New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

[schir1964]

Charges On Multipower (Idea Expressed By Lord Liaden)

...In my case I move the number of Charges one step down the Limitations value chart when applied to a slot, e.g. 12 Charges is -0, 8 Charges is -1/4, etc. I've seen several other posters here remark that they do the same...

 

I felt this idea worthy to be put in its own thread for reference in the Thread Linkage thread. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Robyn]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

I felt this idea worthy to be put in its own thread for reference in the Thread Linkage thread. (8^D)

 

Should we discuss it here, then?

 

This is a thread to keep track of New Ideas people have discussed.

[gojira]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Why would this be needed or desirable? What's wrong with a multipower slot with 8 charges that gets no adjustment?

[Fedifensor]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Why would this be needed or desirable? What's wrong with a multipower slot with 8 charges that gets no adjustment?

 

60 Multipower #1 - 60 point reserve, 16 charges

6u 12d6 EB

6u 8d6 AP EB

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF

6u 4d6 RKA

 

60 Multipower #2 - 60 point reserve

6u 12d6 EB, 16 charges

6u 8d6 AP EB, 16 charges

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 16 charges

6u 4d6 RKA, 16 charges

 

Multipower #2 is MUCH more desirable than Multipower #1, and both have the same point cost. That's why the change has been proposed...

[Robyn]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Why would this be needed or desirable? What's wrong with a multipower slot with 8 charges that gets no adjustment?

 

I guess we would have to look here for the answer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

The issue is not quite so desperate with larger numbers of charges i.e. where charges is an advantage but I like the idea as it gives a point differentiation between the two builds - chages ont he reserve and charges on the slots.

 

Mind you technically I would say this was a new rule for the implementation of charges in multipowers rather than a new limtiation per se

[gojira]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Multipower #2 is MUCH more desirable than Multipower #1' date=' and both have the same point cost. That's why the change has been proposed...[/quote']

 

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

 

I think maybe one step down the Charges table might not be enough. I could see two: steps 8 charges as a -0 lim for a Multipower slot, and that would make 1 Charge a -1-1/4 lim, the most you can get.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

 

I think maybe one step down the Charges table might not be enough. I could see two: steps 8 charges as a -0 lim for a Multipower slot, and that would make 1 Charge a -1-1/4 lim, the most you can get.

 

I disagree. IME going down two steps down on the Charges Limitation Table is too dramatic a reduction to the value of Charges on individual slots.

[radioKAOS]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Should the number of slots be an issue in factoring the disad? 16 charges for 4 slots is a lot different than 16 charges for 16 slots.

 

Alternatively, 8 slots with 8 charges each nets you a cost break on the slots and 64 charges total to use. While 64 charges on the Pool cost [and therefore for all slots ot use] is an advantage???

 

Clearly it has to be built to the player's advantage.

[gojira]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

I disagree. IME going down two steps down on the Charges Limitation Table is too dramatic a reduction to the value of Charges on individual slots.

 

I may have to bow to your experience, because I was just eye-balling it. It seems like an archer-type character who has many, many slots in a "trick arrow" Multipower would still do ok even if charges were moved down the table two rows.

 

One slot of, say, 2d6 RKA, 16 recoverable charges (+1) is two steps down the table, and works for one fight. That's a decent amount of decent attacks, pretty much anti-mook fair. It's 30 AP and 60 real points, and fits in a 6u slot. Add in all the other attacks the archer should have (esp. entangles) and he'd do fine.

 

Then a slot with, say, Super Arrow, 12d6 EB, 8 charges (+0), fills in for those times when you need to hurt a big bad guy, fits in the same 6u slot, and yet still feels constraining in a big fight, and will make the archer choose his shots well. (Probably needs some Find Weakness as well as Set and Brace and all the skill levels said archer has got to make sure it goes off well.)

 

Sixteen charges of the same attack would not really feel constraining to me, but I haven't actually tried it either.

[gojira]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Should the number of slots be an issue in factoring the disad? 16 charges for 4 slots is a lot different than 16 charges for 16 slots.

 

Yes and no. Yes because it is a real issue, as you point out. No because it's too complicated and arbitrary. Each additional slot costs more points that you can't spend somewhere else; I think that's enough.

 

This idea was, btw, one of my thoughts behind going two steps down the charges table instead of one. The extreme utility of lots of slots kinda of suggests it.

