Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

[Edsel]

I am trying to model a magical defense barrier from the anime TV series The Slayers. Briefly The Slayers is a classic western medieval fantasy setting (Dragons, knights, bandits, etc.). Magic-users often use a type of protective barrier against opposing magic spells. These barriers seem to work verses any type of magical spell cast against them, but not against physical attacks. Its characteristics are:

 

• It protects against any ranged magical attack (EB, RKA, Adjustment or Mental attacks).

• It can protect against multiple different types of magic spells at once. It has been shown to defend against at least two at once and I suspect it ought to be able to defend against many more at once.

• The barrier can be used to provide protection for others as well it seems to be about a 2” AE radius.

• Multiple magic-users together can erect a more powerful barrier though this is not directly cumulative. Each additional caster seems to be able to bolster the existing barrier by about half as much as if they had formed their own barrier. So two casters can make a 150% strength barrier, three would be 200%, four 250%, etc.

• The barrier does not protect against melee attacks. In fact it seems to provide no hindrance for anyone to simply walk up and melee the magic-user. So apparently the barrier can be walked through by anyone.

• It may prevent the passage of magical or enchanted creatures but this has never been clearly depicted one way or another.

• The caster can cast outgoing spells through his own barrier but this more difficult than casting a spell normally (perhaps a skill roll penalty).

• A normal person can pass through the barrier, even if armed with a magic weapon.

• If the barrier fends off an attack that is anything but trivial it seems to either weaken or place a strain on the caster who is maintaining the barrier. Given enough attacks the barrier will eventually fail.

• The barrier cannot be re-energized. But if the caster can put up a new barrier once the old one is either dropped or destroyed. However it takes a full Phase to put up a new barrier so dropping the old one ensures that the caster is vulnerable for at least a full phase.

• If the barrier is penetrated by an attack it immediately fails and drops.

• The ability to create such a barrier seems to be inherent to being a magic-user. If you can cast spells you seem to automatically be able to put up a barrier of some strength.

• Obviously more powerful casters can form and maintain stronger barriers.

• Shrine Maidens (or Priests) can make stronger barriers than any other magic-using character even though their offensive power is less than other magic-users. Protective magic is one of their strong points.

 

I have tried several methods of simulating this. A Suppress seems to fit it best but it is hideously expensive when all the required advantages are added to the power (AE 1” radius x2 (+3/4), protects against all magic effects at once (+2), Personal Immunity (+1/4). 20 Active Points per 1d6 of Suppress! Keep in mind that even a moderately experienced magic-user is probably able to erect a barrier that would offer 100% protection from a 40 Active Point attack and that would require about 12d6 of Suppress which would cost 240 Active Points! This doesn’t even address issues like cooperative barriers.

I have also thought about a Force Wall but since you'd need to buy PD, ED, Power Def., and Mental Def. it too becomes very costly.

 

Anyone got any ideas how to build this sort of barrier for a reasonable cost?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Well,

 

Instead of Suppress (which might be more mechanically accurate but more cumbersome) why not just use Force Wall with some special House Rules. Make a custom Magic Defense or just use Power Defense. Say it applies to magical based Mental powers. Give all magical creatures a disadvantage that they cannot cross such barriers.

[zornwil]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Especially given you want a reasonable cost and it has so many capabilities, I would also go something like Hyper-man's route. I might be wrong but I don't know that you can perform all of the above AND have it be "reasonable" without resorting to 1/5 tricks such as making this thing a pseudo-Follower or Summons or such.

 

Depending, you might also find it easiest to work it up with all the HERO powers as needed (Suppress, Force Wall, etc.) and then just recost it to be accessible, flat-out. I realize you may want to avoid that just because then the cost will be so low it's easy to stack up, though.

 

As another thought, once you figure out an acceptable build and cost, in order to assure it stays out of players' hands for inappropriate or too-powerful purposes, you could declare it's basically a power available to everyone with the appropriate magic skill, but all take a -1 per 10 AP on the skill roll, or such. You could house rule that if one's chances to throw a particular level of force put them at 17- it doesn't fail, if that's appropriate (otherwise you have the 1 in 216 chance, which also might be appropriate). This skill roll basis will also allow your higher-powered magic users to make a more powerful version while forcing your lower-powered mages to stick with the standard version.

