Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Invisibility, Shape Shift and Darkness all do one thing each, and only one thing. They don't require a PER roll to see through. Images can do anything perception wise, and requires a PER roll to see through. Sounds like a balancing factor to me.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

IMO, part of the reason why 5th Ed SS is the way it is, is to allow other "shape" changes besides actual shape. Such as sounding or smelling like something else. IMO, this would have been better as Images, Only To Alter One's Own "Image" (for whatever senses). It's the attempt at trying to force one power to do too many things that is the problem.

 

If you want to fool someone into thinking you aren't there, use Invisibility*.

If you want to fool someone into thinking you are something other than what you are, use Images, Self Only (by which I mean, only to "cover" onesself).

If you want to change your shape, the power that is supposed to fill this role is Shape Shift. SS should be built in a way that keeps this purpose in mind. Does the 5th Ed version fulfil this purpose? IMO, it's does well enough, if not perfectly. And it could be written more clearly.

 

I don't have UMM yet. It's in the queue, awaiting money.

 

*With Invisibility, the SFX could be "I appear to be an innocuous piece of furniture." This might even be worth a Limitation if the viewer knows that the piece of furniture isn't supposed to be there.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

If you change how you are perceived by the touch group to feel like a fishing rod' date=' but don't change how you look to look like a fishing rod, what to people see when they see you? Do you still look normal? You sure won't look like a fishing rod, but you shouldn't look like a normal person either. But what? And does it really matter so long as anyone looking at you knows you're a normal human pretending to be a fishing rod?[/quote']

 

Generally, you'll look like a human being stretched and compressed into the shape of a fishing rod. You'll be a big fishing rod, too, if you haven't bought Shrinking.

 

Special effects might change that, though. I made a brick once with a power called "Get Behind Me!" It was built as a Shape Shift vs. touch that only allowed him to assume the "shape" of a hexside, and only while standing still. Visually, he just looked like his normal self braced for impact, but in game terms he covered the hexside and anything wanting to attack through it had to knock him down first.

 

(I could have built it as a No Range Force Wall, but then he would have had higher defenses while protecting other people and that didn't fit the concept).

[Tech]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

My playing group dislikes the 5th edition Shapeshift. I will not disagree that Lord Liaden brings up some good points. However, the simpler 4th edition is greatly preferred by my group and that's what we use.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Generally, you'll look like a human being stretched and compressed into the shape of a fishing rod. You'll be a big fishing rod, too, if you haven't bought Shrinking.

 

Special effects might change that, though. I made a brick once with a power called "Get Behind Me!" It was built as a Shape Shift vs. touch that only allowed him to assume the "shape" of a hexside, and only while standing still. Visually, he just looked like his normal self braced for impact, but in game terms he covered the hexside and anything wanting to attack through it had to knock him down first.

 

(I could have built it as a No Range Force Wall, but then he would have had higher defenses while protecting other people and that didn't fit the concept).

 

I would have built it as the FW, but included Feedback vs all attacks and Others Only.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

First Shape Shift: I'm with LL, I like the 5E version.

 

Shape Shift: Touch alters your physical shape, your body contorts into a chair shape, when people "look" at you they see a man-chair, and someone can sit on you and you're going to feel like they're sitting in a chair.

Shape Shift: Sight makes you appear to be a chair, but if someone tries to sit on you they find out you're a man standing very still.

 

Both and you can look like a leather lay-z-boy.

 

Second: Bridge.

 

Shape Shift will not let you occupy multimple hexes, so unless you're a very short bridge, you don't want this power anyway. You want Stretching whose SFX is "I look like a bridge"

 

or

 

you want Stretching to cover the distance and Shape Shift Touch to morph into whatever shape you want (plank of wood, bridge, etc).