 

 

Hmm, is it legal to buy Costs Endurance with Charges? To simulate something you have limited amounts of but requires effort to use (like, shooting a bow)?

[radioKAOS]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Hmm, is it legal to buy Costs Endurance with Charges? To simulate something you have limited amounts of but requires effort to use (like, shooting a bow)?

 

Yes of course it is.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

It's an interesting idea, but it does get uness. complicated when you go into number of charges vs total charges and number of slots and all that jazz.

 

The overcomplication to try and balance it sort of kills the idea for me.

[Fedifensor]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

I haven't tested this out in any detail, but I like the idea of simply halving the number of charges when placed into a slot, because the multipower will have at least two slots (usually more) and the cost of a single slot is pretty cheap (especially with limitations or when using an ultra slot).

 

So, for no advantage or limitation, a single slot could take 16 charges (+0), halved to 8 because it's in a slot. If the character takes 8 charges (-1/2), they get a cost break but the number of charges is halved to 4 (again, because it is in a slot). You can go as low as 2 charges (-1 1/2), halved to 1 charge. It seems to work rather well, but it may not be for everyone.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

I haven't tested this out in any detail, but I like the idea of simply halving the number of charges when placed into a slot, because the multipower will have at least two slots (usually more) and the cost of a single slot is pretty cheap (especially with limitations or when using an ultra slot).

 

So, for no advantage or limitation, a single slot could take 16 charges (+0), halved to 8 because it's in a slot. If the character takes 8 charges (-1/2), they get a cost break but the number of charges is halved to 4 (again, because it is in a slot). You can go as low as 2 charges (-1 1/2), halved to 1 charge. It seems to work rather well, but it may not be for everyone.

 

Why when placed into a Slot? You won't see too much of a cost savings, and it's not like you can use those Charges with anything but that slot.

 

Maybe when the Charges are placed on the Multipower itself, but on the slot this seems to be overly restrictive.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Well, the thing about reducing the Charges in a Limited slot is that, while you're getting many more total Charges of Powers when you have many slots in the Multipower, the usefulness of each of the individual Powers is being curtailed. In a Multipower each Power slot is supposed to be different, so each Power will have a different use, or be more or less useful in a given situation. It's not like more slots with fewer Charges is going to be unequivocally better than fewer slots with more Charges; in the former case you'll more quickly run out of each of your options.

 

The adjustment I suggested balances one particular circumstance (16 Charges) without severely unbalancing the rest of the cost structure IMO. However, you should note that for Charges as an Advantage, each +1/4 level of Advantage doubles the number of Charges, so moving the number one step down the Charges chart for a MP slot would indeed reduce that number of Charges by half. I'm just suggesting continuing that precedent by following the standard progression for Charge reduction as a Limitation, rather than simply cutting the number of Charges in half.

[Fedifensor]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Why when placed into a Slot? You won't see too much of a cost savings, and it's not like you can use those Charges with anything but that slot.

 

Maybe when the Charges are placed on the Multipower itself, but on the slot this seems to be overly restrictive.

At 16 charges, which is a -0 Limitation under the current rules, I feel that Charges are actually giving the benefit of an advantage when placed on a Multipower slot. Refering back to the example I gave earlier in the thread, if a 4 slot multipower has 16 charges per slot, it's MUCH more efficient than putting 16 charges on the entire multipower. But if you used Lord Liaden's method or my method, then there's a mechanical reason why a player wouldn't just put charges on the slot.

 

So, to illustrate:

60 Multipower #1 - 60 point reserve, 16 charges

6u 12d6 EB

6u 8d6 AP EB

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF

6u 4d6 RKA

 

60 Multipower #2 - 60 point reserve

6u 12d6 EB, 8 charges

6u 8d6 AP EB, 8 charges

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 8 charges

6u 4d6 RKA, 8 charges

 

Multipower #2 is still quite effective, but the fact that no single power can be used more than 8 times means that the player is about as restricted as #1. Multipower #2 still has a total number of uses twice that of #1, but if you're in dire need of an AP EB, #1 has the edge. In general, though, most combat situations will be such where you'll want to switch between a variety of powers (part of the motivation to buy a multipower in the first place), so #2 is unlikely to be disadvantaged versus #1.

