Fiefs as Bases

[AlHazred]

I've been working on some material for the next round of my Hârn Hero game. I'll be giving some free experience points in specific things to represent some of the personal development that occurs during the period between the end of the last cycle and the beginning of this one.

 

One thing I'd like to do is give the nobles Bases to represent their newly-acquired lands. I realize most people would hand-wave this (as would I, normally) but I'd like to see how it would turn out anyway.

 

So, anybody have any thoughts on how you would go about statting out a fief?

 

(And I'm not willing to wait until The Ultimate Base comes out...)

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

If you have to describe a feif as a base -- and why not, after all the 1000-point Landlord had the planet as a base, right?? -- buy the Castle/Manor as the main base, then the lands of the feif (county, barony, duchy, kingdom, whatever) as 'extra grounds'. If there is more than one castle, well, keep increasing that Base Size, and split the space between the two locations.

 

Other than that, well, not really certain. Personnel (men-at-arms, valets, cooks, bakers, etc. etc. yadda yadda) come to mind, as well as equipment, but other than that ... *shrugs*

 

Hand-waving the FEIF sounds much, much better to me.

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

Hand-waving the FEIF sounds much, much better to me.

 

I usually don't mind hand-waving, but with some of my campaigns I end up waving up a hurricane. I'd like to remain grounded in the mechanics for as long as possible.

 

The main thing about a castle is the defensive works. These are easily represented by tough exterior walls, DEF 6 BODY 12 at a minimum. A Bailey can be constructed by using the Partial Coverage rules.

 

The fief itself is definitely Grounds, and any serfs would be Followers. Were there any other people who would be considered part of the property?

 

Laboratories would be very appropriate for lords with wizard followers, and every fantasy castle needs an Interrogation Lab...

 

Equipment is a little more hazy. Obviously, most such Fief Bases will have no gun emplacements, but I wonder what else could be considered equipment that is bought with the base. Hoardings? Wells? Mills? Have to think about this...

[Ndreare]

One thing to consider is wether the followers belong to the fief or the characters. Many soldiers will follow the "True King" reguardless of his title while others will follow what ever ruler curently controls the land. (Iwould say most followers would cost the base points not the player.)

[Rene]

Hello,

 

I'm very interested in more "realistic" fantasy worlds, as opposed to typical D&D stuff. Very interesting post.

 

Now, while a castle would obviously be a Base, I'm not sure about the fief as "Grounds". Even though the noble would nominally own the land, is it so much under his control as a Base should be?

 

Same thing with the serfs. Followers are pretty loyal. Personally, I think only a noble's more personal retainers should be Followers. You know, his household and personal guard and things like that.

 

Would they follow him even if he lost his title? If the answer is yes, then they're Followers. Otherwise they're just an aspect of his Fringe Benefit Perk, IMHO.

[Nightshade]

I would consider the fief itself as grounds; the castle (or manor house) as a base; people devoted to the character as character followers; people devoted to the fief as base followers; mines, fields, whatever would be wealth with those as a special effect, including taxes; and then state that the other structures not purchased as part of the base are not under the control of the character(s) involved.

 

That was a very long sentence (thank god for semi-colons!).

 

Castles can have quite a lot of equipment. Canons, anti-seige equipment, and arms/armor all come to mind. And there are lots of "laboratory" type things needed for most equipped castles.

 

That seems reasonable to me.

 

Nightshade

[Vondy]

I would grant the fief in conjunction with titles.

 

In other words: anyone with a perk that indicates "landed gentry" has lands. A fief isn't properly a base, nor is a castle, unless you are are playing super-heroic style fantasy. I would give them modest lands and suggest that the revenue from those lands, if properly managed, gives them some level of the "money" perk. If you're worried about castles and manors there are ways to handle that:

 

1. Generally nobles needed a writ from the crown to crenelate (build or expand fortifications). Unless you were a royal or a duke the best you were going to do would be a keep.

 

2. Whatever fortifications they do end up with could be one step above a ruin (collapsed roofs, some walls leaning, rotten draw bridge), which would force them to acquire more money to fix them up. LOTS more money.

 

3. Their grants of land could be for frontier areas without fortifications - forcing them to construct them out of pocket - EXCEEDINGLY EXPENSIVE.

 

I wouldn't require points for bases, though. Not in a heroic game [unless they started with them]

[Nightshade]

Normally, I wouldn't require point expenditure, either, for something given in game. However, that is what the creator of the thread wanted to do...

 

We are only here to help.

 

Nightshade

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by Nightshade

We are only here to help.

 

Well, that's not the only reason you're here...

 

Originally, I did exactly this; a few PCs started with noble titles (a household knight, his squire, and a baron), and the baron had "lands" that were not paid for. Since the adventure took place far away from his manor, this was not an issue.