 

Remember to work the power backwards: What do you want, ok, let's find a Power that does that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

you want Stretching to cover the distance and Shape Shift Touch to morph into whatever shape you want (plank of wood' date=' bridge, etc).[/quote']

...and the Strength to hold whatever crosses over you. Note also, that Growth can substitute, at least to some extent, for both the Stretching and the Strength.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

...and the Strength to hold whatever crosses over you. Note also' date=' that Growth can substitute, at least to some extent, for both the Stretching and the Strength.[/quote']

 

Both good suggestions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

First Shape Shift: I'm with LL, I like the 5E version.

 

.................

Shape Shift: Sight makes you appear to be a chair, but if someone tries to sit on you they find out you're a man standing very still.

 

.....................

 

I hope I'm not taking this too out of context but this is my major gripe with SS. I look like a chair, but I'm shaped like a man and, despite the fact that sight is the major targetting sense and my outlike and physical reality do not correspond, I get no combat modification at all.

 

Fight an aggressive chair and you are going to be seriously freaked, especially when the phisical reality of the chair and its appearance do not match. That just isn't how shapeshift, of any stripe, is portrayed in any comic or book or film I've ever seen.

 

Yes it gives you options. I don't want them. I want to be able to shape shift.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

...don't get me wrong...shapeshift (smell) is a great idea. It is just a shame they had to change everything to incorporate it.

[JmOz]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

I hope I'm not taking this too out of context but this is my major gripe with SS. I look like a chair, but I'm shaped like a man and, despite the fact that sight is the major targetting sense and my outlike and physical reality do not correspond, I get no combat modification at all.

 

Fight an aggressive chair and you are going to be seriously freaked, especially when the phisical reality of the chair and its appearance do not match. That just isn't how shapeshift, of any stripe, is portrayed in any comic or book or film I've ever seen.

 

Yes it gives you options. I don't want them. I want to be able to shape shift.

 

I think this is a misconception, you might physicaly be the shape of a chair, but feeling the chair it is obvious for some reason that you are a person turned into a chair

 

It probably has to do with texture, maybe you still give off body heat, or it feels like a human hand, etc...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

I think this is a misconception, you might physicaly be the shape of a chair, but feeling the chair it is obvious for some reason that you are a person turned into a chair

 

It probably has to do with texture, maybe you still give off body heat, or it feels like a human hand, etc...

 

I do get that, well, sort of. I'm good at mis-conceptions. OTOH that would mean that shapeshift (sight) actually did shift your shape...which would mean that a flexible, mobile chair, even if it felt like a human, would actually have different dimensions to a human...which is not how I understand the system to work. I'm probably mis-conceiving. I'm good at that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

So I Shape Shift into a chair. My SS is sight only. So I look like a chair. An enemy approaches, he sees a chair and doesn't realize it's me. I punch him. I can still punch normally, because SS doesn't change my abilities, even though I look like a chair. Maybe I get a surprize bonus because he wasn't expecting to be punched by a chair. He immediately realizes that I'm not a normal chair, and when I punch him, he feels my fist hitting him. And of course, he sees a chair moving around by itself. Let's say I'm appearing as a simply chair, with no moving parts. He can't see my arms and fists moving to strike him, so he's going to have a hard time Blocking my punches.

 

IMO, the above is best purchased as Invisibility with a Limitation, "Looks like a Chair (or whatever)."

 

If I Shape Shift into Jimmy Durante (sight only - do I really need to buy hearing SS also, just to do an impression of his voice?), and you put your finger on the end of "Jimmy's" nose, what do you feel? Nothing, I guess, since my real nose doesn't extend as far as Mr. Durante's, and I didn't buy the Touch group for my SS. Likewise if Durante is an inch taller than I am, and you try to pat the top of my head, what should happen? Does your hand sink an inch down into "Jimmy's" head before touching my real head? What if I'm an inch taller than Durante? If the "shape shift" is essentially just a hologram projected over me, then IMO, it should be purchased as Images with a Limitation "Only to change self".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

In my opinion - SS:Sight - Chair is not an appropriate use of Shapeshift alone. If it is SS:Sight+Touch - Chair then it's not only reasoning from effect, but a correct useage (again, IMO).

