WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

[wylodmayer]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

In re - Lucius' post

 

Giggle.

 

That DOES seem to be the most direct solution, doesn't it?

 

In my original conception, she wound up getting a PL-110 visa from the CIA... the same kind they issued to "useful" Nazi scientists after WWII. Although the CIA couldn't employ her directly, she wound up working for some private security company on their recommendation... and conveniently contracted to the CIA to do interrogations.

[David Johnston]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

So, why didn't the State just use her as breeding stock?

[David Blue]

Re: Message from the President

 

Originally Posted by POTUS

Classified: Above Top Secret

For Your Eyes Only

Destroy after Reading and Memorizing Contents

 

I regret to inform you that after due consideration it has been determined that an individual with your combintion of:

1. Personal power;

2. Public visibility; and

3. Commitment to the totalitarian heresy that an individual must submit to the State, even unto death;

 

inherently constitutes a threat to the Republic.

 

You are therefore directed, within thirty (30) days of the date of this communication, to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice. Further, you are directed to locate and execute any and all individuals known to you to subscribe to the opinion that their lives are or should be at the disposal of the State. You are not to reveal the contents of this communication except that you are permitted to assure those you execute that you are acting under orders and that their sacrifice is required for the good of the State.

 

On behalf of the American people and nation, I thank you.

That is sublime. The occasional idea of genius like that is the reason I read threads like this.

 

I think a properly played "extreme" player character with the right psych limits (which need not be Total - I think Strong would do it) should accept that order and carry it out to the best of his or her ability, give or take natural fumbles, hesitations and momentary crises of conscience.

 

It would be quite a thing to discover, twenty years later, what had happened to Silent Centurion ("faithful unto death") and his soul mates.

 

Or it might be a remarkable messy - and fun - Iron Age scenario if Silent Centurion was aware of thousands of people, in different countries, including celebrities and important officials, who shared his views on the primacy of the state, and he was very rapidly killing them all, wherever they were, possibly Chinese leaders first.

[Lucius]

Re: Message from the President

 

That is sublime. The occasional idea of genius like that is the reason I read threads like this.

 

I think a properly played "extreme" player character with the right psych limits (which need not be Total - I think Strong would do it) should accept that order and carry it out to the best of his or her ability, give or take natural fumbles, hesitations and momentary crises of conscience.

 

It would be quite a thing to discover, twenty years later, what had happened to Silent Centurion ("faithful unto death") and his soul mates.

 

Or it might be a remarkable messy - and fun - Iron Age scenario if Silent Centurion was aware of thousands of people, in different countries, including celebrities and important officials, who shared his views on the primacy of the state, and he was very rapidly killing them all, wherever they were, possibly Chinese leaders first.

 

Now, see, I hadn't even thought of that. I thought the extermination order applied only to citizens - since the core idea is obviously about a State's power over its own citizens, not the State's power to kill OTHER States' citizens. The idea was that assuring the designated individuals that their death is directed by the State's authority and for the State's good would ensure their co-operation and eliminate resistance.

 

Of course, anyone who resists or objects despite that is proven (assuming they were targetted on the basis of their own statements) to be a hypocrite, but also proven to fall outside the group marked for destruction.

 

For that matter, it might force a change of opinion in the character herself - at the very least, it should make her think deeply about the conclusions she has come to and embraced for so long.

 

After all, all she has to do to exempt herself from the order is to decide that even a Head of State does not have the right to issue such an order. That obviates the very basis on which the order is issued and the terms in which it is couched.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that this is after all much better reasoning than states often use when killing their citizens....

[Lemurion]

Re: Message from the President

 

Now, see, I hadn't even thought of that. I thought the extermination order applied only to citizens - since the core idea is obviously about a State's power over its own citizens, not the State's power to kill OTHER States' citizens. The idea was that assuring the designated individuals that their death is directed by the State's authority and for the State's good would ensure their co-operation and eliminate resistance.

 

Of course, anyone who resists or objects despite that is proven (assuming they were targetted on the basis of their own statements) to be a hypocrite, but also proven to fall outside the group marked for destruction.

 

For that matter, it might force a change of opinion in the character herself - at the very least, it should make her think deeply about the conclusions she has come to and embraced for so long.

