WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

[starblaze]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Does anyone remember a character from the old Allies book called The Aryan? I've thought once or twice of making a new version of him as a flying brick (think Master Man with some brains) -- a decent, heroic, honorable man who is nonetheless convinced that 'Nazism could work with the right people'.

 

(I'd have to put some thought into why he doesn't hate Jews, but that's part of the fun of inventing these weird characters.)

 

Just for the record and not to get off track but some Nazis simply believed that they were fighting in a war against Communism.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

OK, Original topic:

Voltage: Would probably just look at the guy and say, "Dude, you need help. Like, professional. Seriously."

 

Have I played characters with different religious/political beliefes than myself? Absolutely. I am a non-denominational Christian (formerly Lutheran) and an independant political conservative. I have played characters who were Odinists, communists, athiests, Catholics, Wiccan, and any number of others.

 

I think the reason Pagan religions don't get taken more seriously in comics is because "gods" like Thor, Hercules, etc. are seen as just another group of supers. It's the same reaction one of my characters, Mass (an atheistic scientist) had when he met some of the Greek gods: "They're just superhumans, like us. If we had lived back then, we would have been worshipped as gods, too."

[McCoy]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

You have just discovered that another hero in your group holds some political views that would be considered "extreme" these days. Now, some provisos for forming your answers -

 

1) I am not talking about being like extremely right or left. I am talking about holding views that few, if any, in the West seem to seriously hold these days. Such as believing in the divine right of kings, or that the government has a right to dispose of its own citizens as it sees fit - including execution for "the good of the state", or that a government really should be based on one religious tradition and competing traditions should be outlawed.

I would love to know what makes you think these are "views that few, if any, in the West seem to seriously hold these days."

 

2) The character is very clear that he or she will abide by the laws of your campaign city's country, and respect it's customs. Just because *he thinks* that the rich *should be* allowed to kill poor people who get in their way (like, say, in Feudal Japan), he understands that it's illegal *here* and that anyone who does so is a criminal who needs to be apprehended and locked up... because he's a hero, and heroes lock up criminals.

 

3) He acts like a hero. Rescues people, etc. He just seems to hold different "core ideas."

 

How do you respond to this character and his role as a hero?

All Characters: "And this is a problem because --?"

 

As long as they act like a hero, they are a hero, and thus a valued comrade-in-arms.

[Lucius]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

You know, I'll have to chime in with those who say "what makes you think these views are rare in the modern West?" In particular, if I knew how many Americans actually believe this one

 

that a government really should be based on one religious tradition and competing traditions should be outlawed.

 

I'd probably be terrified.

 

So if anyone out there does have the poll numbers, don't tell me. I have enough nightmares already.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that the real question might be - if someone holds villainous views, how can it be that they are acting like a hero?

[Alverant]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

I know it's a little off topic but many of Hitler's views on the Jews came from Pope Innocent III. Hitler's Nuremberg Laws of 1935 were heavily based on Innocent's decrees. The First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire in Germany. So it's fair to say Hitler's views were not new and based on centuries old opinions. They may be questionalbe today but for a long time they were law.

[Lemurion]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

I like the "hero" with questionable beliefs, and always thought the Aryan was a great character. As I've said before, HERO is about creating heroes and one of the most intriguing aspects of it is how does one define a "hero."

 

As I'm just in the process of working up a GAC game set in Hudson City in 1938 a precursor to the Aryan could be very interesting. The war hasn't happened yet, and here's an heroic Nazi out showing the world the "justice" of their cause. Meanwhile the SS and other groups are coming along underneath and behaving in a more traditional Nazi fashion.

 

Great idea.

[Trebuchet]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

I should have noted earlier that Zl'f would never serve with any team member who belongs to an outright hate group (KKK, Nazis, Aryan Nation, La Raza, the current government of Iran, etc.). MidGuard would never accept such a member anyway, but even on her own she wouldn't associate with such a person. (Since her father fought the Germans in WW2, she has special reasons to despise Nazis.)

 

She might work with such an individual on a one-time basis if they shared a common goal (perhaps defeating an even worse enemy) but even that would be highly unlikely.

