CSLs overpriced?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

WHAT IF?

Naked Power Modifier

+1 DEX (DCV Use Only -1/2): 2 Points

+1 DEX (OCV Use Only -1/2): 2 Points

 

I'd rather buy +2 DEX with no figured for 4 points and get OCV and DCV use.

[Rapier]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

For me it's still very simple.

 

C A is rather clumsy. EXTREMELY clumsy; think Jerry Lewis after a bottle of GOOOOOD scotch. HOWEVER, he is very, very skilled with a Rifle.

 

How do you build that?

 

Is +10 DEX cheaper? Possibly, but the character is NOT dextruous. He's just really good with a rifle...that is what CSLs are for.

 

Plain, short and simple.

 

SFX (and design) are my gods!

[Markdoc]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Actually' date=' 8 pt CSL's are a bargain [b']IF[/b] a GM has a houserule that does not allow a character to sell back 'new' figured (but unused) SPD when spending XP on DEX. characters will usually have some cheaper CSL's and broadening them to apply to new attack types becomes cheaper than more DEX.

 

I don't think that's a house rule. I believe that normally you can only sell characteristics back at character creation or with GM's permission.

 

Certainly I don't allow it

 

But even so, as the next poster to you pointed out, 8 point levels are still kind of unattractive simply because the 10 point level is a whole 2 points more expensive, but is generally applicable in far more situations.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I don't think that's a house rule. I believe that normally you can only sell characteristics back at character creation or with GM's permission.

 

Certainly I don't allow it

 

What about "DEX - no figured Char"? The cost and result are identical.

[The Souljourner]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

For me it's still very simple.

 

C A is rather clumsy. EXTREMELY clumsy; think Jerry Lewis after a bottle of GOOOOOD scotch. HOWEVER, he is very, very skilled with a Rifle.

 

How do you build that?

 

Is +10 DEX cheaper? Possibly, but the character is NOT dextruous. He's just really good with a rifle...that is what CSLs are for.

 

Plain, short and simple.

 

SFX (and design) are my gods!

 

I wasn't saying that there's no place in Hero for combat skill levels. Rather the opposite... that I like them, but find them overpriced. Saying "it fits SFX better" doesn't mean anything when we're talking about cost. If CSLs were 100 points each, they'd still fit some SFX better, and still be overpriced.

 

Schr1964 - +1 dex does not equal +1 OCV/DCV. +3 dex does. Thus, you need 9 points. And I wouldn't put Only For OCV at -1/2.... you're reducing dex's effectiveness by half *at least*, so it should be -1.

 

Braincraft - this is something I was thinking about last night... CSLs need more usefulness. Right now, they're primarily only +1 CV, or two for +1 DC. If there were other cool things you could do with them, that would make their cost a little more palatable. Bouncing is one good example of a way to make CSLs more useful... are there others I've missed? I'd love to see more things like that, things that make a character with CSLs actually different and more interesting than a character who just has higher Dex.

 

-Nate

[Manic Typist]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I wasn't saying that there's no place in Hero for combat skill levels. Rather the opposite... that I like them, but find them overpriced. Saying "it fits SFX better" doesn't mean anything when we're talking about cost. If CSLs were 100 points each, they'd still fit some SFX better, and still be overpriced.

 

 

 

They might not be overpriced if you consider the fact that they match SFX better. That's what the additional points are purchasing: not what will just do the job, but do the job in the most appropriate way.

[Markdoc]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

What about "DEX - no figured Char"? The cost and result are identical.

 

That's allowable - but of course it gives you no fractional SPD if you ever want to buy it up

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

You can't drain skill levels, but other than that I'd say buy DEX every time in a superhero game if utility is what you want, certainly over 8 point CSLs. We could tinker with the cost and make 8 point CSLs cost 7 points, or 6 (but then you'd probably have to drop the 5 pointers to 4), and that way lies only madness.

 

Now I have a soft spot for 8 point CSLs because the original Ogre had 3 of them and they always seemed mighty effective in that particukar build. Mind you they never were: he only ever really used them for OCV, not being the sort to get out of the way much, unless he was simply closing the distance to a blaster, and so 3 point levels or bumping his 18 DEX up to 30 (and taking a point saving on the 12 cps used to increase his SPD to 4) would have been far nastier.

 

Mind you, noone ever really said 'Ogre: what an inefficient push over' in our games.

 

We (and I very much include myself in that) get a bit obsessed about point utility. There is a reason though: the whole ethos of Hero is based around the concept that you have a certain number of points, and that you can get roughly equivalent characters out of them. If concept was all that mattered, let us be honest, points would not matter at all, we would use some other balancing mechanism.

 

So, we are not really trying to balance points and we are not, over our own protestations, just building to concept.