[Edsel]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

I have been using multiple sources in my efforts to create a version of The Slayers that will work within the Hero System. Guardians of Order made two different versions of the game. One used their Tri-Stat system (aka BESM, Big Eyes Small Mouth) and the other used the OGL D20 system but with a somewhat modified magic system. I have also been pulling inspiration from the manga and anime and several very good fan websites.

 

I like what GOO did with their D20 version. In that system the various magic-user classes gain the barrier ability as an automatic class ability that increased in power as the character increased in level.

 

I am beginning to think that the only way to make this work is either using a cost multiplier, divisor or whatever you want to call it (see page 266 of Fantasy Hero, Lex Magisterium the first paragraph under Rules). The only other alternative would be to create a custom power and assign its costs and abilities to whatever levels I feel is appropriate.

 

I don't like having to resort to either option since I find that sort of hand waving to be distasteful. Perhaps I am just being too narrow minded. I want to come up with a version of The Slayers that works for Hero and since I intend to share what I create I want to take as few liberties with the canon Hero rules as possible.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Remind me again why a Force Wall doesn't work? What you describe and what I remember from when I saw that show was a textbook Force Wall. Buy Transparent to PD (meaning you don't have to blow points on PD!) and Limit its ED / Mental / etc to "only magic." Add Feedback to get the personal strain thing and deal with firing past your own with a naked Indirect, RSR. Making it stronger through group effort just means everyone bought Aid Magic Barrier Xd6 and making a better one when you're more experienced just means you've dumped more points into the Wall, silly.

 

e: also what Hyper-Man said about giving critters a Phys Lim "Can't Cross These Things" is the most elegant way to get that bullet point.

[Fireleaper]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

xd6 Dispel all Magic simultaneously (+2), Continuous (+1), AOE (2 hexes +3/4), Cumulative (x4 points +1), personal immunity (+1/4) = 18 pts per dice of dispel, Ablative (loses 5 active points of power whenever hit, -1 [pg 116 defence powers]), Full phase to activate (-1/4), Side effect -3 to all spellcasting checks on spells cast through the barrier (-1/2), 6.5 real points per dice of dispel so far,

cumulative to represent that multiple people may add to the barrier (might rework cumulative to say that others may add to the barrier instead of standard effects at +1/2 but my first assumption is no funky), the only problem is that if a spell is powerful enough to bypass the dispel it is unaffected. You might want to lace a limitation saying that if a spell breaks through the barrier then the barrier automatically deactivates.

 

Not sure if this suggestion is helpful but I hope you find it useful.

[sbarron]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Slayer's Magic Barrier - Novice : Force Wall (5 ED/5 Mental Defense/5 Power Defense; 6" long and 2" tall), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Transparent to PD Attacks (+1/2); Limited Power - Only protects against ranged magical attacks (-1 1/2), Feedback (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Restricted Shape - Dome Shaped (-1/4). Active Cost: 87 points, Real Cost: 20 points.

 

Slayer's Magic Barrier - Intermidiate : Force Wall (8 ED/8 Mental Defense/8 Power Defense; 6" long and 2" tall), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Transparent to PD Attacks (+1/2); Limited Power - Only protects against ranged magical attacks (-1 1/2), Feedback (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Restricted Shape - Dome Shaped (-1/4). Active Cost: 126 points, Real Cost: 30 points.

 

Slayer's Magic Barrier - Advanced : Force Wall (12 ED/12 Mental Defense/12 Power Defense; 6" long and 2" tall), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Transparent to PD Attacks (+1/2); Limited Power - Only protects against ranged magical attacks (-1 1/2), Feedback (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Restricted Shape - Dome Shaped (-1/4). Active Cost: 178 points, Real Cost: 42 points.

 

I've never seen Slayer's, so I'm just working off your explanation. Transparent allows PD through without bringing down the wall, which includes people walking through it. Feedback models the apparent effect the caster feels when the wall is hit. "Restricted Shape - Dome" I threw in because it sounded like these shields are like an AE Radius. Personal Immunity will allow you to shoot through it yourself.

 

Technically, you're not supposed to buy personal immunity to be able to fire through your own forcewall. But I'd just call that a "Slayers" setting rule. Buying indirect on all your powers would be prohibitably expensive.

 

If those costs are too high for you, I'd just cut them in half. It sounds like all magic using PCs get this power, so you shouldn't feel bad about adjusting the price accordingly. It's a feature of the setting.

