ghost-angel Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? If you have an OAF gun and an OAF shield, then by what prevents you from using them at the same time? If you've bought them as two ultra slots in a MP such that you can't, how do you justify that? There are ways. Maybe the MP's OAF is a magic amulet that summons a gun or a shield of mystical substance which disappears when you switch to the other one. But if you want a gun (one that "behaves" like a physical, one-handed weapon) and a shield (that also behaves like a physical object), then you probably shouldn't buy them as mutually exclusive slots in an MP. Under most circumstances, even a comic-book-physics gun and a comic-book-physics shield ought to be usable at the same time. So buy them that way. The build should match the concept. The don't use an MP. Use the construct that emulates what you want to do - don't mash what you want to do into a construct not designed to handle it. Sure the build should match the concept - just use the correct built to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiree Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Maybe I am mistaken about the Gadget/Utility Belt MP setup. But I always put a limitation of OIF on the MP, and OAF on the slots if it was a gun, baterang or whathaveyou... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Maybe I am mistaken about the Gadget/Utility Belt MP setup. But I always put a limitation of OIF on the MP' date=' and OAF on the slots if it was a gun, baterang or whathaveyou...[/quote'] That's fairly standard. Another angle is saying the whole thing is x2 END so the whole thing gets that, except some parts that are x3 END so they take that instead. You can make a Limitation worse on a slot, but not better than the minimum taken for the whole construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Maybe I am mistaken about the Gadget/Utility Belt MP setup. But I always put a limitation of OIF on the MP' date=' and OAF on the slots if it was a gun, baterang or whathaveyou...[/quote'] That may be the most likely build for a utility belt, but there are plenty of possible Focuses that would be OAF on both the slots and on the MP reserve. One multi-function gadget, or a gun with multiple settings. Even the multi-setting gun need not be all attacks. You could have it fire bullets on one setting (RKA), spreading net on another (Entangle), and a grappling hook on another (Swinging), etc. All slots are in the same OAF, so they get the -1 lim and so does the reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? That may be the most likely build for a utility belt' date=' but there are plenty of possible Focuses that would be OAF on both the slots and on the MP reserve. One multi-function gadget, or a gun with multiple settings. Even the multi-setting gun need not be all attacks. You could have it fire bullets on one setting (RKA), spreading net on another (Entangle), and a grappling hook on another (Swinging), etc. All slots are in the same OAF, so they get the -1 lim and so does the reserve.[/quote'] And on a multifunction gun like that (SFX), I would definitely say you grab the gun, you got the whole MP. Or, Foxbat's popgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? And on a multifunction gun like that (SFX), I would definitely say you grab the gun, you got the whole MP. Or, Foxbat's popgun. Yes. But there can also be cases where you could grab an OAF for one slot only, even if the whole MP is also an OAF. Of course, if you're trying to disarm/defeat someone, there'd probably be no reason to take one slot and leave the rest, when it would be just as easy to grab the whole MP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? ahem... Rarrr!!! It's all in how you define the MP - 1 object or a series of objects. It's worth the same limitation on the Power AFAIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? How do you grab one slot of an OAF? If it's an Obvious Accessible Focus, then ... well, dammit, you're picking up an object. This is something I've beaten my players about the head & neck over. It seems the one 'fatal flaw' in hero is that people don't divorce the mechanics from the SFX. When you're in game, you shouldn't be thinking "Okay, I grab his OAF and then get a full write up from the DM..." No. "I grab his gun" "I grab his wand" "I grab his... never mind." Whichever it is, while I'm sure we can come up with an example where you'd steal "one slot" but it hurts my brain thinking about it. BOO CRAZY MECHANICS DISCUSSION! HOORAY BEER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? How do you grab one slot of an OAF? If it's an Obvious Accessible Focus' date=' then ... well, dammit, you're picking up an [i']object.