 

After all, all she has to do to exempt herself from the order is to decide that even a Head of State does not have the right to issue such an order. That obviates the very basis on which the order is issued and the terms in which it is couched.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that this is after all much better reasoning than states often use when killing their citizens....

 

The only problem I see with this is that of interpretation. What if the character starts going after all the state governors who support capital punishment? After all they'd fit that description (allowing for a more real-world interpretation of "personal power." Capital punishment is the most visible real-world example of submitting an individual's life to the state. Who knows, perhaps the President signed death warrants while a governor, and so the character goes after him?

 

Now that could lead to all sorts of fun ideas.

[Wanderer]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

My typical characters would not really be applicable for the scenario, since they would be the ones with the "extreme" political views: rabid Magneto-like mutant supremacists, divine beings well-mindful of their rightful exalted position among puny mortals, Authority-like global vigilantes unbound by human laws, Dr.Doom-like fascistic super-villains cooperating with vanilla heroes out of honor commitments, against a common enemy, or being obliged by of Suicide-Squad-like compulsory black-ops draft as alternative to imprisonment, name it. Truth, Justice and American Way is for wussy lapdogs of the Man. Not even the Original Icon dares to name the full slogan nowadays

 

On a more serious tone, one somewhat "extreme" but playable political view was one I once used, a Spectre-like cosmic-mystical being who would regularly visit death row inmates and give them the option of being mind-read and personally judged by him. If he would find them guilty of their crime and deserving ultimate punishment and/or otherwise unworthy to live because of other unrelated deeds, he would terminate them on the spot. If he would find them innocent and/or truly deserving of a reprieve due to general character, honest redemption, or extenuating circumstances, he would ask the appropriate authorities to immediately pardon them or he would use his very considerable power to break them out of prison.

[wylodmayer]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

So' date=' why didn't the State just use her as breeding stock?[/quote']

 

They DID. She had two kids in her teens, back in the 40s. They'd be in their sixties now, while she's just coming out of stasis, still in her early twenties.

[wylodmayer]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

The thing is, I never intended for this character to be wholly rational. I mean, sure, she claims she believes in the ultimate power of the State over her life, but I left it an open question how she would ACTUALLY respond given a situation where the State tried to kill HER. I mean, as a member of the "elite" ethnic group in her original setting, she had the LUXURY of holding those views.

 

In any case, it would be a moot issue once she's in America, since there are procedural concerns that prohibit outright execution orders here. See, she's very concerned with *legitimate* power. She doesn't think it's a GOOD idea that the Americans have "hamstringed" (her wording) their gov't with all these restrictions about what it can do to its own citizens and when and how, but she recognizes that they exist, and would consider anyone who violated them a criminal.

 

BTW, I want to thank everyone for their contributions to this discussion. It's been fascinating for me; I appreciate it.

[Springald Jack]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Hexslinger would mostly leave them alone. After all between Villains and his relationship with The Council he has a lot to deal with. However if they started publically promoting those views (legal here in America) he might do something like striking them with the Curse of Dionysus(making them obviously drunk) on mic or whatever.

 

(Hexslinger was intended to be the not-quite-trusted and creepy "part-time" member of his Superteam the HeroGuard.

[Lucius]

Re: Message from the President

 

The only problem I see with this is that of interpretation. What if the character starts going after all the state governors who support capital punishment? After all they'd fit that description (allowing for a more real-world interpretation of "personal power." Capital punishment is the most visible real-world example of submitting an individual's life to the state. Who knows, perhaps the President signed death warrants while a governor, and so the character goes after him?

 

Now that could lead to all sorts of fun ideas.

 

Funny you should say that.

 

It only occurred to me long after posting this that the order itself constitutes grounds to kill the person who issued it. Think about it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary loves this stuff.

[David Blue]

Re: Message from the President

 

It only occurred to me long after posting this that the order itself constitutes grounds to kill the person who issued it. Think about it.

Not necessarily, in my opinion.

 

Originally Posted by POTUS [...]

Further, you are directed to locate and execute any and all individuals known to you to subscribe to the opinion that their lives are or should be at the disposal of the State.

In this communication, the POTUS does not indicate any willingness to die for the state. He only indicates a willingness to have others assasinated, specifically those who are willing to die for their country, perhaps unlike him.

