Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

[Checkmate]

Okay let's say I have this multipower:

 

60 Point pool

3u 12d6 EB (OAF -1)

3u 30/30 Force Field (OAF -1)

 

Can I have both of these powers on at the same time?

[sbarron]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Nope. You only have 60 active points available in the MP. Since you made these ultras, and both require 60 AP to operate, you could only use one at a time.

 

If you hadn't made them ultras, then you could use them both, but at a power level that added up to 60 active points. Like say 15/15 FF and 6d6 EB.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Okay so even though they're only 30 REAL points, they are 60 Active so they can't be used at the same time. Now does the same apply to VPP?

 

60 pt VPP

12d6 EB OAF -1 (pretend my GM let me)

30/30 FF OAF -1

 

Could I use both of those at the same time?

[Rapier]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Okay so even though they're only 30 REAL points, they are 60 Active so they can't be used at the same time. Now does the same apply to VPP?

 

60 pt VPP

12d6 EB OAF -1 (pretend my GM let me)

30/30 FF OAF -1

 

Could I use both of those at the same time?

 

Again, No. The MP and VPP are used to set aside a certain number of active points. Those active points can only be used by one power at a time.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Hmm man I was POSITIVE VPP's went by real cost. You couldn't have any powers with active points over the pool, but you could have as many active as REAL points allowed.

 

Welp looks like I titled the thread wrong. I was right about MP's it was VPP's I didn't understand.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

I'm with you Checkmate. IDHMBIFOM, but I'm also POSITIVE a VPP can have as many powers simultaneously active as you have Real Points. I believe a 60 pt pool VPP can have 2x 60-AP powers active at the same time if both have -1 lims.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Again' date=' No. The MP and VPP are used to set aside a certain number of active points. Those active points can only be used by one power at a time.[/quote']

 

Actually, you are mistaken.

 

Going back to the stated example (which left out some important details)

 

60 pt VPP

12d6 EB OAF -1 (pretend my GM let me)

30/30 FF OAF -1

 

Assuming:

60 point Reserve

15 point Control Cost (All Slots OAF -1)

 

You then can have both:

12d6 EB (60 active, 30 Real)

and

Force Field 30/30 Pd/Ed (60 active, 30 Real)

active at the same time.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

I'm not sure you're correct Raiper, but I can't find where it specifically says for sure.

 

In an example of a gadget pool it says the character has a 2d6HKA (OAF), 8" flight (OAF), and 5/5 Armor (OAF), which adds up to 30 REAL points. Now it doesn't explicitly say he can use all 3 at the same time, but since flight and armor are included, I assume he could.

[Nevenall]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Okay so even though they're only 30 REAL points, they are 60 Active so they can't be used at the same time. Now does the same apply to VPP?

 

60 pt VPP

12d6 EB OAF -1 (pretend my GM let me)

30/30 FF OAF -1

 

Could I use both of those at the same time?

 

Yes, in a VPP you can use both powers.

 

In a VPP you "spend" your Pool Points like Real Points to build a set of powers, the restriction being that you can't build any power with more active points then you have pool points.

With a VPP you could build ten different 60 active point powers and use them all at once, as long as they all cost 10 real points.

That's why VPPs are more expensive then MPs.

 

 

Man, always the last to get there.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

People have pointed out that yes you can in a VPP.

 

That is the biggest difference between the MP and VPP

 

A multipower's reserve is the total number of active points the Multipower can use at once.

A VPP reserve is the maximum number of real points you can use at once - with the caveat that no single power has active points greater than the pool reserve.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Okay let's say I have this multipower:

 

60 Point pool

3u 12d6 EB (OAF -1)

3u 30/30 Force Field (OAF -1)

 

Can I have both of these powers on at the same time?