[/i] This is something I've beaten my players about the head & neck over. It seems the one 'fatal flaw' in hero is that people don't divorce the mechanics from the SFX. When you're in game, you shouldn't be thinking "Okay, I grab his OAF and then get a full write up from the DM..." No. "I grab his gun" "I grab his wand" "I grab his... never mind." Whichever it is, while I'm sure we can come up with an example where you'd steal "one slot" but it hurts my brain thinking about it. BOO CRAZY MECHANICS DISCUSSION! HOORAY BEER! MP; OAF - Crossbow with tricks arrows Slot; Normal Arrow Slor; Explosive Arror "I grab all his explosive arrows!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Fair enough, but it isn't something that would happen all that often, and again, I'm talking about divorcing the ruling from the SFX. "I grab his crossbow, and I grab his explosive arrows!" wouldn't, for me, represent "grabbing one slot." You can get any old set of bolts to go with it (crossbow BOLTS, or quarrels, you dweeb). The important thing is that you grabbed the crossbow. Or. You could grab his quiver and leave the crossbow out of it. Then what have I done? Stolen all the charges to his MP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Fair enough, but it isn't something that would happen all that often, and again, I'm talking about divorcing the ruling from the SFX. "I grab his crossbow, and I grab his explosive arrows!" wouldn't, for me, represent "grabbing one slot." You can get any old set of bolts to go with it (crossbow BOLTS, or quarrels, you dweeb). The important thing is that you grabbed the crossbow. Or. You could grab his quiver and leave the crossbow out of it. Then what have I done? Stolen all the charges to his MP? yeah that pretty much covers it. What you describe the arrows or the crossbow or the quiver ends up describing what happens mechanically. You don't know how it's built - remember. It could be 9 seperate powers, it could be an MP, it could be the Crossbow is a Power and the Trick Bolts are an MP of Naked Advantages. It could have charges. It might not. All that crap is up to the GM and/or the Player who built it. The guy doing the taking of the focus doesn't and shouldn't care what happens as long as "I grab his explosive bolts" means the owner cannot use that focus until it is retrieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Look at it this way: MultiPower - Utility Belt (IIF) Slot: Flashlight (OIF) Slot: Buckle Gun (IIF; 2 Charges) Slot: 9mm Pistol (OAF; 2 Clips of 9 Charges) Slot: Grapple Gun Buckle (IIF) Now, you can take any one thing off the belt (the flashlight or the pistol or what have you) and they lose the ability to use that slot (hence the Focus). Or you can take the whole belt and they lose everything - thus the MP gets the lowest Focus Limitation you've used (since Mechanically anything the MP has as a lim the slots also have). If you want to use the Flashlight and Pistol at the same time (logical) then you have to match that Mechanically - buy up the Pool high enough to use both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Which is one of those wacky, broken things in HERO - it would make way MORE sense to not buy any of those things as a Multipower. Much easier to say: "DM, can I get a cop belt and all the hangers and holsters and bits so that I can carry my pistol, grapple & flashlight around easily?" Me: "Ayup." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? When I was thinking of 'multipower' I was thinking of things like: Automatic Rifles, which are usually built as MPs with a Burst & Full Auto mode. Might even have an over/under GL, or a shot gun attachment. Could have a scope on top! I have taken the RIFLE, and everything attached to it. I would not just "take the grenade launcher" or "just the scope" - I probably couldn't reach in and take out the gas vent or the smart link (if it's in there) but they're all parts of the weapon, and are all accounted for somewhere. That's more what I was saying. But we're in accord, then, that it's incredibly important to divorce the two so people are saying "I steal the gun" and not "I steal a slot from his MP." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Which is one of those wacky' date=' broken things in HERO - it would make way MORE sense to not buy any of those things as a Multipower. Much easier to say: "DM, can I get a cop belt and all the hangers and holsters and bits so that I can carry my pistol, grapple & flashlight around easily?" Me: "Ayup."[/quote'] I probably wouldn't build them as a MultiPower either. But the option is there, which is the cool thing about the system - it doesn't say "Oh, and you can't use this SFX Here." