Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

[schir1964]

Self-Inflicted Damage: This rule is from the original (pre-4th Ed.) Golden Age of Champions, with one modification from advice on the discussion boards (Thanks Alistair).

 

Whenever you strike an object with Resistant Defenses (including characters), you roll your damage normally; if the Body damage you roll is higher than the Resistant Defense of the object, you take no damage. However, if you don't roll more Body than the Resistant Defense, you take the full damage yourself, modified by the multipliers for the Hit Location (if used) of the body part you used to strike with (your normal Defenses apply). If you're not using Hit Locations in your game, just apply the original form of the rule, in which the hitter takes full damage as if he had performed a Move Through.

 

So, when a character strikes a "soft" target, like normal human flesh, he never takes damage. When striking a hard object like a door, if the character does enough damage to break it (do BODY to it) he takes no damage, but if he can't do BODY, pain and injury may ensue.

 

This is a good rule to explain how trained martial artists can break boards, concrete blocks etc. without breaking their hands. It's also appropriate for that classic "normal human punches supertough hero and draws hand back in pain" scenario. Another nice thing is that it works for any object or being with Resistant Defenses, without the need to stat out a Damage Shield for every wall.

 

For perusal and reference.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

Fits into my personal range of 'more bookkeeping and trouble than it's worth'.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

I would overall prefer not to see that as an actual rule in-game, at least in that form. It effectively makes rDef a significant damage shield.

 

Some example situations:

 

Fantasy - fighter in 6rdef metal armor walks into a bar fight. Everyone attacks him with their 2-4d6 normal attacks and quickly knock themselves out (though probably him too in the process).

 

Supers - 350pt game, 25rPD brick. How often will another brick or martial artist do more than 25 BODY? Every time they hit him with their 10-12die attacks, they take the damage too.

 

Supers - No way am I trying to bust down that bank vault if I'm not confident of doing BODY on every hit. Even one less than average BODY roll if DC is around the rDef could mean some serious damage. (example - 18d6 punch vs 16rDef vault - rolls 3 1's and 15 4's....no damage to vault, brick takes 63 stun vs his PD....)

 

 

I think it works well for some things (normal person punching a brick wall) but as a general rule...not so much.

 

Maybe with the addition "If the attacker's PD is higher than the BODY of the attack, he takes no damage". So 10 Str 2PD man punching the rDef 8 wall takes no damage if he rolls 1 or 2 BODY, but takes damage if he rolls 3 or 4.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

Fits into my personal range of 'more bookkeeping and trouble than it's worth'.

 

That too. I imagine it wouldn't come up often enough to need to do more than handwave some damage in occaisionally.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

I've always liked the idea (There were a lot of good ideas in the original GAC) but think it could use some tweaking.

Right off the top of my head, I'd probably shift the comparison from BODY vs DEF to DC (possibly with a multiplier) vs DEF, and I'd keep the Movethrough element of Half damage if the target takes KB or Knockdown.

 

A rule like this is a nice option for a "realistic" game. The default of cinematic reality found in this system does lead to the occasional Murphys rules moment... Such as a base 10 stat "barely competent normal" being able to rip a medium sized car apart with his bare hands in under 3 minutes. Having "impaired" my right arm for the better part of 3 months with one impulsive punch to a wall, there seems to be a suspension of disbelief moment occuring.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

I should clarify that I generally use this rule in heroic-level campaigns, or occasionally in supers campaigns where I impose qualitative differences between normal people and supers, so that it happens to normal people but not to supers.

 

CrosshairCollie, in practice I've found that there's little bookkeeping involved. The rule is fast and easy to use; you just need to note whether or not Body damage has gotten through - you don't even roll again for self-inflicted damage. I've found that it doesn't come up that often, unless a character wants to do something that in the real world logically should hurt him, like punching a wall to borrow Amadan's example.