Maybe. It depends on how you're actually buying this MP. I get the feeling that you wrote it up wrong. If both slots have OAF, then the reserve can also take a -1 lim, so two different MPs seem to fit your description:

 

One:

30 60 Point Pool, OAF -1

3u 12d6 EB (OAF -1)

3u 30/30 Force Field (OAF -1)

Total cost: 36 points - in this case, no, you can't use both slots at the same time.

 

Two:

60 120 Point Pool, OAF -1

3u 12d6 EB (OAF -1)

3u 30/30 Force Field (OAF -1)

Total cost: 66 points - in this case, yes, you can use both slots at the same time.

 

And Hyper-Man is correct that you can use both slots at the same time in the VPP that he wrote up. And even if you didn't include the OAF limitation on the Control Cost (but still had it on the slots), you could still use them both at the same time. Thusly:

 

60 point Reserve

30 point Control Cost

 

12d6 EB, OAF (60 active, 30 Real)

Force Field 30/30 Pd/Ed, OAF (60 active, 30 Real)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Excellent clarification Phil!

 

Of course, now I have nothing to add to this conversation...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Excellent clarification Phil!

 

Of course, now I have nothing to add to this conversation...

 

I'm in the same boat - so I just Repped him.

[Checkmate]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Maybe. It depends on how you're actually buying this MP. I get the feeling that you wrote it up wrong. If both slots have OAF, then the reserve can also take a -1 lim, so two different MPs seem to fit your description:

 

One:

30 60 Point Pool, OAF -1

3u 12d6 EB (OAF -1)

3u 30/30 Force Field (OAF -1)

Total cost: 36 points - in this case, no, you can't use both slots at the same time.

 

Two:

60 120 Point Pool, OAF -1

3u 12d6 EB (OAF -1)

3u 30/30 Force Field (OAF -1)

Total cost: 66 points - in this case, yes, you can use both slots at the same time.

 

I was trying to keep things simple, and guess I made it TOO simple. Number one is what I was thinking of but didn't add the -1 to the MP because it isn't required.

 

Thank you all, I did actually have things right, but got into an argument with a convincing player

[Vorsch]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

To limit the MP the OAF whould have to be the same, ie couldnt have OAF gun and OAF shield.

 

Somone could disam the gun but by rights you should have acces to shield slot.

 

MP lims are tricky to balance.

 

My above comment probabily isint stated explicitly in the rules but im sure in gets in by the lim not being a lim gets no points rule.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

To limit the MP the OAF whould have to be the same, ie couldnt have OAF gun and OAF shield.

 

Somone could disam the gun but by rights you should have acces to shield slot.

 

MP lims are tricky to balance.

 

My above comment probabily isint stated explicitly in the rules but im sure in gets in by the lim not being a lim gets no points rule.

 

Technically - true and not true.

 

If you define the Focus Limitation as "Must have -X of Focus Limitation" then it could be a gun, a shield, a flashlight, a different focus for each slot. (This is a classic Utility Belt Multipower)

 

But if you defined the Focus Limitation as "Crossbow" then everything is in the Crossbow Focus.

[Silbeg]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Technically - true and not true.

 

If you define the Focus Limitation as "Must have -X of Focus Limitation" then it could be a gun, a shield, a flashlight, a different focus for each slot. (This is a classic Utility Belt Multipower)

 

But if you defined the Focus Limitation as "Crossbow" then everything is in the Crossbow Focus.

 

Good point. This is one of those occassions where you can get advantage out of an SFX. Note, however, that the GM is perfectly within his rights to say that by taking one Focus in an MP, that much of the MP is unavailable until you retrieve the Focus (or VPP, or whatever).

 

I would probably rule that if you buy the MP Reserve with the limitation, then taking one slot voids at least the Active Points of the stolen power from the Reserve. If you don't buy the Reserve with the limitation, then the individual slots' powers' foci can be stolen without affecting the MP as a whole.

 

This, then, would be a good reason not to buy the reserve with a lim!

