contacts on the base. The Hulk had no access to these resources. Banner paid points for these perks, but not for the Multiform to have access to the base. Hulk paid no points for these perks, so he could not access them. Gamma Base is still there, but the Hulk cannot make use of it.

 

Captain Marvel has access to the JLA satellite base. This form has paid points for the base. Billy Batson has not paid these points, and therefore cannot access the base.

 

Then there is the issue of divided points. If two characters contribute 10 points each toward a Base' date=' the Base has 20x5 points to spend. Should it matter if one of those characters is a Multiform, or even a Duplicate? Points contributed are points contributed.[/quote']

 

From a game perspective, those points only exist when the character (duplicate or form) exists. Unless the base vanishes along with the duplicate, this seems illogical. Therefore, only the base form, and not the duplicate, should reasonably pay for the base. Granted, the duplicate likely has access, but the base character which provided such access is still around, so that's not a major issue to me.

 

A Multiform character has a different issue. If both forms paid for the base, then there is always a 10 point contribution to the base out there somewhere. There isn't a 20 point contribution - 10 points vanish when the base form shifts to the secondary form, but are replaced by the secondary form's 10 point contribution. When he shifts back, the 10 points are swapped out again.

 

The problem is that the real cost of those points' date=' paid by the base character, would be on a 1/25 ratio instead of 1/5. I see this as unbalancing. I wouldn't allow it for the same reason I wouldn't allow CM alone to pay for his Vehicle while BB pays nothing but the extra cost of the Multiform (even if BB can't use the Vehicle). Base Character Can't Use/Order Vehicle/Base/Follower should not effectively be a -4 Limitation.[/quote']

 

Yet Base Character can't fire use Other Form's powers is effectively a -4 limitation. If CM has +50 STR, BB is only paying 10 points for it. Of course, access to CM's abilities also places a Lockout on BB's abilities. This exponential effect means these powers need close monitoring - not just perks, but all abilities provided by a Multiform. For example, while the rules don't preclude it, I doubt many of us would allow BB to put 200 of his 350 points into Multiform and make CM a 1,000 point character in a 350 point game.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

I'm with Hugh on this one.

 

And as for the 12 point thing...

 

If both forms have 5 PD and 5 ED, the base form pays 12 for that as well.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

This looks like a matter of agree to disagree, Hugh. I can't honestly say either way is right anymore than I can say either way is wrong. I just prefer my way. Character Sheet perks just work that way for me.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

At first I was going to say that only the base form needs to pay, but after reading Hugh's post, I'm not so sure. If only the base form has to pay, you could do this:

 

Base Form

70 Multiform - one 350-point form (200+150)

130 Base Contribution - for a 650-point Base

 

200 Total - (no disads)

 

Alternate form:

350 points worth of awesome powers, skills, and characteristics.

150 points worth of Disads

 

And then you spend all your time in the secondary form, never changing back to the primary form.

 

This essentially gets you a 650-point base for free!

[secretID]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

I (newbie) am with Hugh. I see it like this:

- All forms would have to pay to use the same suit of armor

- A vehicle is not very different than a suit of armor

- A base is not very different than a vehicle

- A portion of a base is no different than a base

- Therefore, a bathroom is a suit of armor.

 

I would think that only those forms that had paid for the base would have access.

 

I wouldn't think a clone would pay unless the duplication were just a funky design of something that didn't really seem like duplication.

 

One argument against: Why should MF be the only one of the 1/5 powers that would require the extra payment, assuming that a summoned or a follower wouldn't have to pay?

[garou]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

And what makes Multiform (Banner/Hulk) substantially different from just going OIHID for everything?

 

Now, in Phil's example, one the main form could use the base, but it does lead to some more questions:

 

Group of 5 - all (save MultiformMan, hereafter MM) chip in 10 points for a base. MM, in the primary form, chips in 10, but adds another 30 xp (he's been hoarding) for the multiform - and then says "I raised the max point value of my alternate form by 150 points. I'd like to put them all toward the base."

 

Now what?

[secretID]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

[Newbie disclaimer again]

 

One answer to the first question is that you can't get nearly as much extra power with OIHID.

