How to do Priests use magic???

[Ferret]

I'm about to run with Fantasy Hero. I want your wisdom on this baffling question. When doing invocations that is priestly magic. Do you just use wizard like spell creation. Or do you use a Variable power pool controlled for the most part by the deity in question? I have an article that suggests this approach from an old adventurers club but it was never really mentioned in Fantasy hero. As an added concern I'm using Harn so I want my priests and mages to be differant. For the variable power pool is it still possible for the character to be taught certain rituals in his faith and cast them? Any suggestions on limitations for both the pool it self and each ritual would be most helpful.

Lastily how would you decide how big to make the pool.

It could be based soley on rank within the church. Or it could be based on the gods whim. Any thoughts???

Thanks in advance to any suggestions you folks might have.

Ferret............

[McCoy]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

That's the beauty of the Hero system. As GM, how do you think it should work?

 

If I were running a fantasy campagine, I would probably use a VPP, with the limitation -1/2, "Only When Serving The God's Purposes," which allows the GM to veto any power. Active points in pool and skill roll increase as they rise in their Church.

[Lezentauw]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

I use Favors in my campaign, though it is not what most people are use to when they think of Divine magic. Once a character has Favor from a deity they will need to pray to use that Favor.

 

Something along "Sif, Mother of Battle, I beseach thee to guide my blade on the field of battle today so that I may achieve victory in thou name." A prayer like this would give the character some CSLs during the major portion of the battle.

[assault]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

I use Favors in my campaign' date=' though it is not what most people are use to when they think of Divine magic. Once a character has Favor from a deity they will need to pray to use that Favor.[/quote']

 

This is my usual approach. In fact, it's pretty much the only kind of magic I use in some worlds, apart from the occasional magic item and magical gift bestowed at birth.

 

This is usually associated with priests being members of noble families, and thus descended from the ghodz. So it's quite literally like asking Great-Grandma for a favour.

[Frenchman]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

I've always wanted to try priests with a semi-controlled VPP (like you mentioned), but My current GM didn't want anything to do with that (too much trouble for him, I guess), and no-one else ever plays priest characters except the current GM and I.

[Vondy]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

I've used the contact rules for sorcerers who traffic with demons rather than directly casting spells, requiring them to take the spirit contact multiplier (for a single demon), and the organization multiplier as well if they want to be able to summon any demon. In the latter case the contact role represents their ability to get the demon they want (with modifiers, of course), and then they have to use other skills (their ability to create magic circles, social skills, etc.) I had the ability to banish a demon defined by the contact roll as well. You could do something similiar for priests who pray for intervention/spells. They could have a spirit contact with the relevant adders to represent their spell-casting ability. This allows the GM to put situational and behavior based modifiers into play. You might, however, make it clear that while the priest may well know the permutations to ask for something specific, that the power in question may do something more to their liking.

[Robyn]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

You might' date=' however, make it clear that while the priest may well know the permutations to ask for something specific, that the power in question may do something more to their liking.[/quote']

 

Almost like a political campaign where PC's interact solely through agents and give orders that will take days to arrive in the field, working with reports that took days to arrive.

 

But without the time delay

 

I envision a very hedge-witch level of magic, where the spellcaster is someone with a touch of fey blood in them; they can see and speak to the imps and gremlins and pixies and other mischievous spirits, and ask for favors, but it would be up to those spirits how they accomplished the task.

 

I would implement it with a Dying Earth style of bargaining, where how well the spirits liked you would rely on how much they approved of your closeness to that fey ancestry. The more mischievous you were yourself, the more likely that they would respect you and do your bidding, but if it seemed to be too much out of their way, they might ask you to help them out in return, by using the benefits of your mortal heritage to do something they could not.

[Lucius]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

I'd consider making the ability to call on Divine Power a Contact. It should probably be a very expensive Contact, especially if the character would be calling on it regularly. (Technically, I don't think you're supposed to call on a Contact more than once per game session - in this case I'd make an exception, but that's another reason it should be expensive.)

 

Doing Miracles as "Favors" is another possibility, and means that each such miracle uses up (at minimum!) one character point permanently.

 

I'd also consider giving such characters a large amount of Luck to represent that Someone is Looking Out For them when they get in trouble. Perhaps put a limit on the Luck so it doesn't help if they got into trouble doing something they weren't supposed to do (a nun about to get caught in a married man's bedroom needn't expect a "miracle" to keep the wife from looking in the closet - unless she has a good reason for being there) or even works ONLY if they're doing what they ARE supposed to do (the same nun confronted by a couple of thugs who readily surrenders the contents of her begging bowl but begs for modesty's sake that they leave her saffron robe, may witness them succumb to unaccustomed remorse or superstitious dread - "C'mon, everyone knows it's bad luck to mess with holy people, take the money and go!")

 

 

An interesting system might combine several approaches:

 

Several dice of Luck with a limitation: Not if you're doing what you weren't supposed to, i.e. if not violating a vow or prohibition. (- 1/2 ? Maybe only - 1/4 )

 

More dice of Luck with a heavier limitation: Only if actively serving the God's purpose or fulfilling an obligation or commandment, i.e. you're on a mission from God and can't be stopped. ( perhaps -1)

 

One or two Overall Skilll Levels with a similar limitation, giving you a bonus if, say, you're fighting to protect someone, that you won't get if you just took a swing at somene who taunted you that your favorite saint, Saint Francis, was a sissy.