 

The whole arguement would be moot were I GM, because I wouldn't allow SS:Sight - Chair without a dang good reason.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

My understanding is thus:

 

SS: Sight, you turn into a chair. This means that you look like a chair and have the shape of a chair and can be sat on like a chair, and you can even look like a wooden chair or a folding metal chair or whatever, but anybody who touches you will feel a chair made out of human flesh. With SS: Touch, when they feel the chair, they'd feel a chair made out of whatever substance the shapeshifter wanted them to feel, whether it be a wooden chair, or a metal folding chair, or whatever.

 

So "sight" gives you the shape and appearance, but not the texture. Touch adds the texture. SS: Touch by itself wouldn't allow somebody to touch you and feel "chair", nor would it let you look or take the shape of a chair. You could make them feel a texture, however. You could become a person made of wood, or of steel, or whatever "touch" you wanted to convey - but you'd still have the appearance and shape of a person, specifically you.

 

Using the Plasticman example, he'd have SS: Sight only. He could become the chair, but a chair made out of Plasticman only. He couldn't become a chair made out of wood.

[archermoo]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

My understanding is thus:

 

SS: Sight, you turn into a chair. This means that you look like a chair and have the shape of a chair and can be sat on like a chair, and you can even look like a wooden chair or a folding metal chair or whatever, but anybody who touches you will feel a chair made out of human flesh. With SS: Touch, when they feel the chair, they'd feel a chair made out of whatever substance the shapeshifter wanted them to feel, whether it be a wooden chair, or a metal folding chair, or whatever.

 

So "sight" gives you the shape and appearance, but not the texture. Touch adds the texture. SS: Touch by itself wouldn't allow somebody to touch you and feel "chair", nor would it let you look or take the shape of a chair. You could make them feel a texture, however. You could become a person made of wood, or of steel, or whatever "touch" you wanted to convey - but you'd still have the appearance and shape of a person, specifically you.

 

Using the Plasticman example, he'd have SS: Sight only. He could become the chair, but a chair made out of Plasticman only. He couldn't become a chair made out of wood.

 

Not quite. Basically SS: Sight only changes what other people see. It doesn't actually change your shape. SS: Touch is what changes your actual physical shape Plasticman would have SS: Touch only. I.e. he can change is actual physical shape to that of a chair, but it is a chair that looks like him, not a wooden chair. To do the "look like a wooden chair" thing requires both. And since you can't change size or mass by more than 10%, it'd have to either be a big chair, or you'd have to buy Shrinking linked to SS.

[schir1964]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

What if the Shape Shift power had the following changes:

 

1) Touch: Strictly defined as affecting surface texture only.

2) Shape (Adder): Allows one to change one's form. 5 Points Per 10% Form Change.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

What if the Shape Shift power had the following changes:

 

1) Touch: Strictly defined as affecting surface texture only.

2) Shape (Adder): Allows one to change one's form. 5 Points Per 10% Mass Increase/Decrease.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

No.

 

The only thing that COULD be done is to change the wording in SS.

 

Or to completely and fully read the power - because it is VERY CLEAR under the description that TOUCH CHANGES YOUR SHAPE.

 

I'm sorry, I know, I'm going towards snark.

 

But we're getting stuck on semantics about "touch" and "sight" and blah blah blah. If you read Shape Shift it's very clear that Touch means Change Physical Shape Around.

 

SS: Sight is innappropriate to change into a chair, unless you also have SS: Touch and want to change into a Green Leather Chair.

 

There's no need for additional adders, advantages or anything else to get SS to "work" like it did in 4E. It already works the same way in practice. Just the wording was changed to bring it fully under Sense Affecting Powers.

[archermoo]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

What if the Shape Shift power had the following changes:

 

1) Touch: Strictly defined as affecting surface texture only.

