A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

[Vondy]

Okay, here's a weird one from a build perspective.

 

I'm working on a setting in which there is no magic in the waking world. However, the waking world can be subtly (and sometimes dramatically) altered from within the dream. There is a cult of dreamers trained to do "dream working." There are several dream states, with different impacts on the story and play. This part I'm not having any trouble with (yet).

 

Here's the problem: There is one way to alter the waking world while one is awake: dream interpretation. The principle I'm applying is "the meaning follows the interpretation." So a dream cultist with the right skill (Dream Interpretaion: 9+INT/5) can apply an interpretation to the dream and their interpretation becomes true.

 

There are limits. They can't retcon the firmly established events in the past (though they could prophecy the return of someone assumed rather than known to be dead), for instance, but they could end up "reading the signs" correctly (essentially a burly deduction roll), or they could "prophecy" something and have those events come to pass. Now, mostly this is a flavor thing, but I'm wondering if anyone - beyond meta-mechanics - has an idea of how to build it?

 

Just a skill? (the "magic" system is skill based, so that wouldn't prove to be a balance issue).

[L. Marcus]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

What a neat idea!

 

If the rest of the system is Skill based, then this should be no different. But to actually write it out as a power . . . !

 

Hmmm . . . A Multipower, perhaps? With a Summons slot (for the "presumed dead" returning deal) and a Dimensional Travel Slot (for changing the world in other ways) . . . Other ways may soon become apparent.

[Dust Raven]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

Sounds like XDM to the future where what I've predicted happens.

 

Actually, assuming this doesn't have that large an impact on the campaign, and other dream interpreters can override a fortelling with their own interpretations, you might be good to go with just a Skill, and making it a Skill vs Skill of two interpreters have/desire a different interpretation of the same dream.

[Lucius]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

That's a tough one, because it is a truly "reality-shaping" power. That is, this is the sort of thing that seems to call for a Variable Power Pool if it calls for anything, and it would be a pretty huge pool at that. I assume we are talking about "seven years of feast and seven years of famine" type effects here?

 

This sounds like the kind of thing you either solve with a skill roll and a handwave, or you end up building a huge, messy, complicated, high-active-points cosmic power and then bury it in assorted nuanced limitations.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary struggles to the surface, gasping for breath, finally breaking free of all those assorted nuanced limitations someone tried to bury it in...

[David Johnston]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

There probably ought to be some kind of guideline as to how much penalty to the "interpretation roll" a given kind of reality tampering will create but I can't essay it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

It depends whether it is cause or effect. If cause, then I'd go with XDM, which I personally dislike as a solution to an extreme degree.

 

However, it could just be a form of precognition - afterall you can only interpret what is there - assuming a dream can only have a range of meanings and not 'any' meaning.

 

You may want to give the character an uncontrolled VPP, which the GM sets to maximise the chances of the interpretation coming true. RSR (dream interpretation).....could work.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

...or overall skill levels (RSR/dream interpretation, only to make the dream happen)

[gojira]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

Actually' date=' assuming this doesn't have that large an impact on the campaign, and other dream interpreters can override a fortelling with their own interpretations, you might be good to go with just a Skill, and making it a Skill vs Skill of two interpreters have/desire a different interpretation of the same dream.[/quote']

 

This is a very good point. It all depends on how the GM is going to have this power work, but this is one way of looking at the Dream Interpretation skill. I think perhaps the best way of answering this question is: How powerful does the GM think this makes the players? If your gut reaction is that a skill roll covers it, then that might be the best answer.

 

OTOH, ask yourself how powerful these characters would be if they were dropped into a 1920's Pulp campaign, or a 2010 Super Heroes campaign. If they seem to require a Power for those campaigns, maybe a Power construct is required to keep everything in balance...

 

However, it could just be a form of precognition - afterall you can only interpret what is there - assuming a dream can only have a range of meanings and not 'any' meaning.

 

You may want to give the character an uncontrolled VPP, which the GM sets to maximise the chances of the interpretation coming true. RSR (dream interpretation).....could work.....

 

This is almost exactly what I was going to suggest.

 

VPP, Once per day (at most) -2, no conscious control (GM sets the limits, decides if interpretation is possible, players don't know outcome) -1/2, RSR -1/2. A player could get a 100 VPP with Precog, Retrocog, Clairvoyance, and Transform for about 22 points.