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? ahem... Rarrr!!! It's all in how you define the MP - 1 object or a series of objects. It's worth the same limitation on the Power AFAIC. Oh, I gotta vote for my namesake! Oh, no! There goes Tokyo! (Card made by Dr. A.) OH, and AFAIKR, if the slots and pool are to be the same object, they *must* take the exact same limitation(s). One thing to point out about making the slots/pool diferent foci is that the DEF of a focus is equal to the biggest power's Active Points/5. Unless it has a defenseive power, then it can use that in place of this DEF. (slight edit) Actually, in the case of a single object for the whole MP, the slots must have all the limitations that are taken on the pool, but can have additional ones on their own (like the dial-an-ammo gun -- each "ammo" has it's own charges). And usually, the only way to take a limitation on the pool is to take it on *all* the slots. So if you have a small power in the same gadget as a big power, the small one gets the benefit of being harder to damage because of the DEF granted by the bigger power. If they're seperate, it would only have it's own, smaller DEF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? How do you grab one slot of an OAF? If it's an Obvious Accessible Focus' date=' then ... well, dammit, you're picking up an [i']object.[/i] This is something I've beaten my players about the head & neck over. It seems the one 'fatal flaw' in hero is that people don't divorce the mechanics from the SFX. When you're in game, you shouldn't be thinking "Okay, I grab his OAF and then get a full write up from the DM..." No. "I grab his gun" "I grab his wand" "I grab his... never mind." Whichever it is, while I'm sure we can come up with an example where you'd steal "one slot" but it hurts my brain thinking about it. BOO CRAZY MECHANICS DISCUSSION! HOORAY BEER! Multi (X) Big bag of guns OIF: Several OAF's Slot one OAF :UZI.......etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstarfire Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? I did actually have things right' date=' but got into an argument with a convincing player [/quote'] I try to avoid those at all costs. Unfortunately since most of my fellow players at least as mentally agile as I am, that's not possible, so I just try to be the convincing player as often as not. *G* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Fair enough, but it isn't something that would happen all that often, and again, I'm talking about divorcing the ruling from the SFX. "I grab his crossbow, and I grab his explosive arrows!" wouldn't, for me, represent "grabbing one slot." You can get any old set of bolts to go with it (crossbow BOLTS, or quarrels, you dweeb). The important thing is that you grabbed the crossbow. Or. You could grab his quiver and leave the crossbow out of it. Then what have I done? Stolen all the charges to his MP? Its all a matter opf perspective. In Heroic games, its not much of an issue. In superheroic "pay points for everything" games, it becomes important to have enough options to do whatever the heck you are imagining. Heres another "Steals a Slot, not the whole MP" example. D&D style Magic MP. Big reserve, Variable Limitatin (+1 or more) All slots required to take a set of limits from the list that equal or exceed the variable limit. If you take away the mages Expendable IAF bat guano, then he can't lob off any more fireballs. Doesn't do squat to his other spells, unless they also need guano, of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Yes, as I said, I see it, but I just would never explain it that way. I think you're absolutely right in terms of raw mechanics - but I still don't think I would ever support a PC saying "I steal his IIF!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Yes' date=' as I said, I see it, but I just would never explain it [i']that way.[/i] I think you're absolutely right in terms of raw mechanics - but I still don't think I would ever support a PC saying "I steal his IIF!" Oh, duhhhhh Yeah, totally. I am in the "I try and cleave the bastich's head off" school rather than "I aim my 2d6 HKA at his location 5" camp myself. EDIT: I just had an apostrophy. Good Hero GM's are translators. Input Plain English directive. Translate to HERO. Process action according to rules. Translate outcome back to plain english. Output results in Plain English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? Yes, exactly, and that's why I repped you, and that's precisely what I'm talking about, and what I've been talking about, and what I try to do. Get past the mechanics (despite the fact that they're there for everyone to see) and simply describe the action as it goes down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threnody Posted August 13, 2006 Report Share Posted August 13, 2006 Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't? BOO CRAZY MECHANICS DISCUSSION! HOORAY BEER! I'll drink to that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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