 

A large point value Contact.

 

Some Favors.

 

 

How it all plays out depends on how you want such things to be percieved in your game. Say a priest is praying over a wounded warrior, and rolls a high level of luck and/or the contact roll.

 

If you want relatively constant, obvious, low level divine interventions in your game, an appropriately colored light envelops the warrior and the most serious wounds visibly close, as if a month's worth of recuperation were compressed to a minute.

 

If you want a more subtle effect, the warrior merely stirs and recovers consciousness unexpectedly, and when the blood's cleaned off the wounds aren't as bad as they first appeared to be.

 

Either way, the warrior character has just mechanically experienced a few dice of Healing effect - but how you describe it can make a difference in how you and your players experience your game, especially as it relates to "holy" characters.

And you can even vary it - making formerly subtle effects more obvious can be a clue that the characters are engaged in something more important than they realized, or a reassurance that the course they're pursuing is in fact in accord with a Higher Plan. And keeping the "everyday miracles" less dramatic ensures that when a character burns two or three Favors to Raise someone that everyone just saw decapitated, the players will be suitably impressed when a Goddess turns up in person to reassemble and reanimate the deceased.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a miraculous palindromedary

[Vondy]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

Once you add up the cost of the contact roll, all the relevant adders (abilities and resources, additional contacts, quality of relationship, etc.) and then do the spirit contact multiplier of X3 it tends to start getting expensive.

[Lucius]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

Once you add up the cost of the contact roll' date=' all the relevant adders (abilities and resources, additional contacts, quality of relationship, etc.) and then do the spirit contact multiplier of X3 it tends to start getting expensive.[/quote']

 

Either drop the spirit multiplier (which I'm not sure I understand the justification for anyway)

 

Or run the game in such a way that it's worth those points. Even if the campaign assumes you can call a contact at any given moment on a cell phone, you probably can't call repeatedly with a wide assortment of problems and get immediate answers. Come to think of it, maybe that is the justification. Lock someone up for example and it's real hard for them to reach a contact. A Divine Contact can conceivably intervene when the character is locked up, unconscious, and/or dying. Not to mention being contactable even if one is right in the middle of melee.

 

 

 

Also, I've always seen contacts written up in terms of what they do for the character. If a contact is, in one or another, just as likely to demand something of the character as to do something for the character, it should probably be possible to adjust the cost down. I did something like that once for "dangerous contact" for an underground revolutionary organization - any time the character contacted his contacts, he ran the risk of, at minimum, arousing the suspicions of the authorities, and at worst of being arrested for treason. In this case, you could justify cutting the cost either because the character must follow some strict code of behavior for the Contact to work at all, or because the Contact explicitly "calls up" the character regularly for various quests, sacrifices, and other inconveniences of being a Higher Power's handy and willing tool.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ruminates

[Vondy]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

Either drop the spirit multiplier (which I'm not sure I understand the justification for anyway)

 

Or run the game in such a way that it's worth those points. Even if the campaign assumes you can call a contact at any given moment on a cell phone, you probably can't call repeatedly with a wide assortment of problems and get immediate answers. Come to think of it, maybe that is the justification. Lock someone up for example and it's real hard for them to reach a contact. A Divine Contact can conceivably intervene when the character is locked up, unconscious, and/or dying. Not to mention being contactable even if one is right in the middle of melee.

 

Also, I've always seen contacts written up in terms of what they do for the character. If a contact is, in one or another, just as likely to demand something of the character as to do something for the character, it should probably be possible to adjust the cost down. I did something like that once for "dangerous contact" for an underground revolutionary organization - any time the character contacted his contacts, he ran the risk of, at minimum, arousing the suspicions of the authorities, and at worst of being arrested for treason. In this case, you could justify cutting the cost either because the character must follow some strict code of behavior for the Contact to work at all, or because the Contact explicitly "calls up" the character regularly for various quests, sacrifices, and other inconveniences of being a Higher Power's handy and willing tool.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ruminates

 

It actually makes sense when you consider the versatility of such contacts generally have, and I've found the cost with the multiplier fits pretty well once you work in the adders and whatnot. I never allow players to take contacts without defining the nature of relationship and what they expect out of it, anyways.

[Alcamtar]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

Or do you use a Variable power pool controlled for the most part by the deity in question? I have an article that suggests this approach from an old adventurers club but it was never really mentioned in Fantasy hero.

 

I tried that once. Sounds good in theory but (for the GM) is a lot of work in practice. You end up having to pay a lot of attention to that one character, almost co-playing it in a way, and you also end up having to use the powers in a way that is acceptable and beneficial to the player. He's the one who paid the points for it after all, so he should recieve appropriate benefit and "coolness factor".