[Checkmate]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Silbeg,

There is this exact example in 5ER book. Pg 322 for Multipowers (under losing powers) and pg 325 for VPP (again under losing powers).

[Threnody]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Howdy!

 

Here's the simple version:

 

The pool of a Multipower is Active Points to distribute among pre-made powers.

 

The pool of a VPP is Real Points to distribute among any-old powers ('less you've restricted the VPP).

 

The pool of a EC is how many points you take off 'en the Active Cost of the pre-made powers afore applying the Limitations.

 

Simple, right?

[Mike W]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Technically - true and not true.

 

If you define the Focus Limitation as "Must have -X of Focus Limitation" then it could be a gun, a shield, a flashlight, a different focus for each slot. (This is a classic Utility Belt Multipower)

 

But if you defined the Focus Limitation as "Crossbow" then everything is in the Crossbow Focus.

 

Also note that the typical gadget pool, while it may require that each slot take a focus limit, generally does not get the full benefit of the focus limit itself because it is made up of a large number of smaller foci and therefore more difficult to completely take away.

 

As for how much I would deem "unavailable" if an item was taken, it would depend on the definition of the pool. A typical gadget pool, you can always go back to base and pick up more stuff - but I might make that "slot" unavailable for a while if it was unusual. In other words, you can pick up more throwing stars easily, but replacing the sleeves in a ninja suit takes more time.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

I'm in the same boat - so I just Repped him.

 

Thanks. I unfortunately must spread some around first...

[Silbeg]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

Silbeg,

There is this exact example in 5ER book. Pg 322 for Multipowers (under losing powers) and pg 325 for VPP (again under losing powers).

Ah... good point!

 

Of course, these example still are bound by SFX.

 

Example.. a quiver of trick arrows may be a MP with an OAF, with different slots for the different arrows. If the quiver is taken, then ALL slots are gone.

 

The same would hold true for a bandoleer of knives or grenades. SFX should really reign here.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

For an example of Focus (all powers must take -x of this limitation) see the write up for Wayland Talos in Evil Unleashed.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

If you have an OAF gun and an OAF shield, then by what prevents you from using them at the same time? If you've bought them as two ultra slots in a MP such that you can't, how do you justify that? There are ways. Maybe the MP's OAF is a magic amulet that summons a gun or a shield of mystical substance which disappears when you switch to the other one.

 

But if you want a gun (one that "behaves" like a physical, one-handed weapon) and a shield (that also behaves like a physical object), then you probably shouldn't buy them as mutually exclusive slots in an MP. Under most circumstances, even a comic-book-physics gun and a comic-book-physics shield ought to be usable at the same time. So buy them that way. The build should match the concept.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thought I understood MP, maybe I don't?

 

If you have an OAF gun and an OAF shield, then by what prevents you from using them at the same time? If you've bought them as two ultra slots in a MP such that you can't, how do you justify that? There are ways. Maybe the MP's OAF is a magic amulet that summons a gun or a shield of mystical substance which disappears when you switch to the other one.

 

But if you want a gun (one that "behaves" like a physical, one-handed weapon) and a shield (that also behaves like a physical object), then you probably shouldn't buy them as mutually exclusive slots in an MP. Under most circumstances, even a comic-book-physics gun and a comic-book-physics shield ought to be usable at the same time. So buy them that way. The build should match the concept.

 

Maybe either or both gun and shield requires two hands to use effectively. Or maybe my character only has one hand! But I do agree the player should be able to explain why only one can be used at a time.

 

I would allow a MP with several weapons, all separate OAF's (as an example) to take a -1/2 limitation on the pool. In addition to reflecting the reduced, but not eliminated, limitation of these foci, it's also the same price break they would get on the pool with a -1 Variable Limitation, which would allow a choice of any limitation(s) totaling -1.

 

The FAQ says "no" to this, but I would allow the pool to take a -1/2 limitation for "Var lim -1" and each slot to take a -1 limitation for having fixed limitations which add up to -1.