[OddHat]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

 

As I'm just in the process of working up a GAC game set in Hudson City in 1938 a precursor to the Aryan could be very interesting. The war hasn't happened yet, and here's an heroic Nazi out showing the world the "justice" of their cause. Meanwhile the SS and other groups are coming along underneath and behaving in a more traditional Nazi fashion.

 

Great idea.

 

Do a little research into the Nazi funded German-American groups of the time. I could easily see one of them fielding a "hero" as a political gimmick.

[Lemurion]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Do a little research into the Nazi funded German-American groups of the time. I could easily see one of them fielding a "hero" as a political gimmick.

 

I was thinking of doing something with the Bund. I love the pulp era and supers and think they go really well together.

 

Now if I could just find a copy of the original GAC I'd be styling. PDF would be best (though I don't think it was ever released that way) so I don't have to wait for shipping to Canada. I have the 4E GAC.

[TheRealVector]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

My character Vector would work with them while constantly making fun of them.

[nexus]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Where is "The Aryan"? I played a character somewhat like before and I'd love to read more about him. My version was from an altnerate universe where Aryan "movment" followed a similar bent.

 

She was really baffled why people took her costume insignia so poorly for awhile...

[LunaRagno]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

I am talking about holding views that few' date=' if any, in the West seem to seriously hold these days. Such as believing in the divine right of kings, or that the government has a right to dispose of its own citizens as it sees fit - including execution for "the good of the state", or that a government really should be based on one religious tradition and competing traditions should be outlawed.[/quote']

 

I echo those who have said these are not as rare as you seem to believe.

 

In other words' date=' ideas that seem to run against the notions of freedom and fairness that we take for granted in a modern democracy.[/quote']

 

The "take for granted" is why they are not rare enough.

 

2) The character is very clear that he or she will abide by the laws of your campaign city's country' date=' and respect it's customs. Just because *he thinks* that the rich *should be* allowed to kill poor people who get in their way (like, say, in Feudal Japan), he understands that it's illegal *here* and that anyone who does so is a criminal who needs to be apprehended and locked up[/quote']

 

I do not have a character who would believe his protestations. If his acts have shown he obeys the law, then his acts would be believed.

 

... because he's a hero' date=' and heroes lock up criminals.[/quote']

 

NO! Heroes are shining examples of good, and good acts grow out of good thoughts, a good heart. He does not have a good heart. He is merely "Mr. DoRight," he is not a hero.

 

If he has been doing right, and a reasonable person would expect he will continue to do right, most of my characters would work with him. But never, never think of him as a hero, just a useful (but never to be trusted) ally.

[SatinKitty]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

MINDFLAIR would never go the Xavier route above and mindwipe him. She feels she has no right to violate someone, so if the person were harmless, she would merely present her card and offer therapy. If he were a danger to others she would take care of the matter, removing psychotic rage and the like.

[Pogo]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

My character Vector would work with them while constantly making fun of them.

 

And they'd start getting tensor and tensor . . .

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

I've considered doing that more than once, but was afraid it might turn into an NGD-level political screamfest ... er, debate.

 

Anyways ... to use my most recent characters ...

Quantum Kitsune would be making a variety of comments, doing the 'twirl the finger by the temple' move (that indicates someone's a little cuckoo) behind his back, and generally acting like a self-important know it all. You know, a teenager.

 

Beowulf's Human Half would merely give him a deadpan stare. He's kinda ... emotionally constipated.

 

I know, I'm quoting myself, but I figure if I just do an edit three pages back, nobody will notice. But I forgot ...

 

War Wolf: "Your views are unorthodox, but provided you continue to act in a manner appropriate to your station as a hero, we'll have no problems. However ... you do not EVER speak into a microphone under threat of having my size 15 titanium boot shoved up your ***, then I will disconnect the ankle joint and LEAVE IT THERE."

[David Blue]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

NO! Heroes are shining examples of good' date=' and good acts grow out of good thoughts, a good heart. He does not have a good heart. He is merely "Mr. DoRight," he is not a [i']hero[/i].

 

If he has been doing right, and a reasonable person would expect he will continue to do right, most of my characters would work with him. But never, never think of him as a hero, just a useful (but never to be trusted) ally.