[Fedifensor]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

The adjustment I suggested balances one particular circumstance (16 Charges) without severely unbalancing the rest of the cost structure IMO. However' date=' you should note that for Charges as an Advantage, each +1/4 level of Advantage doubles the number of Charges, so moving the number one step down the Charges chart for a MP slot would indeed reduce that number of Charges by half. I'm just suggesting continuing that precedent by following the standard progression for Charge reduction as a Limitation, rather than simply cutting the number of Charges in half.[/quote']

My main problem with the one level adjustment occurs in the -0 to -1/2 range. I think that the progression breaks down with a flat one level adjustment, and a two level adjustment on the chart is too severe. Reducing charges from 16 to 12 simply isn't enough of an adjustment to make it a significant limitation, as 12 charges is still plenty for the standard superhero day when you can choose between several multipower slots. Keep in mind that not all the slots need to have charges, as you could always make one power cost END (such as the default EB in my example above). That means the character can always use a power if they're willing to pay Endurance, while still having plenty of charged powers if Endurance is running low.

 

Here's a breakdown of the progression using the standard method, Lord Liaden's method, and my method:

(+1)     256 128 128
(+3/4)   128  64  64
(+1/2)    64  32  32
(+1/4)    32  16  16
(+0)      16  12   8
(-1/4)    12   8   6
(-1/2)     8   6   4
(-3/4)     6   4   3
(-1)       4   3   2
(-1 1/2)   2   1   1

While I prefer my method, I admit that Lord Liaden's is a bit more consistant with the current rules, while mine has the advantage of simplicity. Either of our methods is better than the current system.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

While I prefer my method' date=' I admit that Lord Liaden's is a bit more consistant with the current rules, while mine has the advantage of simplicity. Either of our methods is better than the current system.[/quote']

 

That's completely debatable. And, IMO at least, entirely false. I've never run into a situation where Charges and Multipowers have been abusive in game. Therefore the current system seems just fine to me.

 

And as LL pointed out, the issue only really occurs at 16 Charges.

[Fedifensor]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

That's completely debatable. And, IMO at least, entirely false. I've never run into a situation where Charges and Multipowers have been abusive in game. Therefore the current system seems just fine to me.

 

And as LL pointed out, the issue only really occurs at 16 Charges.

I believe the issues occurs primarily from 8 to 16 charges. Really, though, anything 16 charges or less can be milked in the right circumstances. It's a really sweet deal to get a few uses of a no Endurance power for 2 or 3 character points. For example, 6 uses of a 60 active point power is only 3 points in an ultra slot. I have seen this exploited in games before. I call it Swiss Army knife syndrome, as the character can pay a few extra points to have a tool for every situation.

 

But, hey, if you don't see a problem, then this thread isn't for you. It's not like Steve is going to see this thread and suddenly change the rules for charges in Multipowers...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

60 Multipower #1 - 60 point reserve, 16 charges

6u 12d6 EB

6u 8d6 AP EB

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF

6u 4d6 RKA

 

60 Multipower #2 - 60 point reserve

6u 12d6 EB, 16 charges

6u 8d6 AP EB, 16 charges

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 16 charges

6u 4d6 RKA, 16 charges

NOT IN MY GAMES! Maybe I've been doing this "wrong" all these years, but the way I understood it, and the way I'll continue to do it is as follows.

 

First, acknowledge that Multipower #2 costs 0 END and can be used a total of 64 times. What does that suggest to you? To me it's quite obvious that it needs a +1/2 Advantage (either 0 END or 64 Charges) on the *Reserve* cost. It should cost a total of 90+6+6+6+6 = 114 points, not 84!

 

And the same thing works when you've got a Limitation level of charges:

 

? Multipower #3 - 60 point reserve

3u 12d6 EB, 4 charges

3u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 4 charges

3u 4d6 RKA, 4 charges

 

The whole MP #3 can only be used 12 times, so it gets a -1/4 (12 Charges) Limitation. It costs 60/1.25 + (6/2)x3 = 57 Points.

 

When different slots have different numbers of charges, simply add up the total charges and apply the appropriate modifier to the reserve:

 

72 Multipower #4 - 60 point reserve, 32 Charges (+1/4)

6u 12d6 EB, 16 charges

5u 8d6 AP EB, 8 charges

3u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 4 charges

3u 4d6 RKA, 4 charges

Total cost: 89

 

When some of the slots have Charges and some don't, that's a little trickier. I haven't quite got that pinned down yet. But I think I've gotten you most of the way there. That will be your homework assignment.