 

More philosophically, I think Hulk should be MF, not OIHID, b/c OIHID looks like it's supposed to be a way to add things to the "base form" w/o losing anything. A character built on OIHID wouldn't lose his base access when in heroic ID any more than he would lose any strength already bought or his ability to drive, but a MF character would have completely different pluses and minuses, possibly including base access.

 

For the other question, I think it should be all or nothing - each form that gets use of the base pays the same amount. So the 30 xp would have to be divided 25/5.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

Group of 5 - all (save MultiformMan, hereafter MM) chip in 10 points for a base. MM, in the primary form, chips in 10, but adds another 30 xp (he's been hoarding) for the multiform - and then says "I raised the max point value of my alternate form by 150 points. I'd like to put them all toward the base."

 

Now what?

 

Now I say "No". Unless you can provide a plausible explanation as to why portions of the base appear when your character shifts to that form and vanish when he shifts out of it, the points contributed to the base cannot vary between forms.

 

Of course, I would also not generally* allow the point total of any form to exceed the base points of the campaign (ie 350 points, plus earned xp). Using Multiform to leverage XP and get 5 points for every one the other characters get is clearly unbalanced.

 

* Never say never. A multiform that allows a more powerful form, but is limited in some fashion, may be acceptable in some games. For example, I can see a fantasy mage being capable of shapeshifting into a dragon far more powerful than he is, but the spell would clearly have significant limitations.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

I say that the multiform C pays once. To do anything more is punishing the C for the C they play.

[Mike W]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

In my game, the base form pays for it, regardless of who uses it. And the points for the base do NOT count toward the base form's cost for determining what the other forms cost.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

In my game' date=' the base form pays for it, regardless of who uses it. And the points for the base do NOT count toward the base form's cost for determining what the other forms cost.[/quote']

That's a great idea for maintaining balance. It really depends sometimes though, so I could go either way, either counting points spent on Vehicles/Bases/Followers toward the max points a MF can be or not.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

...on the other hand, there's nothing in FREd (don't know if this was changed in 5ER) that says that everyone with access to the base must pay for it. If one character contributes all the points himself, he can still share it with the rest of the team. As long as the whole thing is paid for, it doesn't matter how they split the check. Likewise, the Super Duper Good Guy Team of Campaign City, recruits a new member who has heretofore been a solo crimefighter and is already fully written up. He hasn't yet paid any points to contribute to the team HQ. Does that mean he can't use the base? Of course not!

 

(Or did this change in 5ER?)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

...on the other hand, there's nothing in FREd (don't know if this was changed in 5ER) that says that everyone with access to the base must pay for it. If one character contributes all the points himself, he can still share it with the rest of the team. As long as the whole thing is paid for, it doesn't matter how they split the check. Likewise, the Super Duper Good Guy Team of Campaign City, recruits a new member who has heretofore been a solo crimefighter and is already fully written up. He hasn't yet paid any points to contribute to the team HQ. Does that mean he can't use the base? Of course not!

 

(Or did this change in 5ER?)

That's an excellent point (and repped). Just because you haven't paid points for a base doesn't mean you can't go inside and use it. That's completely up to the person who did pay points and what he can personally do to stop you.

[OddHat]

Re: Multiform & bases

 

If I design the base, it's generally part of the background and I don't charge for it at all. Players have or lose access based on what suits the adventure that week, and the staff is rarely all that useful.

 

If one player pays for the base alone, I'll let him use the 5 point doubling rule for bases and vehicles to get himself a nice Night Hunter Plane or Night Hunter Power Armor or such as compensation for having provided the rest of the team with someplace to crash. If the player wanted to freeze other players out of the base, I'd talk it over with him. If he were serious, OK, a chance to play some group conflict.

 

As to multiform, the official rule that each form must pay for anything they share seems fair to me if I'm charging that player for the base at all. Points are a measuring tool as much as a currency; they both let GMs roughly track the power of a character and players purchase game elements for that character. If the base is worth 3 points to one form as a game element, it's worth 3 points to every form that can use it, just like a 3 point Skill or Power that every form shares.