Assumptions within HERO

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Another assumption made by HERO (and AFAIK, all RPG's that deal with fantasy, sci-fi, superheroes, or horror): that you can have a set of rules that is playable, realistic, and consistant at the same time, while allowing effects that violate the laws of physics. (desolidification, teleportation, matter creation/destruction, etc.)

 

I think part of the problem there is that the very concept of invulnerability is simply broken as far as HERO is concerned. The game isn't designed to support it.

That depends on what you mean by "invulnerability." Does invulnerability mean:

 

A) I can't be hurt by X - no matter the amount/power/intensity of X that exists within the campaign.

or

I can't be hurt by X - no matter the amount/power/intensity of X that can be created with the game rules.

 

Where X can be "everything" or one specific thing, or a group of things.

 

If it's A, then the system supports invulnerability quite well.

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

This is determined by the "level" in the campaign. HERO provides for running campaigns in which the PC's are not extraordinary individuals.

The BASIC character WITHOUT investment is ABOVE normal.

[Lucius]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Why does anyone assume a baseline character is Human, Makes X Dollars, Has 2 Arms & 2 Legs? Those are silly assumptions.

 

the systems assumes you have 100kg in Mass, 2 meters in Height/Length and are of Neutral Income (enough to survive). [and even those can be changed if needed]

 

Cave Hero the "income" might mean you've got a Spear to hunt with, nothing more. Certainly no dollar amount attached to it.

 

I think this is a valid point.

 

And Four Armed Being Hero may assume everyone has four arms in the game, so no need for anyone to pay for anything - that's baseline.

 

I don’t think this is.

 

You could also play Winged Being Hero, and give everyone 6” of free Flight as an “Everyman power” just as the standard rules assume you have 6” of Running for free.

 

You could play “Gargoyle Hero” and give everyone not only the Flight but a free hand to hand Killing Attack. If you don’t want those, you can take Physical Limitations to represent the lack, or “sell them back” like a lame hero selling off some Running.

 

None of that changes the fact that the basic game system assumes a humanoid form with only two arms and no wings or claws. Yes, you can VIOLATE the assumptions when you set up the ground rules for a given campaign, but that only highlights the fact that the assumptions are there to begin with.

 

Strange. Given most the assumptions aired here, I can clearly no longer assume that my assumptions about the rules bear much similarity to my own - almost none of the assumptions listed here would be valid in my games, or in most of those I have played in.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I’m curious. Can you elaborate on that?

 

Another assumption made by HERO (and AFAIK, all RPG's that deal with fantasy, sci-fi, superheroes, or horror): that you can have a set of rules that is playable, realistic, and consistant at the same time, while allowing effects that violate the laws of physics. (desolidification, teleportation, matter creation/destruction, etc.)

 

Good one! A major assumption there. “We assume that we can do the impossible!”

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a highly unlikely palindromedary

[Lemurion]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Another assumption made by HERO (and AFAIK, all RPG's that deal with fantasy, sci-fi, superheroes, or horror): that you can have a set of rules that is playable, realistic, and consistant at the same time, while allowing effects that violate the laws of physics. (desolidification, teleportation, matter creation/destruction, etc.)

 

 

That depends on what you mean by "invulnerability." Does invulnerability mean:

 

A) I can't be hurt by X - no matter the amount/power/intensity of X that exists within the campaign.

or

I can't be hurt by X - no matter the amount/power/intensity of X that can be created with the game rules.

 

Where X can be "everything" or one specific thing, or a group of things.

 

If it's A, then the system supports invulnerability quite well.

 

If it were A, yes. But neither quite fits my definition of "invulnerability," though B comes close and the difference may be almost one of semantics.

 

Invulnerability means "I can't be hurt by X." Period. End of Sentence. It's an absolute, and therefore has no qualifiers. One either is, or is not invulnerable.

 

I really enjoy playing HERO, especially Champions, but I have never felt that it handled absolutes all that well. All the flat cost powers feel a little off kilter to me, like poetry that doesn't quite scan.

[Robyn]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

The BASIC character WITHOUT investment is ABOVE normal.

 

I must confess, I don't know what you mean by "investment" in this context. I searched 5ER for "invest", but mostly found (forms of) investigation; I can, though, give you a citation for what I was thinking of:

 

Creating Details; The Importance Of The Player Characters

(page 544-545)

The final paragraph deals with PC's who are "completely unimportant".

 

The campaign might start out with average characters, then focus on character development until the campaign also developed right along with them, into a world where the PC's were powerful enough to affect things.

[schir1964]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I must confess' date=' I don't know what you mean by "investment" in this context. I searched 5ER for "invest", but mostly found (forms of) investigation; I can, though, give you a citation for what I was thinking of:[/quote']

Robyn, if you had just reread his initial post concernng this, it would have been obvious what he meant by "investment".

 

To put it more bluntly, "A normal character without any points spent at all is considered above average as far as normal is defined in Hero."

 

Hero clearly states that an average human has 8 for all the primary stats. Player characters start out with 10 in all their primary stats, hence, above average.