I think that's a good point.

 

Busting criminals may make you useful. (Or it may make you a vigilante and criminal yourself.)

 

To be a hero's hero, literally, to be respected as hero by other heroes, more than useful actions are required. Judgments of motive and character come into it.

 

Some political views are not just nutty, they are dreadful. That may not affect who you have to work with in a crisis, but it is relevant to judgments of motive and character.

 

Someone who is from another world (or from any time before the 20th Century) and doesn't know that the swastika is a bad symbol is fine (by default). Someone with views that sound Nazi-like, unless you examine them carefully, when they turn out to be quite different, may be fine. Someone who is the real thing has earned a highly unfavorable judgment on their character and likely motives - even if, let's say as a spokesman for National Socialism, they go around doing things calculated to make them popular.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

And they'd start getting tensor and tensor . . .

 

[SKJAM!]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Where is "The Aryan"? I played a character somewhat like before and I'd love to read more about him.

 

 

The "Allies" supplement for 4th Edition.

[Lemurion]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

I think that's a good point.

 

Busting criminals may make you useful. (Or it may make you a vigilante and criminal yourself.)

 

To be a hero's hero, literally, to be respected as hero by other heroes, more than useful actions are required. Judgments of motive and character come into it.

 

Some political views are not just nutty, they are dreadful. That may not affect who you have to work with in a crisis, but it is relevant to judgments of motive and character.

 

Someone who is from another world (or from any time before the 20th Century) and doesn't know that the swastika is a bad symbol is fine (by default). Someone with views that sound Nazi-like, unless you examine them carefully, when they turn out to be quite different, may be fine. Someone who is the real things has earned a highly unfavorable judgment on their character and likely motives - even if, let's say as a spokesman for National Socialism, they go around doing things calculated to make them popular.

 

That's one reason why I'm setting things in the campaign I'm building prior to WWII. Nazis cannot be heroic by our definition because we know where that path leads. However there could be a lot of very good roleplaying if there was a Nazi NPC who truly wanted to be a hero, and was a devout believer in Nazism. You can't do that in a post-war setting, too much of the truth is out. But in the thirties it's something that can be used to great RP effect.

[Twilight]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Why would he have to be a Nazi? Just because he's a German in the nineteen thirties doesn't make him automatically a Nazi. They were the ruling party at the time but that hardly meant every single German was a member or agreed with what they were doing.

[David Johnston]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Why would he have to be a Nazi? Just because he's a German in the nineteen thirties doesn't make him automatically a Nazi. They were the ruling party at the time but that hardly meant every single German was a member or agreed with what they were doing.

 

The proposed character wasn't German. He was a German-American who belonged to the German-American Bund, the pre-war American Nazi Party which, at it's height, had about 25,000 members. Note that in Marvel's version of World War II, during the war the Bund apparently went underground and launched a massive sabotage campaign so the hometown heros would have someone to fight. In reality most of the members of the Bund were interned and the remainder quickly disavowed any enthusiasm for Hitler.

[Lemurion]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

Why would he have to be a Nazi? Just because he's a German in the nineteen thirties doesn't make him automatically a Nazi. They were the ruling party at the time but that hardly meant every single German was a member or agreed with what they were doing.

 

Because making him a Nazi brings the dichotomy to the fore. If the character is not a Nazi, but simply German patriot then I don't consider his beliefs to be "questionable" in the same way. At worst, they're misguided into supporting "My country, right or wrong." Making the character a devout Nazi emphasizes the moral issue and focuses more on the question of what makes a hero.

 

I chose the 1930's partly because that's when the campaign is set (funny that) but also to allow for things like this. In 1938, before the Kristallnacht it was easier to be fooled about the nature of Nazism. Nazism wasn't synonymous with evil in the popular mind. People could be apologists without being regarded as kooks.

 

I may well have a pure German patriot as well, but as I said above, that character won't bring the same questions to the fore.