 

In the case of the present POTUS, you might decide that his National Guard service did indicate he was willing to die for his country, and therefore he could (and should) be killed. But if you thought that his National Guard service was essentially fake, he would have shown in practice that he did not subscribe to the opinion that his life would be at the disposal of the state, therefore he would be immune.

 

Of course' date=' anyone who resists or objects despite that is proven (assuming they were targetted on the basis of their own statements) to be a hypocrite, but also proven to fall outside the group marked for destruction.[/quote']Kill him if you think he's honest, hold him immune if you think he's a hypocrite - that seems to be the spirit of the order all right.

 

The palindromedary loves this stuff.

Me too.

 

It's part of why I like these extreme characters. I like to play them, and I like to gamemaster them.

 

Not only do characters like this lend themselves to situations interesting to think about, they set up great, dramatic conflicts and scenes. The more they are for real, the more this is so.

 

Imagine Silent Centurion has been played for about two years by a good strong roleplayer, and everyone in the team knows how utterly genuine about their misguided idealism this person is, and that they've laid their life on the line for their beliefs.

 

Then they go on an international murder rampage.

 

Oh, I should stop her to say why I thought this might be international. I am very pro-American, but I can't help noticing that from time to time, as in the case of Manuel Noriega, the Americans have shown that they think their laws simply over-ride the laws of other nations. Can you go to somebody else's country, smash any armed resistance, seize the de facto ruler, and try, convict, sentence and imprison him for drug offences under American law? Yes indeed. So I thought: if our extreme character is ordered to kill him or her self, and all the like-minded people who are likely to include their friends and family, and the order never says to exempt foreigners (who Silent Centurion quite likely doesn't even like), and foreigners have not been held exempt from U.S. law and executive decisions in the past - well you see how it can add up.

 

Anyway, Silent Centurion is mowing down Important People left and right, explaining nothing (as per orders), and war impends. The POTUS orders the player characters to apprehend (and/or kill) the "rogue" (that is obedient) hero and explains the deal.

 

For that matter' date=' it might force a change of opinion in the character herself - at the very least, it should make her think deeply about the conclusions she has come to and embraced for so long.[/quote'] Imagine the hushed silence of the other players, and then ...

 

"You thought Silent Centurion, of all people, might not be serious? ..."

 

How could the gamemaster not love a moment like that?

 

Later: the other player characters drag in the "rogue" (that is obedient) hero, who has worked their way through half or more of their friends, DNPCs, relatives and so on; and he or she gets the order to desist personally from the POTUS. And the explanation, including: oh, I thought it might make you think more deeply about your professed beliefs...

 

Whatever happens then, it's gotta be interesting. It could legitimately be resolved as simply "your soldier, faithful unto death," or as the equivalent of a "radiation accident" to their psychological limitations. (Violent anarchist: very common, strong)

 

Like I said - as a gamemaster, I love these extreme characters. I don't promise to make life easy for them, but I do love them. I respect their devotion (which is why I give them the respect, to showcase their personal issues in scenarios), and they are fountainheads of the intense dramas I love.

[Lucius]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Now what happens if no one in the Administration - up to and including the President - knows anything about this order, or who really sent it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary quotes: "Dispose of in any manner that will prevent reconstruction of the document or recovery of its contents." and begins chewing.

[Drhoz]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

What would your character do?

 

You have just discovered that another hero in your group holds some political views that would be considered "extreme" these days.

 

1)Such as believing in the divine right of kings, or that the government has a right to dispose of its own citizens as it sees fit - including execution for "the good of the state", or that a government really should be based on one religious tradition and competing traditions should be outlawed. In other words, ideas that seem to run against the notions of freedom and fairness that we take for granted in a modern democracy.

 

Vitus holds all those views. Anybody else with the same ideas he'ld welcome with open arms. Admittedly he comes from a Bronze-age type culture, hanging onto survival by the skin of its teeth, but he considers Earth to a aggravatingly wealthy civilisation, healthy enough that it can afford to waste time on idiotic ideas like representative democracy, mercy for dangerous felons, etc.

 

At least Vitus would have someone to commiserate with everytime the rest of the party stopped him cutting someone's throat

[Lucius]

Clarification

 

When I wrote that post, I wasn't thinking of the current or any former President. Just thinking of the Office in the abstract.