 

Supreme Serpent, I would suggest that fantasy characters who attack someone in full metal armor barehanded (I'm assuming the armor has no limited coverage so that some of their blows would hit unprotected areas) deserve to knock themselves out, or at least feel some pain. More likely, though, they would just stop doing it when they started hurting themselves. Note that if you're using Hit Locations, assuming the attackers are striking with their hands the damage they take would be halved for that Hit Location. And as I mentioned, I don't recommend this rule for use with supers.

 

As you point out, Resistant Defense functions like a Damage Shield under these circumstances, and IMO it should. Hitting something that's really hard is going to hurt in the real world, and you shouldn't have to build a Damage Shield into every wall, car and cast-iron pot in order to stat out that effect. It helps to simulate a realistic effect, and some folks want to have the option to put that into their games.

 

I know some gamers are perfectly happy with hand-waving these situations, and if that works for them I have no problem with it. However, other GMs and/or players prefer to have details like this follow known and predictable mechanics. Self-Inflicted Damage really doesn't factor into situations often - in settings where people wear armor they usually attack each other with weapons, and otherwise hitting nonresistant flesh doesn't hurt - but on those occasions when it does come up it adds flavor. IME, IMHO, YMMV etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

It seems to me that, in the source material, this issue arises when the target of the attack shrugs the attack off with a yawn. That's not a 24d6 Punch to a guy with 25 rDEF, which inflicts 84 Stun (59 after those 25 defenses), but no BOD. Perhaps the rule should apply only where all of the following criteria are met:

 

- the rDEF in question are rigid (punching a wall or a rockman, but not punching a tough, but flexible airbag, the Blob, or SpongeMan)

 

- No Stun or BOD gets past the rDEF

 

- A perfect (max damage) hit would still not do BOD to the target

 

- The target is not knocked back.

 

Probably, the damage should automatically be to the hand location (ie the body part used to attack don't head butt an iron golem!), or to the weapon used to make the attack. Where hit locations are not used, the location modifiers should still apply in this limited case.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

This is something I've thought about, and have never found a satisfactory rule for. I tend to play I by ear a bit and simply warn players 'that hurt a lot, you are lucky you didn't break your hand' rather than apply damage. If they don't take the hint they are fair game, of course: 'OK - that time you did'

 

I know this is a rule for heroic games mainly, but in the superheroic arena I have considered allowing an advantage on resistant defences for it to act as a 'hard defence damage shield': something like attacker takes stun damage equal to the resistant defence or the BODY done in the attack, whichever is lower, and only their own resistant defence reduces the damage.(+1/4? Maybe even +0, balanced by damage being applied to anyone you want to catch, like a teammate who is falling or whatnot) Always seems there are too many possible exceptions to make it work though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

I know this is a rule for heroic games mainly' date=' but in the superheroic arena I have considered allowing an advantage on resistant defences for it to act as a 'hard defence damage shield': something like attacker takes stun damage equal to the resistant defence or the BODY done in the attack, whichever is lower, and only their own resistant defence reduces the damage.(+1/4? Maybe even +0, balanced by damage being applied to anyone you want to catch, like a teammate who is falling or whatnot) Always seems there are too many possible exceptions to make it work though.[/quote']

 

Or you could buy an appropriately limited damage shield...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

Or you could buy an appropriately limited damage shield...

 

I don't like that for two reasons:

 

1. It really does get a bit messy defining how it works, and

 

2. Damage shield

[Dust Raven]

Re: Variant Rule: Self Inflicted Damage

 

I agree it's too much added complication to worry about. I'd only ever use something like that in a heroic level game, which already uses a number of extra rules that require extra bookkeeping at it is.

 

In any case, if I used a rule like this, I wouldn't base it solely on resistant PD, but on any PD. Basically I'd treat all HTH attacks like Move Thrus and Move Bys, with the attacker automatically taking 1/2 or 1/3 his own damage with every impact (and maybe increasing the damage self inflicted from those maneuvers to compensate).