 

I found that I kept forgetting to use the power. Also, being in GM mode I was probably too restrained and "subtle" in how I used it. Players are frequently going over-the-top and doing things that I would not consider entirely genre-appropriate or normal. I tended to stay within my concept of things and as a result the character felt underplayed, at least in comparison to the others.

 

Also players tend to be very creative in knocking down obstacles the GM is trying hard to throw at them... wtih a cosmic VPP controlled by an omniscient "god" it is easy to come up with just the right solution to just about any problem, which means the GM is constantly defeating himself... and that's just weird, like playing solitaire while the player looks on.

 

Additionally, being essentially a cosmic VPP it was a lot of work to create powers on the fly while GMing at the same time. I found I tended to use raw effects without advantages or limitations just to keep things manageable, which made things less interesting.

 

Ultimately I decided it was much easier (and more balanced) just to let the player think up the miracles and veto them if inappropriate. You can still say they are "from God" and not under the character's control if that's the concept.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

A lot of it depends on just how you view your gods and the divine magic itself.

 

I tend to think that the divine magic is based more in the faith of the priest and the gods (if they exist) are not directly involved in the process ... the faith is what matters, not the god. Really, don't they have better things to do with their time? (Eberron, how I love thee ...) But if the gods in your game are more meddlesome, then it becomes an issue.

 

So, really ... there doesn't need to be a particular limitation or advantage regarding divine influence, unless you want there to be. The limitation on the power/framework would essentially be a function of the character's 'Devout Follower of X' Psych Lim.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

It actually makes sense when you consider the versatility of such contacts generally have' date=' and I've found the cost with the multiplier fits pretty well once you work in the adders and whatnot. I never allow players to take contacts without defining the nature of relationship and what they expect out of it, anyways.[/quote']

 

I like the subtlety you get with the Spirit Contact/Favor/Luck paradigm of Divine magic. One thought that has occured to me, if I was to use the idea in a game, was to scale the "Spirit contact" multiplier based on acessability & utility. One god might listen to any devout member of the clergy who "talks" to Him in that still quiet place in his heart, while another might totally ignore his followers unless they burn the babies of unbelievers in the sacred fires of His temple.

something along the lines of these:

Spirit Contact Multipliers:

x1 (no change to contact cost): Very Difficult, Dangerous &/or Expensive to contact.

For rough calculation, equal to more than -2 worth in Limitations (loads of Extra Time, Ritual, Expensive or Rare Expendable Materials, Immobile Foci, Side Effects etc)

x2 : Hard to contact, Capricious, Whimsical or Judgemental reactions.

Roughly -1 to -2 worth of Limits...any of the above in lesser degrees, NCC, etc.

x3 : Standard.

Contact may be reached without exceptional effort, usually assists inj some way, but responce may or may not be obvious or overt, and might not be apparently immediately useful

x4 : Friendly/Personal.

Contact is on close terms with character, and tries to accomplish the desired goals with a minimum of character effort. Good for annointed Champions, living avatars, those of Divine Decent ("Dad! Help!") etc.

[JmOz]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

My fantasy world uses a VPP for priests that has a-1/4 no control over when/how powers change. Basicaly the priest asks for something IN REAL TERMS then gets the power as I see fit, or not, depending on what the god feels like

 

So he would ask for assistance in this coming battle

 

he might get:

 

A huge PRE bonus, to help end the fight early or maybe make it not happen at all

 

A magic sword (Extra damae etc...)

 

Extra Skill levels

 

Assistance from others (A Summons)

 

etc...

 

THe player does not know what he will get, but the more general he is the more likely he will get something

[assault]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

Here is an interesting quote from the Book of Dede Korkut:

---

At these words the nobles of the teeming Oghuz turned their faces heavenwards, lifted their hands and prayed, 'May God Most High grant you a son.'

 

In those days the nobles' blessings were blessings and their curses were curses, and their prayers used to be answered.

...

 

Time passed, and God Most High gave Prince Bay Bure* a son and Prince Bay Bijan a daughter...

---

 

A fine piece of server download magic. Something similar happens in a more combat oriented situation a few pages later, when a character described as "a saint" is attacked.

 

Of course, this material was translated from another language, which probably resulted in a significant loss of meaning and context.

---

* There should be a "Turkish accent thingie" on the "u" in "Bure", but for some reason my computer isn't set up to handle "Turkish accent thingies".

[Markdoc]

Re: How to do Priests use magic???

 

It actually makes sense when you consider the versatility of such contacts generally have' date=' and I've found the cost with the multiplier fits pretty well once you work in the adders and whatnot. I never allow players to take contacts without defining the nature of relationship and what they expect out of it, anyways.[/quote']

 

The cost is also justifiable when you consider that the priest is buying it instead of expending points on lots of spells.

 

I've never used it, but I kind of like the idea of the priest waving his staff about Moses- like and shouting "Behold!" whilst privately praying "A miracle, please lord, something flashy - and preferably good to eat, like last time!"

 

It also opens the prospect of "Cults" . So you could have a priest who has spent points on a contac to St. Jerome (patron saint of translators). Much less useful than points sunk into a direct contact to I AM, but presumably therefore much cheaper and useful if, for example, you maintain the church library.

 

cheers, Mark