 

Now, however, it's been several years (out of game; in game, it's been about 1 year). When I announced that the next cycle of the campaign would start soon, I told the players it would be six months later; this way, they could train up, spend XP, and what not. Anyway, the PCs have gotten more powerful, both in rank and in skill. While several wanted to do other things with their time, at least one of the new Vassal Knights (i.e., "landed" gentry) stated he would spend the intervening time building up his property by hook or by crook. I'd like to have a way to reflect this. Plus, the next cycle will take place in the kingdom, with politics becoming more important and the PCs having a greater stake in the outcome.

 

Ergo, I've decided to see how many points a Fief would be as a Base. I'm not expecting hugely complicated, exhaustive Bob Greenwade-style write-ups a la The Ultimate Vehicle. But I'd like to get a handle on how that PC spent his XP.

[Alcamtar]

In my game, I required a noble character to take perks for both title and wealth; he had no followers as yet, or castle (which would have been a base).

 

I think I'd handwave the lands... he can claim any land he wants, but defending that claim and seeing revenue from it are another matter entirely, a great source of adventures, and a good reason to invest in castles and followers.

 

I'd be tempted in a heroic game to use money instead of points, except that castles are horrendously expensive; they could take 10 years to build and 50+ years to pay the debt off, during which time you need to manage your fief and keep the money rolling in. Castles were also developed over *generations*, each successive ruler adding on a tower or gatehouse and taking 10-30 years to pay it off.

 

Interesting but not very adventurous, and it adds a lot of business accounting to the game. If you want to play it out like that then use money instead of points, but if a character just inherits a castle or has a genie conjure him one, then paying points accomplishes the same thing much more quickly and easily.

 

Mike

[Nightshade]

OH!!!

 

Well, now that you put it that way...

 

I think that I would do the point expenditures as I described above. Actually, I think that it would be very interesting to roleplay the xp expenditure, as there are a lot of interesting plot hooks just in your post.

 

I think that the rules in the FREd for grounds and "base" followers ala TUV vehicle followers would work. Again, if the follower is serving the character, the character should buy it. However, if the follower is more attached to the land (and may betray the character if he thought that the fief were better off without him), then the base should buy the follower.

 

Nightshade

 

PS I am mostly here to help. I am never here to hinder. I am always here to learn, gain perspective, and have fun, not necessarily in that order.

[Eodin]

Quick and dirty example.

 

[color=blue]Sir Gilbreath's Castle & Lands
INT    10                        0
BODY 25                       23
DEF     7                       15
Size 500 Hexes of Buildings   18
    400 square miles Grounds 14
    128 employees, 100pts ea 55
    Cells, non-magical        0
    Trebuchets, 4            27
    Location: Distant        10
Total........................162.[/color]

 

Consider this the standard assigned lands and castle for the sake of an example. All buildings constructed of DEF 7 Granite.

 

Increasing size of castle or adding buildings would cost something like 10 gold per hex added and take 1 week per hex added (rough estimate). Additional labor could decrease the time at a corresponding increase in cost, e.g. x4 people = x4 gold, completed in 1/4 the time.

Improvements to the existing structure, like adding a scrying chamber, torture chamber, magical gate to the city of X, and so on, should cost roughly 10sp per Real Point, and again take 1 week per hex modified.

Hiring wizards will multiply the cost by 5-10 (based on your world) and take 1/2 or 1/4 the time, depending on the type of work.

Employees should cost per person rather than per point in term of gold/silver. You can't hire 4 programmers for twice the cost of 1, after all See the upcoming Fantasy Hero for prices.

 

So over a 3-month period, Sir Gilbreath could put his workers to the task of modifications, adding 12 hexes to the castle at a cost of 120 gold over their salaries. He could hire a group of wizards to modify a 4-hex room to be a scrying room, which might cost out to 20 real points, for a cost of 20 x 10 x5 = 2000sp.

 

Food for thought, anyway. You'll need to refine the gold costs and times to match the available of funds and resources in your campaign world.

[AlHazred]

Okay, let's try this out. Here's the writeup for the PC Baron's demesne. He's a wizard, as were his forebears. The once-extensive De Winters holdings have dwindled due to neglect and the sale of properties to finance arcane experimentation. This has left the Baron with a single manor and one loyal henchman who's tied to the property.I'm using Lord Albrecht's Manor from the Fantasy Hero Companion (4th Edition supplement), which has an area of somewhat less than 50 hexes. At x32 Grounds, that comes to about 1600 hexes, or 5,500 square meters, or about an acre. This only represents his Demesne, that is, that part of his fief that is primarily for his use.Baron De Winters' DemesnePlayer: DELETED

Val	Char	Cost
7	BODY	5
6	DEF	12
4	Size	20

Characteristics Cost: 25

Cost	Skill
9	Sanctum: Magic (INT-based) 12-
6	Extensive Library: KS: Arcane Lore 15-
1	Extensive Library: KS: Odivshe Lore 8-
2	Extensive Library: KS: Pvaric Philosophy 11-
2	Extensive Library: KS: Melderyni Shek-Pvar 11-

