Chris Goodwin Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... It isn't "my personal definition". It's the definition used by the entire gaming industry and community as well as writers and readers of genre fiction. Urban Fantasy is the term used by the "entire" publishing industry, as well as the author of Fantasy Hero, to represent a particular subgenre of fantasy that takes place in the modern day, usually in a city environment. I don't know how long you've been playing RPGs, or how long you've been speaking English, but there are contextual definitions, which exist in all languages, even if you aren't a native speaker of English. Or maybe you're being deliberately obtuse for some reason. I don't mean this as an insult, but it baffles me that this isn't obvious to you. It's not that it's not obvious. It's that the term "fantasy" despite having had all of those meanings previously, is used by the publishing industry and RPGers to refer to, essentially, stories with magic in them. It has, effectively, been given this definition, in much the same way Urban Fantasy has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Is there any genre of fiction that isn't fantasy in your view? I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the works of Arthur C. Clark' date=' Isaac Asimov, or Kurt Vonnegut as "fantasy." When I go to a bookstore, they have a section for "SciFi" and a section for "Western" etc., and a separate section for "Fantasy." Is that too general a term, in your view? Should they instead label their sections as "Fantasy: Science Fiction," "Fantasy: Western," "Fantasy: Horror," and "Fantasy: Magic and/or mythical creatures in a quasi-historical or modern setting"? When someone refers to a book or game as "fantasy" do you ask "What kind?" Do you assume it's equally likely to be scifi as swords & sorcery?[/quote'] You managed to make his point for him. There is a specific definition of fantasy in the dictionary, and broadly it can be taken to include all fiction. In publishing and RPGs the common usage of the word fantasy is to limit it to a genre that has magic, swords, and sometimes fantastical creatures. The 'time period' is vaguely medieval. That is how fantasy is commonly used, but its not what's in Oxford Dictionary. The industry has decided that Urban Fantasy is gonig to be used to describe magic in a modern world, why are we now misusing a word? Fantasy has already been regulated from a broad term emcompassing most fiction to a narrow definition emcompassing a specific genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I know urban fantasy generally has modern connotations in terms of setting, but when I hear it Lankhmar always comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I think this may have come up in other threads, but: Songs of Earth and Power, by Greg Bear and Sabriel, by Garth Nix both strike me as having elements of Urban Fantasy. Both are "magic doorway" books; they move their action from a mostly mundane modern world to a mostly fantasy one. Sabriel in particular does this nicely. The mundane world is a Pulp one, post WWI, with magic in the real world and a magical school too. Plus the magical doorway is regarded as dangerous and therefore guarded by the military. Very cool and nicely textured. I'd love to see a genre book based on this kind of world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... No. Is this a board thread or a private email between the two of you? Not at all. You and everyone else are welcome to respond. I just thought it was kind of odd that when I argued against something you said, he resonded, and when I re-responded to what he said, you responded. And since you were both saying roughly the same thing, it seemed like maybe you were the same person using two different screen names. I was only curious, and did not mean to imply that your comments aren't welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Because there are non-fantasy roleplaying games. Many of them are used in psychology, some used in history, some used by military leaders in wargames - "if we invade, what would Poland do?" It's a wargame with delusions of roleplaying. Interesting. So in your view, military simulations are Role Playing Games, but Dungeons and Dragons is not? What do you consider the computer-based games to be, the one's called RPGs, like Diablo, or MMORPGs like World of Warcraft? I don't consider either of those to really be role-playing in the truest sense, since there really aren't any considerations of personality, and only minimal plot. It's just kill the monsters, increase in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Wow Phil, I don't know what to say. I did write a long post in response before I realized you were trolling. No I will not get sucked into a circular argument as you twist or ignore bits and pieces of people posts and sling accusations and insults left and right. Luckily, this is a Forum and once Identified Trolls can be ignored. Good luck I am not trolling. I am giving you my honest opinion. What bits and pieces of your posts have I ignored? What insults or accusations have I slung at you? Note that you have just slung one at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Urban Fantasy is the term used by the "entire" publishing industry' date=' as well as the author of Fantasy Hero, to represent a particular subgenre of fantasy that takes place in the modern day, usually in a city environment.[/quote'] Maybe the entire *game* publishing industry. But I noticed a section in my local bookstore labeled "Urban Fiction" which to them apparently means fiction in which the main characters are black. This, I claim, is another incorrect use of the word "urban". It's not that it's not obvious. It's that the term "fantasy" despite having had all of those meanings previously, is used by the publishing industry and RPGers to refer to, essentially, stories with magic in them. It has, effectively, been given this definition, in much the same way Urban Fantasy has. This difference is, the word "fantasy" has always had that definition. It has not always refered to all fiction. In fact, it has *never* refered to all fiction. I gave examples in a previous post. You managed to make his point for him. There is a specific definition of fantasy in the dictionary' date=' and broadly it can be taken to include all fiction.