Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

[Willow]

For my upcoming HEROFIST (HERO Feng Shui/Shadowfist) I'm considering doing away with killing attacks and turning everything into normal attacks.

 

Pros:

*Fists, clubs, swords, and guns are all supposed to be more or less equally effective in the source material.

*I want to encourage the PCs having higher defenses and being able to plow through mooks.

*I find DCs easier to add/subtract for normal damage.

*My players and I enjoy rolling buckets of dice.

 

Con:

Defenses may become underpriced, as buying Resistant is unnecessary.

 

Other thoughts? Has anyone gone ahead and done this and have it work out well or blow up in their face?

[Lucius]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

Let us know how it plays out.

 

You're not the first to suggest that Hero doesn't exactly "need" Killing Attacks. Personally, I'd probably have made guns and knives into some form of Attacks Vs. Limited Defense, but it's a question of what kind of game you want to play.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to eliminate the Crab Cannon.

[Tom]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

I tried it once when I was first thinking of running a game for my kids and it worked ok, though you may want to tweak starting char points downwards. If there are no KAs, the only rational way to buy defenses are as straight PD/ED rather than bothering with Force Field or Armor (both can be simulated by normal defenses with lims such as focus, visible, or costs END).

 

The question is whether or not you want to keep relative levels of effectiveness the 'same' as in a similar game played without doing away with kills. If so, you'll either want to reduce the points your players have to spend, or limit them on what they can buy (insist on the points using to give the chars more depth rather than more raw brute force). The plus to doing this is you can use published material with less tweaking since you don't need to compensate for the cost savings the PCs had in not needing resistant defenses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

Ah, it feels like I'm home

 

We may have shot the breeze about this one once or twice int he past. I personally would be disinclined to do away with killing attacks. Given that a normal can muster a 5 1/2d6 Haymaker, that would make a normal punch as or more potent than most handguns.

 

I appreciate that heroic individuals attacks may be as or more effective than real weapons in the source material, but doing it this way makes guns practically harmless (OK, I exagerate - but not by much).

 

How about rolling killing attacks as normal attacks, but applying the result as if it were a killing attack: so a 2d6 KA becomes a 6d6 attack, averages 6 BODY and 21 STUN (and the average range is reasonable unlike KAs), which apply to resistant defences (or normal defences for STUN if you have any resistant defence) just like a killing attack would.

 

That seems to address most of your concerns and a level or two of combat luck should mean that FOR HEROES a gun is no more fearsome than a martial punch.

[gojira]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

... I personally would be disinclined to do away with killing attacks. Given that a normal can muster a 5 1/2d6 Haymaker' date=' that would make a normal punch as or more potent than most handguns....[/quote']

 

Bingo. One way to do what willow wished is just to make killing attacks uncommon. Encourage sword masters to use a wooden sword rather than the real thing, and encourage other players to do also eschew killing attacks even if they have them. This in my opinion makes the players even more heroic, because even though they could choose to uses deadly attacks like the villian, they don't.

 

Then make sure that killing attacks are used occasionally (but not too often) against the players. I think anything really sharp or pointy should be a killing attack, so swords, spears, arrows are all KAs. Fire and boiling oil should be a killing attack. So should big claws and big teeth, so tigers, demons and sharks have KAs.

 

Then have most mooks use blunt, peasent type weapons. Flails, staves, clubs weighted with (blunt) metal studs, etc. Have ninjas and other sophistcated fighters use diversion attacks. Smoke grenades, NND nerve strikes, chocking dust, etc. Back this up with laws prohibiting delibrate use of deadly force, so using less lethal weapons feels right.

 

It might take a bit of work and research to come up with enough crazy non-lethal weapons, but I think it'll be worth it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

We may have shot the breeze about this one once or twice int he past. I personally would be disinclined to do away with killing attacks. Given that a normal can muster a 5 1/2d6 Haymaker, that would make a normal punch as or more potent than most handguns.

 

I appreciate that heroic individuals attacks may be as or more effective than real weapons in the source material, but doing it this way makes guns practically harmless (OK, I exagerate - but not by much).

 

How about rolling killing attacks as normal attacks, but applying the result as if it were a killing attack: so a 2d6 KA becomes a 6d6 attack, averages 6 BODY and 21 STUN (and the average range is reasonable unlike KAs), which apply to resistant defences (or normal defences for STUN if you have any resistant defence) just like a killing attack would.

 

We've definitely discussed this one more than once. I'd take your aproach and build on it, however. Subtract 1 STUN per d6 rolled (or make each die minus 1 with a 1 minimum) and alow KA's to do 2 BOD on a roll of 5 or 6. This equalizes the averages to the current KA, so a KA averages more BOD and les STUN than a normal attack.

[Lucius]

Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

Bingo. One way to do what willow wished is just to make killing attacks uncommon. Encourage sword masters to use a wooden sword rather than the real thing, and encourage other players to do also eschew killing attacks even if they have them. This in my opinion makes the players even more heroic, because even though they could choose to uses deadly attacks like the villian, they don't.

 

Just one problem with this. An attack can be deadly without being in mechanical terms a “Killing Attack.” For that matter, a Killing Attack is not necessarily deadly.