 

So the assumption that characters are exceptional (above average) would seem to be supported by the rules as they define them.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[yamamura]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Talking about absolute Digital HERO #28 has an article from Mr. Long on expanding Damage Reduction to the point of 100% Damage reduction. A simple (but expensive) way of expanding the rules to include an absolute. But I agree that the rules are difficult when it comes to absolute. Take spending 5 points in Unaging, does that automatically protect you against someone who has a transform ability (10 or 15 pts/level): younger person into older person? I have always said it does but one can argue it is not fair to the person paying for the transform at least twice if not three times the initial cost. So at five points at least in my game world you have an absolute.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Just because a character is exceptional, doesn't mean he matters for squat in the grande scheme of things.

 

So, PCs can be "exceptional" and still be "unimportant."

[ghost-angel]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

When I create I character I have:

 

a 100kg, 2m lump of clay that has a means of living that prevents starvation or other unnicieties (otherwise known as "average income"). And Mechanically 10s in all Physical/Mental characteristic stats. 6" of Land Locomotion; 2" Liquid Locomotion and I can hop.

 

The mere fact that "Baseline Human" has been defined as below me is irrelevant to the assumption that I am still a 100kg, 2m lump of clay.

 

If I shape my clay into "human" I am above average.

 

I guess it could be assumed I will automatically shape my clay into a human. But I think that's out of Familiarity Of Object vs Assumption Of System.

Or maybe they're indistinguishable.

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

If you don't shape it into a human, but you spend no points, you still have the functional equivalent of a human. There's no "switches" or "dials" in the base functionality. There's no need to purchase "sentience," "vision," "hearing," and other such attributes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

If you don't shape it into a human' date=' but you spend no points, you still have the functional equivalent of a human. There's no "switches" or "dials" in the base functionality. There's no need to purchase "sentience," "vision," "hearing," and other such attributes.[/quote']

 

I guess the assumption is we will use something with Human Attributes, as a good starting point since that's what we as players/designers have; and by consequence easily grok and go forward from there.

 

I don't still see why it has to be a "human shape" though.

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I guess the assumption is we will use something with Human Attributes, as a good starting point since that's what we as players/designers have; and by consequence easily grok and go forward from there.

 

I don't still see why it has to be a "human shape" though.

I don't think "shape" is or was the term, or at least not the term I've used. "Human template" is the term I (PS - rather myself and others) have used.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I don't think "shape" is or was the term' date=' or at least not the term I've used. "Human template" is the term I (PS - rather myself and others) have used.[/quote']

 

I assumed template implied shape.

 

 

my bad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

pun intended

[Robyn]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Robyn' date=' if you had just reread his initial post concernng this, it would have been obvious what he meant by "investment".[/quote']

 

Actually . . . none of his posts made it obvious. He did mention that someone (he thought Oddhat) had said it before, and I didn't check back on Oddhat's post at the time, but I did just now and even Oddhat's posts didn't explain it, just mention it. It took a bit more searching, to find Dust Raven articulating the exact difference.

[schir1964]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Oh well, I thought it was obvious that "investment" meant "no points spent", but I do tend to read all the posts so maybe the logical connection was already implied for me. (8^D)

 

At least now you understand.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Manic Typist]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I would hate for a thread I started to become a snarky thread. This was intended for the benefit of all, not mutual aggravation.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I would hate for a thread I started to become a snarky thread. This was intended for the benefit of all' date=' not mutual aggravation.[/quote']

 

True... good call. You've just happened to push some hot buttons with this topic. It has been a matter of... shall we say... nuanced discussion... many times in the past. It is actually a rather deep and complex issue that suffers from the inaccurracies of forum communication more than most topics. Note my long term sig line is something derived from one of the earlier discourses on the topic.

 

Deconstructing the axioms or assumptions of the game can seem like attacks on some of the sacred cows of Hero. Often those of us who have played for a long time have assumed certain aspects to be universal, and challenging them is like saying blue is red and stop means go. The particular sacred cows seem to be a varied as the number of posters. I know I have mine and I work hard to let go the emotional response I have to disagreements on them, but that isn't always possible.

[Robyn]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Oh well' date=' I thought it was obvious that "investment" meant "no points spent", but I do tend to read all the posts so maybe the logical connection was already implied for me. (8^D)[/quote']

 

I read them too, but I didn't recall anything from Oddhat's posts that had explained it, nor anything at all on "investments", so I guessed the answer could be found in 5ER. Failing to find it there, I continued working from the same context I had previously assumed:

 

Oddhat spent several posts detailing how HERO's assumptions are partially based on the superheroic genre it evolved from. When Zornwil referred back to something that he thought Oddhat had said, I recalled the detailed explanations, and assumed that this was what "exceptional" referred to: "super-heroic". Thus the clarification I interjected, attempting to point out that the HERO system does account for such differences, so it wouldn't count as an "Assumption within HERO".

 

At least now you understand.

 

Yes, and it was worth the time to be corrected. I didn't get it until you identified the assumption for me. Thanks.