 

So if I was building Ogre now I'd probably give him 3x3 point levels with punch, haymaker and grab, and spend the extra 15 points on something cool like a heavily lmited naked advantage for strength: double KB 0 range explosion so he could hit the ground and knock everyone over.

 

But then, I've lost the plot, haven't I? There was nothing wrong with Ogre as was.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

That's allowable - but of course it gives you no fractional SPD if you ever want to buy it up

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

+10 DEX, No Figured = 20 points

+1 SPD = 10 points

 

+10 DEX w/ Figured raising SPD = 30 points

 

The costs are the same, but I can buy the first 9 DEX for only 18 XP, rather than 27, and get those benefits much faster taking the former approach. I don't see any reason there should be such a difference and, as such, I don't see any reason to prohibit adjusting the cost of figured characteristics when the related primary stat is increased.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

They might not be overpriced if you consider the fact that they match SFX better. That's what the additional points are purchasing: not what will just do the job' date=' but do the job in the most appropriate way.[/quote']

 

So what's a fair percentage increase in point cost solely to match your SFX? Is there a compelling reason that the character whose SFX are "Superhuman Agility" should be able to save significant points compared to the character whose SFX are "Highly skilled and trained normal"? To me, the cost of a given mechanical result should be the same regardless of the special effect. Isn't that the whole point of divorcing SFX from mechanics?

[Manic Typist]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I don't think there needs to be a compelling reason if both players are aware of the situation. Granted, I am speaking in a very hypothetical sense here, but maybe one player simply prefers "a highly skilled and trained normal," while the other prefers "Superhuman Agility."

 

Really, a good GM could make that difference come out in play through plot twists, etc.

[The Souljourner]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I don't think you should ever have to pay extra to fit special effects more accurately, if there is no mechanical advantage. You're paying for the mechanical advantage and making up the special effects.

 

I do think there needs to be a mechanical reason why two very similar rules effects have significantly different costs, and special effects are not the answer. And saying "as long as people are aware, it's ok" is not ok, in my mind. You could price killing attacks at 100 points per DC and say "Well, as long as people are aware, that's ok". It's not ok. The prices don't represent the mechanics. Now maybe the prices are only slightly off and wouldn't work if you changed them, that's possible, in which case we'd have to accept that some of them are really only viable in NCM games... and that wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

-Nate

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

So what's a fair percentage increase in point cost solely to match your SFX? Is there a compelling reason that the character whose SFX are "Superhuman Agility" should be able to save significant points compared to the character whose SFX are "Highly skilled and trained normal"? To me' date=' the cost of a given mechanical result should be the same regardless of the special effect. Isn't that the whole point of divorcing SFX from mechanics?[/quote']

 

Everyone seems to be forgeting that any increases to DEX are going to be subject to Adjustment powers but CSL's would be unaffected.

 

Example:

Say you have an Olympic level sharpshooter with a 10 DEX with several CSL's with rifles.

 

What happens if his DEX is drained into negative value?

 

He will have to make a DEX roll based on this current value to aim and shoot a rifle but his OCV will be figured from a DEX value of 0 for a net -3 OCV.

 

A character whose CV was based soley on DEX would be affected far more drasticly by the same drain(s).

 

This is not just SFX difference, it is a fundamental mechanical difference.

[Manic Typist]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

I don't think you should ever have to pay extra to fit special effects more accurately, if there is no mechanical advantage. You're paying for the mechanical advantage and making up the special effects.

 

I do think there needs to be a mechanical reason why two very similar rules effects have significantly different costs, and special effects are not the answer. And saying "as long as people are aware, it's ok" is not ok, in my mind. You could price killing attacks at 100 points per DC and say "Well, as long as people are aware, that's ok". It's not ok. The prices don't represent the mechanics. Now maybe the prices are only slightly off and wouldn't work if you changed them, that's possible, in which case we'd have to accept that some of them are really only viable in NCM games... and that wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

 

In principle, I agree with you. Yet to me, this contradicts a common theme that I've found that HERO in general espouses, which (for now) I tend to reject: If two builds are equally valid, the more expensive one is the one you should choose. They have very similar effects, yet you are forced to chose the one that costs more? Can you reconcile these two seemingly contradictory notions?

 

Your strawman argument doesn't address what I was hypothesizing. I was talking about when the issues concerns choices between various options and whether or not one player will be unduly "advantaged." I stated that as long as both players were aware of both options and their rammifications, it was ok. So, to adapt your statement to more accurately apply to what I was saying: If 1 DC cost 10 points for X reason, and 1 DC costs 100 points for Y reason, and both players A and B knew this and player B chose to pay 100 points for 1 DC.... then yes, yes it is ok.

 

Because, the player said "That's ok. I'll pay 100 points."