 

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

 

A Normal Attack that does a lot of BODy is likely to kill someone. A Normal Attack that does little BODy is unlikely to kill anyone. A Normal Attack that does only STUN can’t kill anyone.

 

A Killing Attack that does a lot of BODy is likely to kill someone. A Killing Attack that does little BODy is unlikely to kill anyone. A Killing Attack that does only STUN can’t kill anyone.

 

The innocent bystander dying of shock on the sidewalk doesn’t know or care if what hit him was a Normal Attack or a Killing Attack, in game terms. It could be a 10d6 Normal Energy Blast, but it’s still a “Killing Attack” in the only terms that matter to his potential widow and orphans – it’s the Attack that Killed him (or will, if that paramedic fails his roll.)

 

Refraining from using a “Killing Attack” as defined by the Game System doesn’t make you “more heroic” or more moral or safer. If your objection to knives and guns and swords is “You could KILL someone with that!” then you should remember that the exact same objection applies to the average superheroic energy blast or martial arts attack. In fact, if you think 10d6 Energy Blasts are just dandy, you should have no objection to my character’s 2d6 Killing Attack sword – for one thing, if I miss my stroke I am less likely to hit an unintended target than some guy flinging bolts of energy around at range.

 

 

In any case, none of this has to do with “what Willow wished.” I think Willow is quite clear on what Willow wishes, and what we’re talking about here isn’t it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Nobody here wished for a palindromedary, but here’s one anyway.

[Dreadnought]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

How I'd do it is make it so that all weapons wielded by unskilled hands (ie. anyone you want the PCs to be able to deal with normally) is a normal attack. Then, the PCs have a much easier time dealing with mooks, even if they use swords, but the villian with the sword is still a major problem for anyone without rockhard skin.

 

This has the added benefit of making the game more like an action movie (like Feng Shui is supposed to be). For the majority of the adventure, the heroes are getting their action hero on as they don't have to worry as much about the mooks' guns, but when they run into the villian, they start actually having to worry about his mystic sword. This makes the big challenges a little tougher, and thus, more rewarding.

[bwdemon]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again: just make it an AVLD (resistant defense) worth +1/4 or +1/2 and the problem of the poor KA mechanic goes away.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

I think there should be no problem in doing that. It alleviates the STUN lotto problem of killing attacks so combat should be more consistent. This may or may not be desirable for you, I dunno.

 

If you still feel PD/ED are too cheap, then you could adjust their figured formulas and charge 2 points each instead of 1.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

We've definitely discussed this one more than once. I'd take your aproach and build on it' date=' however. Subtract 1 STUN per d6 rolled (or make each die minus 1 with a 1 minimum) and alow KA's to do 2 BOD on a roll of 5 or 6. This equalizes the averages to the current KA, so a KA averages more BOD and les STUN than a normal attack.[/quote']

 

That is the simplest, most elegant adjustment that I've seen to accomplish this. I'm afraid I'll have to owe you Rep for it, though.

 

In this case the Stun Multiplier Advantage would simply require adding one (or more) STUN to each die of damage. That would also allow for a Stun Multiplier Advantage for Normal Damage attacks, too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

That is the simplest' date=' most elegant adjustment that I've seen to accomplish this. I'm afraid I'll have to owe you Rep for it, though. [/quote']

 

The idea doesn't originate with me. I've just seen it enough and I like it as a simple solution.

 

IIRC, Phil Fleischman posted it first.

 

In this case the Stun Multiplier Advantage would simply require adding one (or more) STUN to each die of damage. That would also allow for a Stun Multiplier Advantage for Normal Damage attacks' date=' too.[/quote']

 

I don't think we ever looked seriously about adjusted Stun Multiples under this approach. I prefer the idea that KA's do less STUN and more BOD than normal attacks. If I wanted to decrease STUN, limit dome dice to BOD ony. To enhance STUN, limit some dice to STUN only.

 

Adding 1.5 STUN to each die for each level of Increased SM and you get pretty close. 12d6 would average 48 with +1 SM and 66 with +2, and 18 more for each additional +1. A 4d6 KA presently averages 49 with +1 SM and 63 with +2, and 14 more with each added +1, so STUN rises a bit faster under this approach.

 

A 4d6 KA averages 37.33 now (2.67 x 14). Dropping it to 1d6-2 makes it 28, 1d6-3 makes it 21 and it hits 16 at 1d6-4 and 14 at lower levels. I'd just subtract 1 more from each die for each added -1, with STUN becoming 1/die at -4 (or the same limitation as "1x STUN Multiple");.

[Lucius]

Re: Getting Rid of Killing Attacks

 

I've said it before' date=' I'll say it again: just make it an AVLD (resistant defense) worth +1/4 or +1/2 and the problem of the poor KA mechanic goes away.[/quote']

 

The problem is, making defense Resistant isn't an advantage. It works more like an adder, actually. It's "advantage like" in that the number of points required to make X amount of defense resistant is actually 1/2 X (i.e. making 10 pts resistant costs 5 pts) but it is "adder like" in that those points are added to the base cost before advantages are applied.

 

For this reason, I think Killing should be an adder just like Resistant effectively is - Turning a certain amount of attack into Killing should cost some fraction of the attack's base cost, added to the base cost before advantages are applied, just like Resistant.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat my tagline?