[Robyn]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Take spending 5 points in Unaging' date=' does that automatically protect you against someone who has a transform ability (10 or 15 pts/level): younger person into older person?[/quote']

 

I would wonder about the SFX of that Unaging:

 

Are they so long-lived that even a thousand years won't make a difference?

(And the SFX of that Transform: does it add age in specific unit increments, or would it make the immortal another 100,000 years old?)

 

Or do they just not naturally age?

(Transform would be an unnatural cause.)

[Zed-F]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Since, in 99.9% of all HERO games, nobody is going to game out thousands of years of IC character history, I would say that the whole point of that particular LS, other than flavour, is precisely to render such characters immune to aging attacks. Any such transform should automatically have 'Not vs. LS: Immortal' by default, or else there is no reason for LS: Immortal to exist in the game to begin with. I imagine that any player that buys it for their PC will feel cheated if they are attacked with an age-based attack, and it works despite their LS.

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Since' date=' in 99.9% of all HERO games, nobody is going to game out thousands of years of IC character history, I would say that the whole point of that particular LS, other than flavour, is precisely to render such characters immune to aging attacks. Any such transform should automatically have 'Not vs. LS: Immortal' by default, or else there is no reason for LS: Immortal to exist in the game to begin with. I imagine that any player that buys it for their PC will feel cheated if they are attacked with an age-based attack, and it works despite their LS.[/quote']

That's interesting, to be honest I always felt it was more fantasy campaigns to differentiate the various races as well as for flavor purposes in any campaign, considering its low cost for what I (personally) would consider to be far too effective against such types of attacks, however unusual they might be (particularly as I don't see them as so extremely rare).

 

But maybe you're right. I just frankly never considered that.

 

And this is again why I think designers really should discuss intent and purpose.

[Lucius]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

When I create I character I have:

 

a 100kg, 2m lump of clay that has a means of living that prevents starvation or other unnicieties (otherwise known as "average income"). And Mechanically 10s in all Physical/Mental characteristic stats. 6" of Land Locomotion; 2" Liquid Locomotion and I can hop.

 

The mere fact that "Baseline Human" has been defined as below me is irrelevant to the assumption that I am still a 100kg, 2m lump of clay.

 

If I shape my clay into "human" I am above average.

 

I guess it could be assumed I will automatically shape my clay into a human. But I think that's out of Familiarity Of Object vs Assumption Of System.

Or maybe they're indistinguishable.

 

Okay, maybe it doesn't have legs. It does have some form of ground and water movement.

 

If it did not take a Physical Limitation, it has at least two arms. If it did not take Extra Limbs it has no more than two arms. Or tentacles or whatever. The default assumption is two manipulatory appendages.

 

If it did not take a Physical Limitation such as No Depth Perception, it probably has at least two eyes. It can have more, but unless it took an Enhanced Sense (such as 360 degree Vision) they all have to be facing "forward" (however this shape defines forward.)

 

It may or may not have ears, but it hears in the normal human range.

 

 

 

It may or may not have hairs, but if you're trying to claim that it is not assumed that the "standard" character is in fact a Human Being, I think you're splitting them.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks the default form should have four legs and two heads....

[Lemurion]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

The default assumption is (IMHO) that the default character is functionally equivalent in HERO terms to an adult human in the real world. Which is to say that insofar as HERO models the Universe, the default character models an adult human and so has equivalent capabilities.

 

Having said that I would more consider most of what has been discussed to be premises, whether stated or unstated, rather than assumptions. But that may be semantics.

[schir1964]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Just because a character is exceptional, doesn't mean he matters for squat in the grande scheme of things.

 

So, PCs can be "exceptional" and still be "unimportant."

I can't quite understand what how this relates to your initial post.

 

The discussion has been about what the design of the Hero System was intended for.

 

Zornwil and others thnk that the source material (action/adventure stories) is what the Hero System was designed to allow someone to mimic.

 

Therefore, one of the assumptions put forth was that the Standard Character, one which has no points spent on it, are above average.

 

As to whether the Character is "Important" or "Unimportant" to the storyline or not, the source material itself presumes the Character is important to the storyline. How this relates to the Hero System is that it is the responsibility of the Player and the GM to make sure that the character is important the storyline, not the game system.

 

A player could create a character that is comparable to Thor, but unless the Player and GM run the storyline so that the character has an effect, this character could still be considered unimportant.

 

The Watchers in the comics at most times are unimportant to the storyline of Spider Man. But when they actually intervene, then they become most important, almost to the point that they are the storyline.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Manic Typist]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I can't quite understand what how this relates to your initial post.

 

The discussion has been about what the design of the Hero System was intended for.

 

 

 

It doesn't, actually. There was a minor debate over the "exceptionalness" (believe me, I know that isn't a word. At least, I hope it isn't...) of the characters and how that related to their starting stats. I viewed the debate as a miscommunication due to differing concepts of "exceptional" and "important." So I tossed that in as an aside, hoping to course correct the thread drift. I am not sure if I succeeded, but that little dispute seems to have died down.

 

What the discussion has been about, and what the thread was originally intending are actually two separate things. Closely related, but seperate.

 

Feel free to express your opinion, humble or otherwise.