 

What I think I would do next is make this VPP an "Unusual Background" a la GURPS. Anyone can have the Dream Interpretation skill, but only those with points in this VPP actually get results. The VPP is not open to just any PC or NPC (GM's call regarding background, etc.).

 

 

I think the final thing to consider is the world spanning implications of this power. As everyone knows, cats are the most powerful of all dreamers. Any campaign were this power is real, all PCs and NPCs should start their day by making sure their cat has fresh food and water, and a warm place to lay in the sun. (And all PCs and NPCs will have cats.) The PCs should not understand why they do this (at least at first), but the implications of not performing this ritual are just to terrible to contemplate.

[Vondy]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

I'm just going to write up potential uses and skill roll modifiers, thanks.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

You should read up on "lucid dreaming", which is basically being concious while dreaming. That would have some serious impact in such a world. You could make it a skill, probably based on EGO. But, then, you're getting a lot of power for just a few points, so maybe a VPP with RSR. Good luck.

[zornwil]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

It sounds like a form of Clairsentience to me with a limitation based around what someone dreamt, but it depends of course on the game purpose.

[gojira]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

Ah... no cats? Dang it.

[L. Marcus]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

. . . So . . . New avatar, David? Feel any . . . Connection to Col. Jessup?

[Vondy]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

. . . So . . . New avatar' date=' David? Feel any . . . Connection to Col. Jessup? [/quote']

 

Son, we live in a world with walls... /screeching halt.

 

Ahem.

 

Go Here.

 

What truly amuses me is that people find this avatar more disturnbing than my regular one.

[Vondy]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

Ah... no cats? Dang it.

 

Well, not that kind of cat, anyways.

[Vondy]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

It sounds like a form of Clairsentience to me with a limitation based around what someone dreamt' date=' but it depends of course on the game purpose.[/quote']

 

In Talmudic jargon - adaraba (exactly the opposite!). The dream follows the interpretation!

 

Some quick background notes on kinds of dreams:

 

1) Lucid dreaming, in which you can travel the dreamworld and interact with other dreamers and its denziens. This is, effectively, the spiritual table over which the corporeal table-cloth is draped. With the exception of other dreamers, what you see there is how your mind interperets that world - not necessarily what the world really is.

 

2) Normative dreams, which contain cultural or personal symbols, and may occassionally contain elements that come from a "collective consciousness" of dreamers, or from the spirits of the departed, or the denziens I mentioned above. These fall into two categories: dreams that reveal facts about the present or past, and dreams that potentially relate to the future.

Lucid Dreaming one is not in the scope of this post. Normative dreams are our focus. For this ability to work someone has to tell you their dream and then you interperet to get one of the following effects:

 

1) A deduction roll based on the narration of the dream to interperet the symbolism in the dream, either to reveal something about the dreamers physical or spritual being (uncanny!); or to reveal something that the dreamer could not possibly have known without external impetus (spooky!).

 

2) You fortell the future, but via not claristience/pregonition, which is reactive. Rather, what the dream means is undecided until you impose your interperetation on it. This is active. The fundamental principle is that your words

are

what the dream means

.

At the same time, your interpretation:

 

1) Reasonably fit the gist of the dream, world, etc.

2) Leave room for how these events occur (so not too specific).

3) Leave time for the events to occur in a natural timeframe.

4) Not contradict established fact (For instance, if we saw

ploni

beheaded fortelling his return is right out).

And sometimes (esp. for NPCs) it may be that the interpretation fits the "prophecy rule" - The prophets words are true, but don't be so certain you understand exactly what he means, or how it will come to pass.

 

At the same time, I see this as being more of a flaor ability - and one that has more impact in a story sense than a combat or mechanical sense. Its a culture with a powerful fascination and belief in dreams, and one that has had experience with people who have an uncanny ability to get tot he heart of those dreams.

 

Which is why I'm thinking it should be a skill rather than a power. I can lost out penalties for the kinds of things players are likely to do and leave it at that.

[Vondy]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

 

Actually, assuming this doesn't have that large an impact on the campaign, and other dream interpreters can override a fortelling with their own interpretations, you might be good to go with just a Skill, and making it a Skill vs Skill of two interpreters have/desire a different interpretation of the same dream.

 

The first interpretation is the one that counts, so be careful who you ask.