[Robyn]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

First' date=' acknowledge that Multipower #2 costs 0 END and can be used a total of 64 times. What does that suggest to you? To me it's quite obvious that it needs a +1/2 Advantage (either 0 END or 64 Charges) on the *Reserve* cost.[/quote']

 

This gives the advantage of allowing any slot in the Multipower to be used 64 times. Do you give an additional Limitation (value) if, for example, the Multipower is a quiver of arrows? Can't fire all 16 flame arrows and then simply call some of your 16 ice arrows "flame" instead.

 

If each of the slots had a different recovery method (for their charges), would you handwave this or use another Limitation for it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

NOT IN MY GAMES! Maybe I've been doing this "wrong" all these years, but the way I understood it, and the way I'll continue to do it is as follows.

 

First, acknowledge that Multipower #2 costs 0 END and can be used a total of 64 times. What does that suggest to you? To me it's quite obvious that it needs a +1/2 Advantage (either 0 END or 64 Charges) on the *Reserve* cost. It should cost a total of 90+6+6+6+6 = 114 points, not 84!

 

Wrong. It has 4 Slots that can be used 16 Times each.

 

That's NOT the same thing. Sure - you have 64 overall actions you can make with the Multipower, but an Entangle Slot is not the same as an Energy Blast Slot.

 

You put that Advantage on the Multipower Reserve and I, as a player, will DEMAND I get it as spelled out in the book: Applies to all slots, without increasing their active point cost.

 

And - if the Reserve has 64 Charges I can, and will, use any one slot up to 64 Times. If I won't need my Entangle this battle I won't ration my Energy Blast, I'll use it like it's got 64 Charges, not 16.

 

They aren't the same thing. At all. In any way.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

This gives the advantage of allowing any slot in the Multipower to be used 64 times. Do you give an additional Limitation (value) if' date=' for example, the Multipower is a quiver of arrows? Can't fire all 16 flame arrows and then simply call some of your 16 ice arrows "flame" instead.[/quote']

No it doesn't. Read carefully:

 

90 Multipower #2 - 60 point reserve, 64 Charges

6u 12d6 EB, 16 charges

6u 8d6 AP EB, 16 charges

6u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 16 charges

6u 4d6 RKA, 16 charges

Total cost: 114

 

Just because the reserve has 64 charges doesn't mean you can ignore the limitation of 16 charges on each of the slots. If you wanted to be able to use any slot 64 times, the multipower would look like this:

 

90 Multipower #2a - 60 point reserve, 64 Charges

9u 12d6 EB

9u 8d6 AP EB

9u 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF

9u 4d6 RKA

Total cost: 126

 

If each of the slots had a different recovery method (for their charges), would you handwave this or use another Limitation for it?

I'm not sure what you mean by "different recovery method." Off hand (assuming I'm interpreting your question correctly), I'd say that it wouldn't make any difference, as long as the rules mechanics are the same for each slot. If some slots had regular Charges and some had Recoverable Charges and some had Continuing Charges, that would be a different matter. The method I described is for the simplest case: when all slots have the same kind of charges. More complicated cases will naturally require more complicated methods (which I haven't fully worked out yet).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Limitation: Charges On Multipowers

 

Wrong. It has 4 Slots that can be used 16 Times each.

4 x 16 = 64

 

That's NOT the same thing. Sure - you have 64 overall actions you can make with the Multipower, but an Entangle Slot is not the same as an Energy Blast Slot.

I don't know what the point of that last sentence is. Sure, you can fire 16 regular EBs, 16 Entangles, 16 RKAs, and 16 Armor Piercing EBs, total. That's 64 actions, all right. So what happens after you've done all that? What else can you use the reserve for? Answer: Nothing. 16+16+16+16=64. In my games, if you want to use a power 64 times a day without paying END, you need an Advantage.

 

You put that Advantage on the Multipower Reserve and I, as a player, will DEMAND I get it as spelled out in the book: Applies to all slots, without increasing their active point cost.

You can demand all you like, but if I'm the GM, I can just call you a munchkin who's trying to get something for nothing and kick you out of my game. See my previous post for what I claim is the fair ways to purchase this multipower. This first is for 16 each, the second is for 64 total.

 

And - if the Reserve has 64 Charges I can, and will, use any one slot up to 64 Times. If I won't need my Entangle this battle I won't ration my Energy Blast, I'll use it like it's got 64 Charges, not 16.

Not if the 16 Charges limitation is applied to each slot, you can't!

 

They aren't the same thing. At all. In any way.

And therefore, they shouldn't cost the same. Right?