[Edsel]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Those look pretty good. You have the Active and Real costs mis-named though. Active Cost is the cost with all advantages and adders. Real cost is the final actual cost, after limitations, in character points. I might do a few of the limitation values a little differently (magic fairly common). But this does give me a good start to experiment with. Hopefully this will jolt me out of the creative block I have been suffering.

 

I've got some rep to distribute here, starting with sbarron.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

To me this is one of the world building steps when using Hero.

 

When constructing your magic system then you should put in a common limitation (affected by power defence (magic) -1/4). Thus if you want to build things like anti-magic barriers, all magic contains the limitation and you base all of your anti-magic stuff on 'power defence (magic)'.

 

 

Doc

 

PS: obviously power defence (magic) could be replaced with any particular defence that you think most appropriate. This is an example of one of the things that Fantasy Hero GMs have to think about that other game's GMs do not (in other games such assumptions etc are built into the game system).

[Edsel]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

This is a pretty cool idea Doc. Of course now I am all tapped out on rep for another 24 hours.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

I agree with Doc D: if this is a particular setting and not just a character froma particuar setting it is best to use house campaign rules to get the flavour you want.

 

Now I don't know the series you mention but one fundamental question with magic (to my mind) is this: are all attacks made by magic magic attacks?

 

Sounds obvious but it isn't: if I use a magic spell to pick up and hurl a boulder is that magic? What if I make myself superstrong with magic and hurl a boulder?

 

More subtly, if I cast a fireball, what am I doing? Is it purely a magic attack that LOOKS like a fireball or am I actually summoning fire, or opening a potral to the Plane of Fire or even teleporting in a tiny fragment of the sun?

 

Is summoned or transported fire magical or is is just mvoed about by magic?

 

The easiest answer here is that all attacks initiated by magic are considered magical - then the magic defence thing works against each one, and the inclusion of a magic defence solves a lot of the problems.

 

Personally I would have trouble justifying a rock that way picked up and thrown by magic as magical, but you might not (similarly you might pick up and hurl an existing fire by magic - does that make it magical or not?)

 

These are the sort of questions you need to address at the start of the campaign and you'll (hopefully) not have too many problems as it proceeds.

 

Now one thing that is quite difficult is the 'strain' thing. Ablative as presented in the system is not ideal: your description did not seem to indicate that the defence either weakened or gained an activation roll: it just fell after absorbing so much damage or so many active points of attack.

 

For that you either need a custom limitation (can absorb 100 active points then falls -1/4).

 

Now the other thing I was not clear on: can attacks breach the barrier without knocking it down? This might change the way you would build it.

 

Can I point you at THIS thread, which might be what you are after (consider the END Reserve to be a set amount with each use, no recoveries. Might do that with some sort of charges.) Unfortunately it only works for damage, but that would be fixable too (convert 5 active points of attack to 3 points of stun damage, or consider mental 'damage' and flash 'damage and adjustment 'damage to be normal damage - which will sell adjustment powers a little short, so you may want to halve adjustment power costs for magical adjustment powers, either as an advantage (+1/2) or the way you apply the power.)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Now I don't know the series you mention but one fundamental question with magic (to my mind) is this: are all attacks made by magic magic attacks?

 

Sounds obvious but it isn't: if I use a magic spell to pick up and hurl a boulder is that magic? What if I make myself superstrong with magic and hurl a boulder?

 

This is an interesting question and one that can more obviously be answered when using Hero than other systems.

 

I think that the break in your all attacks initiated by magic comes from comparing the situation where the magic causes rocks to be thrown or the magic causes someone to be strong enough to throw the rocks.

 

In Hero you would see that one magic spell is Aid - and thus the magic defence would have to be on the recipient of the Aid - and the other is either EB or TK. With EB the Pow Def is an obvious defence, with TK it possibly is not though it could be argued that the anti-magic causes the TK to fail and the rock to stop moving. (No fair bringing Newtonian mechanics into it - its magic!!).

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

To me this is one of the world building steps when using Hero.

 

When constructing your magic system then you should put in a common limitation (affected by power defence (magic) -1/4). Thus if you want to build things like anti-magic barriers, all magic contains the limitation and you base all of your anti-magic stuff on 'power defence (magic)'.

 

 

Doc

 

PS: obviously power defence (magic) could be replaced with any particular defence that you think most appropriate. This is an example of one of the things that Fantasy Hero GMs have to think about that other game's GMs do not (in other games such assumptions etc are built into the game system).