 

When I said that it occurred to me afterward that the order could be interpreted as marking the person who issued it for assassination, I meant that issuing such an order implies that you think you have the RIGHT to issue such an order - which means you would be among the group you have just authorized for termination.

 

Kind of like one of Robert E. Howard's stories where a hero accepts some enchanted dust from an exceptionally vile wizard and asks the price.

"Blood! A life!"

"Whose life?"

"Any life fool! Man, maid, or infant, so long as blood flows freely!"

So of course, the hero runs him through with a sword on the spot. It never occurred to the diabolist that HIS life could be the price.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that words can be very dangerous.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Clarification

 

Kind of like one of Robert E. Howard's stories where a hero accepts some enchanted dust from an exceptionally vile wizard and asks the price.

"Blood! A life!"

"Whose life?"

"Any life fool! Man, maid, or infant, so long as blood flows freely!"

So of course, the hero runs him through with a sword on the spot. It never occurred to the diabolist that HIS life could be the price.

 

 

"The House of Arabu" AKA "The Witch from Hell's Kitchen" -- the latter of which must be one of the worst Howard story titles ever!

[David Johnston]

Re: Clarification

 

 

Kind of like one of Robert E. Howard's stories where a hero accepts some enchanted dust from an exceptionally vile wizard and asks the price.

"Blood! A life!"

"Whose life?"

"Any life fool! Man, maid, or infant, so long as blood flows freely!"

So of course, the hero runs him through with a sword on the spot. It never occurred to the diabolist that HIS life could be the price.

 

What kind of wicked wizard doesn't demand payment in advance?

[Lemurion]

Re: Clarification

 

What kind of wicked wizard doesn't demand payment in advance?

 

wicked does not equal wise, or even possessed of common sense.

[OddHat]

Re: Clarification

 

wicked does not equal wise' date=' or even possessed of common sense.[/quote']

 

He and the other kids studying Evil Wizardry probably made fun of the Business majors.

[David Johnston]

Re: Clarification

 

wicked does not equal wise' date=' or even possessed of common sense.[/quote']

But offhand I'd think it precluded being trusting.

[OddHat]

Re: Clarification

 

But offhand I'd think it precluded being trusting.

 

Nah. Criminality, academic achievement, and poor judgment are not mutually exclusive.

[Lucius]

Re: Clarification

 

But offhand I'd think it precluded being trusting.

 

Perhaps he wasn't trusting. Perhaps the deal included a geas. Or the wizard counted on tracking down and cursing the swordsman if he didn't kill someone within a certain time. Or he was used to dealing with people too scared of him to consider not complying, let alone attacking him.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me I have phone calls to make...

[Egyptoid]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

How do you respond to this character and his role as a hero?

 

People's characters should mind their own business ?

we assume heroes only punish actual lawbreakers.

Getting bent out of shape over views (not actions) is

about as childish as you can get.

 

 

but what will happen in a realistic campaign is the self-appointed

authorities will do their best to silence anyone who is audacious

enough to disagree verbally. It doesnt matter if they are a hero or not,

they should toe the line, be PC, and only say what's approved, right ?

[OddHat]

Re: Clarification

 

Perhaps he wasn't trusting. Perhaps the deal included a geas. Or the wizard counted on tracking down and cursing the swordsman if he didn't kill someone within a certain time. Or he was used to dealing with people too scared of him to consider not complying, let alone attacking him.

 

Or he could have just been an idiot. Many criminals are.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

"I'm Horus Ra, what the #$#$ is this 'election' you speak of?"

 

 

Bad Hermit, no biscuit for you. Everyone knows Horus-re would never say such a thing. He's been a divine king, and he knows the time for such have past.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

As an aside, in the current ( non-Champions ) game I am in, pretty much every member of the party holds beliefs that, in the typical game, would put them in this category. Specifically, every one believes in rule by nobility or monarchy to some greater or lesser extent, and all but one believe that superhumans are gods who are entirely right to rule mortals.

 

Of course, given the game is set roughly a thousand years before historic ancient Greece, this merely places them as ordinary. In fact, the one party member who *doesn't* believe superhumans are gods is the odd one out who holds an "extreme" position.