[Lemurion]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

The proposed character wasn't German. He was a German-American who belonged to the German-American Bund' date=' the pre-war American Nazi Party which, at it's height, had about 25,000 members. Note that in Marvel's version of World War II, during the war the Bund apparently went underground and launched a massive sabotage campaign so the hometown heros would have someone to fight. In reality most of the members of the Bund were interned and the remainder quickly disavowed any enthusiasm for Hitler.[/quote']

 

Oddhat suggested a Bundist propaganda character. I was thinking on the lines of a German Nazi. Both of them make interesting statements about the nature of heroes, especially ones of "questionable" if not downright wrong beliefs. Either or both could be a valid character to help drive home the difference between heroes and villains.

[wylodmayer]

Re: WWYCD: Hero with "Questionable" Political Views

 

See, I knew this would come to Nazis, because that's why I originally asked the question.

 

I made a character who had been a "homefront hero" in Germany during the Nazi regime. She was a hero as far as she was concerned - she fought smugglers and black marketeers and saboteurs. Anyway, she had been placed in stasis by someone she knew right before the end of the war, and somehow her tube ended up in America, and she was released by UNTIL or SHIELD or whoever. Well, Germany sure didn't want her back, and on the off chance that she did do something bad, the American government decided it didn't want her off where they couldn't keep an eye on her, so they let her stay in New York. Where she decided to do the only thing that had given her life meaning before - be a hero. Except her costume is a big Nazi thing.

 

Now, I did dial back the racism thing a bit for palatability. She was no more racist than the AVERAGE person in the 1930s, which is still pretty racist by our standards. But she was, for the record, against slaughtering the Jews... on the principle that it was too *costly*. She didn't have any reason to WANT Jews killed, but as far as she was concerned she had no reason to NOT want them killed either. And she certainly didn't believe her government had no right to do it, either.

 

So basically, I made a character who lacked the "moral core" so often seen in mainstream superheroes, who fought crime because she was a hidebound law-and-order type who believed that the state is the ultimate good. And even though she was not an American, and she disagreed with a lot of the things the American government did, she would fight to uphold its laws and take down anyone who threatened "social stability" by committing crimes. I loved the idea of playing a character who thinks of herself as a hero and can't understand why people revile her. And I don't think she's "evil," either. She's not mean spirited, and doesn't want to see anyone get hurt. But if the state, while acting within its appointed powers, decides to, say, kill a whole bunch of people for no reason, even if she disagrees, EVEN IF SHE IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE, she believes it has a right to do so.

 

Now, the players in my group had varying reactions. One of them outright called her evil and had a very bad reaction. Everyone else did okay. One guy thought she was borderline evil, but his character didn't make judgments like that, so he didn't care. Funny thing is, in the previous game, he had played an incarnation of some ancient pagan plant god thing that would have agreed with my character on most issues! Authoritarian power, etc. Another character had previously played a somewhat-reformed Dracula as a hero, but a very dark hero indeed. Again, he would have agreed with my character on most issues. The first character NEVER engendered any arguments or even discussions from the group; Dracula did some; mine did a LOT. All because of that special symbol that is like a lightning rod for this sort of thing.

 

Now, let me be clear I am not defending the Nazis. I picked Nazism as her "thing" precisely because their rule was so horrendous, and people WOULD immediately assume she was evil for being one. But I just don't think that however misguided her ideas are that we can call someone who consistently ACTS in a heroic fashion "evil."

[Lucius]

Message from the President

 

Classified: Above Top Secret

For Your Eyes Only

Destroy after Reading and Memorizing Contents

 

I regret to inform you that after due consideration it has been determined that an individual with your combintion of:

1. Personal power;

2. Public visibility; and

3. Commitment to the totalitarian heresy that an individual must submit to the State, even unto death;

 

inherently constitutes a threat to the Republic.

 

You are therefore directed, within thirty (30) days of the date of this communication, to terminate yourself with extreme prejudice. Further, you are directed to locate and execute any and all individuals known to you to subscribe to the opinion that their lives are or should be at the disposal of the State. You are not to reveal the contents of this communication except that you are permitted to assure those you execute that you are acting under orders and that their sacrifice is required for the good of the State.

 

On behalf of the American people and nation, I thank you.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Feed this message to a palindromedary after reading and memorizing its contents.