Skills Cost: 20

Cost	Perk
5	Demesne: Grounds (x32 Base Size)
5	Steward: Follower (25 Base, 25 Disad)
10	In A Far Province: Location: Distant

Perks Cost: 20

Val	Disadvantages
15	Social Limitation: Lordly Responsibilities (Maintaining roads, building fortifications, outfitting knights, etc.) (Frequently; Major)

Disadvantage Points: 15

Base Points: 65Experience Required: 0Total Experience Available: 0Experience Unspent: 0Total Character Cost: 50/5 = 10

[Markdoc]

Just the thought of getting players to buy their fief/kingdom/bakery with points in a heroic game is like fingernails on a blackboard to me.

 

First, I'd discuss with the player in question what he wanted to do, suggest some options on how the fief could be built up. Trade? Build a market? Bring in settlers to settle the high downs? Get a warrant to build a new town? War? Take back the rich grazing land along the river that was stolen by Sir Fewmet Fizzob? Build an (illegal) keep and start taxing merchant trains passing through his desmense? Root out that annoying Locksley and his gang of bandits that have been preying on trade? etc, etc.

 

Then I'd get your player spend his points on the things he would have needed to get his fief built up and running smoothly: a few trusty followers, some basic accounting and social interaction skills (heraldry, High society, etc), some AK: for his lands and the surrounding lands, some contacts and/or favours. If he used martial endevours instead of peaceful ones, perhaps Tactics, KS: mercenary captains, AK: Great Gloomy Forest, etc.

 

That will give the player more flavour, the points he spends on KS: Important burghers, and AK: Neighbouring Fiefs and so on will tie him to his fief as much as spending 10 points: Base (Fief of Gruntfuttock) - and also make logical sense: by spending his time in his fief, he will "get to know" the place.

 

As a bonus, how he choses to spend his points should generate plot hooks and also define how the player can deal with them...

 

As for handwaving, I'd certainly draw up a bunch of maps and 1-2 line descriptions of important people in the neighbourhood. I'd also generate his fortress and the local towns. But I'd do it generically ("Here's a map of the keep. The walls are made of dressed stone"). We KNOW how much DEF and BOD stone walls have: there's no need to stat it out in advance any more than there is a need to buy "life support, does not need to eat, 1 continuous charge lasting one month, usable by up to 128 other people (siege supplies)"

 

cheers, Mark

[AlHazred]

Most of that was already taken care of in-game. The players with new holdings have been granted them by the King, in recognition of service (and to tie the PCs more closely to the fortunes of the Kingdom). For the most part, the players are getting semi-ruined keeps with deserted lands; they will be receiving no income from them until the people resettle, and they get their keeps rebuilt and restocked with men-at-arms. (Note that these aren't really personal followers; they're needed to fulfill the requirements to keep these lands, and will be staying in the keep/out of the story.) The two exceptions are the Baron with the small manor (who isn't really trusted enough to be given more responsibility) and the knight (who is from a noble family and has been gifted lands by her family; this is slightly better land closer to the center of the Kingdom, with income associated with it).

 

The other factor is that this might come into play. The next phase of the campaign is Rebuilding after the players have staved off a major invasion. There will be set piece battles and skirmishes; I hope to use the Mass Combat rules to allow some player interaction in the Warfare that will surely erupt. I imagine that this warfare will take place on the frontier; some of the players' keeps will likely be besieged (hey, no one said it was easy!)

 

As I said, I could just handwave everything; I've run completely statless games where everyone had fun. However, the point of Hero is to accurately reflect the character being built; if he has lands, but they never come into play, then I have no problem with Money, Contacts, etc. However, if it comes into play, there should be points associated with it.

 

I wasn't really interested in debating the fine points of whether or not to spend points on it; the whole point of the thread is to posit examples of what can result if you do.

[AnotherSkip]

Hmm based upon what is happening in your campaign as well as what happened in a knight/dragon lordling/feif sort of book (a series by a guy I cannot remember....) I would do the following:

everyone with uninvested points gets some baseline: Manor, Grounds (defined as desmene) possibly some ineffective NPC's. Then people who have points to spend or wish to do so then get to spend the points on the base buying what they think they need. Followers, Seige Equipment, income, a good Seneschal, Laboratories, Allies, Contacts, Training grounds, Forges, Smithies!!!!!!!!

 

Now then I personally had an AD&D Dwarf who used the third wish from his ring of wishes to tell him "the best way to build and accquire...." his ultimate dream of a Dwarven fighting force. Note, the actual wish was written out and is two pages long. But the important parts were it only told him "the best way" and it more or less only governed the development of those forces.