I replaced Power Defense with Supernatural Defense in entirety in all my HERO games, it fits pretty much all my concepts that I so far have chosen HERO for. It pretty much also reassigns Pow Def an SFX-basis as with Ener, Phys, and Ment.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

A thought sprung to mind - no time to flesh it out, perhaps someone else may feel the need...

 

Missile Deflection. Problems would include: casting other spells while it's on, increasing power with more casters, how to make it ablative..

 

You'd have to say 'only against magic attacks' and make all magic attacks 'can be missile deflected'

 

Just a thought.

[Edsel]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

When constructing your magic system then you should put in a common limitation (affected by power defence (magic) -1/4). Thus if you want to build things like anti-magic barriers' date=' all magic contains the limitation and you base all of your anti-magic stuff on 'power defence (magic)'.[/quote']

I really like this idea. In fact I am currently reviewing the spells that I have created up until this point and giving this sort of limitation to a lot of them.

Now I don't know the series you mention but one fundamental question with magic (to my mind) is this: are all attacks made by magic magic attacks?

The Slayers features a main group of characters who are mostly, but not all, magic-users and very powerful ones at that. In the D20 System the main character Lina Inverse is presented as a 23rd level epic character and that is at the start of season one of the three season TV series!

However, in actuality, magic-users are not run of the mill. Maybe 1 in a couple of hundred people use magic and most of them are obviously not world-class like Lina. It is common to be attacked by loads of goons who rely on good old conventional weapons. The series is also big on comedy so it is sort of light-hearted. I envision player characters for such a setting to make liberal use of things like combat luck in order to survive the occasional over-the-top magics. The most powerful generally known about mega-spell is 18 Damage Classes with some advantages on top of that! But far more common stuff are routine attack spells that are in the 6-10 Damage class range.

 

This has been a very helpful thread for me. I got some fresh ideas and my optimism has revived.

[pinecone]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Well,

 

Instead of Suppress (which might be more mechanically accurate but more cumbersome) why not just use Force Wall with some special House Rules. Make a custom Magic Defense or just use Power Defense. Say it applies to magical based Mental powers. Give all magical creatures a disadvantage that they cannot cross such barriers.

 

Yeah sounds like FW ED,Transparent to PD...unless you have "non-magical e-atks your mostly done....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

Yeah sounds like FW ED' date='Transparent to PD...unless you have "non-magical e-atks your mostly done....[/quote']

 

If you use Power Defense (Magic) as the core defense and don't even include ED you don't need to buy the Transparent Advantage. As stated earlier, you then just take an "Affected by Power Defense" limitation on ALL magic spells. This way, a flask of flaming oil or a burning torch can get by the Magic Barrier unaffected. Also might not apply to indirect magics like that of a Druid summoning a lightning storm. The lightning itself may not necessarily be considered magical in nature.

[pinecone]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

If you use Power Defense (Magic) as the core defense and don't even include ED you don't need to buy the Transparent Advantage. As stated earlier' date=' you then just take an "Affected by Power Defense" limitation on ALL magic spells. This way, a flask of flaming oil or a burning torch can get by the Magic Barrier unaffected. Also might not apply to indirect magics like that of a Druid summoning a lightning storm. The lightning itself may not necessarily be considered magical in nature.[/quote']

 

I thought the rules state that without transparent a special defence FW comes crashing down if a pigeon flys past...seems like nonesense but I remember it that way......guess I'd need to reread the rules before building..(a good idea in all cases anyway)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Modeling An anti-magic Barrier

 

I thought the rules state that without transparent a special defence FW comes crashing down if a pigeon flys past...seems like nonesense but I remember it that way......guess I'd need to reread the rules before building..(a good idea in all cases anyway)

 

from 5ER page 180

 

Force Walls that provide only Mental Defense, Flash Defense, and/or Power Defense are automatically

Transparent to Physical and Energy damage. The “exotic” Force Walls are only destroyed if they

take more “BODY” damage than they have defense from any attack that targets Mental Defense, Flash

Defense, or Power Defense (the “BODY” done by the Power should be counted as Normal Damage

BODY, even if the Power normally does not do BODY damage). They can purchase the Transparent

Advantage to attacks against one (or more) of those defenses.

Force Walls that provide both a “regular” and an “exotic” defense can be destroyed by any type of attack (but can, of course, be bought Transparent).