2) Shape (Adder): Allows one to change one's form. 5 Points Per 10% Mass Increase/Decrease.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

It would be a different power? And I like the version in the book better...

[schir1964]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

It was just a suggestion.

 

It seems what everyone always gets bent out of shape about (oops, unintended pun) is that the majority of common SFX always requires Touch just to get the shape change portion but it also brings the baggage of the Texture portion which may or may not be applicable.

 

I was just trying to separate the two which would add more granularity (which is what I though most people here wanted).

 

Just An Idea

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Or to completely and fully read the power - because it is VERY CLEAR under the description that TOUCH CHANGES YOUR SHAPE.

True, but only up to 10% of your body mass may be changed, per the rules, which makes very little sense for many of the SFX which this power is meant to allow you to build.

 

Just An Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[archermoo]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

True, but only up to 10% of your body mass may be changed, per the rules, which makes very little sense for many of the SFX which this power is meant to allow you to build.

 

Just An Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Easily taken care of, and covered in the description of the power. If the SFX of the power you are trying to build requires more than a 10% change in size and/or mass, linked Growth, Shrinking, and/or Density Increase should pretty much take care of things. No need to have a power that changes size and shape when there is already a power that changes size. Just like we don't need a separate power that both does damage and blinds someone, since that can already be built using EB and Flash.

[archermoo]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

It was just a suggestion.

 

It seems what everyone always gets bent out of shape about (oops, unintended pun) is that the majority of common SFX always requires Touch just to get the shape change portion but it also brings the baggage of the Texture portion which may or may not be applicable.

 

I was just trying to separate the two which would add more granularity (which is what I though most people here wanted).

 

Just An Idea

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Understood. And my post was just my response. I am at least not bent out of shape (to continue the use of your pun). And how is the Texture portion "baggage"? Just because you have SS:Texture to have an actual physical change doesn't mean that the tactile feel of the new shape cannot be the same as your normal tactile feel.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

"Texture" isn't baggage - don't want to change your texture then don't. Only want to change your texture, sounds like a Limitation to me.

 

As for the 10% mass change - that'd be exactly the same as it is in 4E - Exactly.

 

That's what, as Archermoo pointed out, Density Increase and Growth/Shrinking are for.

 

Shape Shift: your shape.

Density Increase: your weight

Growth/Shrinking: your size

 

changing more than one? you'll need more than one power.

 

There's no need to start creating powers that combine aspects of several different powers; might as well go through the system and start making powers from every single combination possible - oh wait, those are called Characters.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshift: Still having trouble adjusting from 4th to 5th.

 

Not quite. Basically SS: Sight only changes what other people see. It doesn't actually change your shape. SS: Touch is what changes your actual physical shape Plasticman would have SS: Touch only. I.e. he can change is actual physical shape to that of a chair' date=' but it is a chair that looks like him, not a wooden chair. To do the "look like a wooden chair" thing requires both. And since you can't change size or mass by more than 10%, it'd have to either be a big chair, or you'd have to buy Shrinking linked to SS.[/quote']

That can't be right either since Plasticman can't change his texture. When he changes into the shape of a chair, the surface of the chair still feels like Plasticman's skin (whatever that feels like).

 

There's no need for additional adders' date=' advantages or anything else to get SS to "work" like it did in 4E. It already works the same way in practice. Just the wording was changed to bring it fully under Sense Affecting Powers.[/quote']

Except that it isn't a Sense-Affecting Power. It's a Body Affecting Power. That's the problem that I (and apparently many others) have with the way the power is written in 5e. It really doesn't make sense to purchase shape changes by sense groups. The simple act of changing shape is detectable by both sight and touch - sight even if color doesn't change, and touch even if texture doesn't change. IMO, the 5e writeup is like a square peg desparately hammered into a round hole.

 

So, what sense groups to I need to buy if I want to change shape into Jimmy Durante? Or other human shapes? Sure, you can define it by sense groups if you really want to, but you will likely arive at a cost structure that bears no relation to the utility of the power.