 

Of course, they should probably have their head examined. But that's ok too.

[BNakagawa]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

In a heroic level game, CSLs can be used to increase damage and raw dexterity can't.

[Markdoc]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

+10 DEX, No Figured = 20 points

+1 SPD = 10 points

 

+10 DEX w/ Figured raising SPD = 30 points

 

The costs are the same, but I can buy the first 9 DEX for only 18 XP, rather than 27, and get those benefits much faster taking the former approach. I don't see any reason there should be such a difference and, as such, I don't see any reason to prohibit adjusting the cost of figured characteristics when the related primary stat is increased.

 

Fair enough - I did the math already and I agree all it does is alter the tming, not way the points are spent. However, since as you note, if the player chooses to get both DEX and SPD, it works out the same, where you see no reason to *forbid* a post-creation sell-back, I see no reason to *allow* it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

In a heroic level game' date=' CSLs can be used to increase damage and raw dexterity can't.[/quote']

 

Hit locations?

[Vondy]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Hit locations?

 

Damage Classes.

 

In the CSL section of the rules it says you are allowed to convert skill levels into damage classes at a 2:1 ratio (for 2 pointers - it doesn't address the fact that its not worth it with more expensive skill levels and proposes no adjustment for that). It gives a slightly different mechanic for superheroic games. It may be listed as GM Discrection (I don't remember), but its definately there. Basically, two 2 point skill levels cost the same as a martial damage class. It works really well for grittier heroic level games where characters have (on average) lower stats - "I am skilled therefore I kill."

 

This next part is NOT in the rules: for SOME genres I would allow characters to convert 5 point skill levels to damage classes at 1:1 and 8 point skill levels at 1:2.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Everyone seems to be forgeting that any increases to DEX are going to be subject to Adjustment powers but CSL's would be unaffected.

 

Example:

Say you have an Olympic level sharpshooter with a 10 DEX with several CSL's with rifles.

 

What happens if his DEX is drained into negative value?

 

He will have to make a DEX roll based on this current value to aim and shoot a rifle but his OCV will be figured from a DEX value of 0 for a net -3 OCV.

 

A character whose CV was based soley on DEX would be affected far more drasticly by the same drain(s).

 

First off, where does it say base OCV or DCV cannot be negative if DEX is negative? A character with a 0 DEX is already easier to hit than a 2 meter wide hex.

 

Even assuming this is the case, however, let's compare your 10 DEX sharpshooter with +7 levels against a 30 DEX character. Both start with OCV 10. Both get drained for 20 DEX.

 

AgileMan now has a 3 OCV. He can act at will.

 

SkillMan has, if OCV can't base at negative, a 7 OCV, but he only gets to act on 9.26% of his phases (needs to roll 7-). I think AgileMan has the advantage - at least he can run away and wait for his DEX to recover. SkillMan will almost certainly be -30 DEX before he gets to act again.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

One thing you aren't taking into consideration:

 

All Combat CSL's also add to ECV in Mental Combat as well!

 

Even a character who isn't a Mentalist can use them to augment is DECV against a mental assault. Thus you have to recalculate the usefullness of 8pt CSL's to include Ego as well as Dex.

 

And don't forget to calculate in STR as well, considering they can be used to augment damage at a rate of 2/+1DC.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

First off' date=' where does it say base OCV or DCV cannot be negative if DEX is negative? [/quote']

 

5er page 36

Negative Dexterity

At DEX 1 or less a character is CV 0.

 

Your example is very situational.

 

Counter example.

Let's say the drain is from a toxin like a snake bite.

A CSL based sniper can usually take his time to make his shot (multiple DEX rolls) and still complete his mission. A high DEX based sniper could do normal tasks with no DEX roll but would otherwise be a crappy shot.

 

As I said before, its a mechanical difference.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSLs overpriced?

 

Counter example.

Let's say the drain is from a toxin like a snake bite.

A CSL based sniper can usually take his time to make his shot (multiple DEX rolls) and still complete his mission. A high DEX based sniper could do normal tasks with no DEX roll but would otherwise be a crappy shot.

 

Given he's firing from surprise at DCV 0, I think I'd take the shot anyway. Noting that he at least gets to fire the shot before the target walks away!

 

As I said before' date=' its a mechanical difference.[/quote']

 

I will agree this creates a mechanical difference, although I don't see it justifying the price difference. There is also the mechanical "2 levels to add to damage" difference to consider, though.

 

Now, let's consider that SuperSkilled vs SuperAgile character dilemma. When I think of a SuperSkilled characger, I generally believe he has a great OCV/DCV. I don'tr think about him being able to trade off CV for damage (other than a called shot to the head, say). DEX actually simulates this better than combat levels.