 

On the other hand, within the spirit of a game as opposed to written fiction, both game masters and players should avoid being heavy handed about this, and should leave some wiggle room.

 

Its mostly there for flavor and world-building, though it could be an awesome plot device.

[Dust Raven]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

The first interpretation is the one that counts, so be careful who you ask.

 

On the other hand, within the spirit of a game as opposed to written fiction, both game masters and players should avoid being heavy handed about this, and should leave some wiggle room.

 

Its mostly there for flavor and world-building, though it could be an awesome plot device.

Moderation would be a good idea. The last thing any campaign needs is for two PCs waking up in the morning and exchange the following dialog:

 

Bob: "Boy, Larry, I had the strangest dream last night."

Larry: "Tell me about it, Bob."

Bob: "Well, it involved me flying naked through the halls of my old high school."

Larry: "Ah, well that can only mean your arch-nemisis will die by his own hand this afternoon. Now you do me; my dream was about..."

[Lucius]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

I have some familiarity with what Von D-Man is talking about; but I left the clarifications up to him, as I won't presume to have HIS degree of familiarity.

 

But I can't help but mention something that's occurred to me, that I am not sure I ever thought of before.

 

And that is how very "Quantum" the whole thing sounds when it's laid out. As if interpreting a dream is "collapsing the wave form..."

 

Tell us, Von D-Man, HOW many centuries ago was this idea articulated?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests that the dreaming cat may well be Schrodinger's....

[zornwil]

Re: A Weird One: Dream Interpretation.

 

In Talmudic jargon - adaraba (exactly the opposite!). The dream follows the interpretation!

 

Some quick background notes on kinds of dreams:

 

1) Lucid dreaming, in which you can travel the dreamworld and interact with other dreamers and its denziens. This is, effectively, the spiritual table over which the corporeal table-cloth is draped. With the exception of other dreamers, what you see there is how your mind interperets that world - not necessarily what the world really is.

 

2) Normative dreams, which contain cultural or personal symbols, and may occassionally contain elements that come from a "collective consciousness" of dreamers, or from the spirits of the departed, or the denziens I mentioned above. These fall into two categories: dreams that reveal facts about the present or past, and dreams that potentially relate to the future.

Lucid Dreaming one is not in the scope of this post. Normative dreams are our focus. For this ability to work someone has to tell you their dream and then you interperet to get one of the following effects:

 

1) A deduction roll based on the narration of the dream to interperet the symbolism in the dream, either to reveal something about the dreamers physical or spritual being (uncanny!); or to reveal something that the dreamer could not possibly have known without external impetus (spooky!).

 

2) You fortell the future, but via not claristience/pregonition, which is reactive. Rather, what the dream means is undecided until you impose your interperetation on it. This is active. The fundamental principle is that your words

are

what the dream means

.

At the same time, your interpretation:

 

1) Reasonably fit the gist of the dream, world, etc.

2) Leave room for how these events occur (so not too specific).

3) Leave time for the events to occur in a natural timeframe.

4) Not contradict established fact (For instance, if we saw

ploni

beheaded fortelling his return is right out).

And sometimes (esp. for NPCs) it may be that the interpretation fits the "prophecy rule" - The prophets words are true, but don't be so certain you understand exactly what he means, or how it will come to pass.

 

At the same time, I see this as being more of a flaor ability - and one that has more impact in a story sense than a combat or mechanical sense. Its a culture with a powerful fascination and belief in dreams, and one that has had experience with people who have an uncanny ability to get tot he heart of those dreams.

 

Which is why I'm thinking it should be a skill rather than a power. I can lost out penalties for the kinds of things players are likely to do and leave it at that.

I think the skill idea is a good one. Just to clarify, I use the term "clairsentience" because in MECHANICAL effect one could argue that since the future hasn't happened yet, simply accurately predicting it forces it to happen (which of course could get into a rather esoteric quantum physics discussion about alternate timelines/dimensions and all that, but just keeping it simple, I was thinking that declaring the future forces the future). Yes, this is a troublesome mechanic in and of itself in that it is rife for abuse, but just an idea. But I don't mean that it's better/more appropriate, just throwing it out there. Thanks much for the background.

 

(PS - of course by clairsentience I mean the power (i.e., should say "Clairsentience") and naturally enough therefore the Precognition Adder, all speaking mechanically)