[/quote'] At some point, one can cross the line between using a term loosely, and using a term incorrectly. To use the term "fantasy" to include all fiction is incorrect, IMO. I have never heard anyone, in gaming, in writing, nor any teacher of English literature, use it that way. In publishing and RPGs the common usage of the word fantasy is to limit it to a genre that has magic, swords, and sometimes fantastical creatures. And in my experience, that's the common usage even *outside* of publishing and RPGs. The industry has decided that Urban Fantasy is gonig to be used to describe magic in a modern world, why are we now misusing a word? In this case, no one outside of RPGs uses the term "urban" that way. The word has never before had that definition. I do not understand the reason for such emotional responces to my argument. It's just grammar, folks. It's not that big a deal. When people say, "Urban Fantasy," I know that they mean "Modern-day Fantasy". I get it. Just like I know what people mean when they say, "Native American," they really mean, "Aboriginal American." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Welcome to my ignore list Chill out, dude. It was just a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... You managed to make his point for him. There is a specific definition of fantasy in the dictionary' date=' and broadly it can be taken to include all fiction. In publishing and RPGs the common usage of the word fantasy is to limit it to a genre that has magic, swords, and sometimes fantastical creatures. The 'time period' is vaguely medieval. That is how fantasy is commonly [i']used[/i], but its not what's in Oxford Dictionary. The industry has decided that Urban Fantasy is gonig to be used to describe magic in a modern world, why are we now misusing a word? Fantasy has already been regulated from a broad term emcompassing most fiction to a narrow definition emcompassing a specific genre. Normative usage is more important than academic definitions in terms of practical communication. You have to consider your audience and how they are going to interpret your words - and most of them don't sit around checking their usage against the dictionary. In other words, while fantasy technically includes a broad swath of fiction (perhaps even all fiction) that's not how the term is used in common parlance, or understood by the average man on the street who is disinterested in the pedantry of the literateurs. The point being: while both disputants are right, are both of them advancing a useful argument in the context of a discussion "what do you think when you hear...?" Which seems to be aimed at establishing what the common usage is (pragmatic), rather than establishing how it is currently defined in the dictionary (technical). And, in the end, over time, dictionaries are edited to meet current usage with technical definitions no longer commonly used being noted as "archaic." For the last 50 years or so the definitions of these words in common usage have grown more narrow (for better or worse, and no matter who is the cause of it), though fantasy is arguably more a question of tropes and focus than period (period being only one trope) even today. I would argue the Oxford Dictionary's definition is already growing archaic, even if its technically correct in a literary sense. As a result, when talking to the Average Joe , what is written in the dictionary is probably irrelevant because what he thinks when he hears "urban fantasy" is exactly what the publishers have marketed as urban fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Some of the "vampires" from Night Watch fit the low end nicely. Speaking of which... Night Watch is a really cool example of how to do a type of Urban Fantasy. It's a russian movie that came out a couple years ago - do an IMDB search if you're interested. Night Watch was the top-grossing movie in Russian history. It beat out Spider-Man and Lord of the Rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I could only find Day Watch in Russian with no subtitles sadly.... But I'm keeping an eye out for a version of the movie I can understand. From my understanding Night Watch and Day Watch only cover the first actual book. The subsequent movies are covering the next two books. Night Watch and Day Watch are the names of the two first books (well, Nochnoi dozor and Dnevnoi dozor are the Russian titles, if you want to get technical). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmakaze Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... In this case' date=' no one outside of RPGs uses the term "urban" that way. The word has never before had that definition.[/quote'] That's not true. RPGs got the phrase "urban fantasy" from the book publishing industry, which has been using it as a fiction category since some time in the 1980's. SF/Fantasy fandom in general uses the term, not just RPGs. Note also that "urban fantasy" is a compound phrase. For example, for the swords and sorcery subgenre, folks say "swords & sorcery" not "sword and sorcery fantasy". It's not that uncommon in language for compound phrases to have meanings that aren't quite the same as the individual words in combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Night Watch and Day Watch are the names of the two first books (well' date=' [i']Nochnoi dozor[/i] and Dnevnoi dozor are the Russian titles, if you want to get technical). This is true. And the second movie wasn't going to be called Day Watch originally either. It was going to be called The Chalk Of Fate. So, still stands - the movies Night Watch and Day Watch cover the first book only "Night Watch." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Re the use of the word "Urban" There is correct useage, incorrect useage and Common Useage. Of the three, Common Useage will usually win out. This is why "irregardless" has been added to the dictionary. Common Useage of "Urban Fantasy" means "Mordern Setting, Fantasy Tropes" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... This is true. And the second movie wasn't going to be called Day Watch originally either. It was going to be called The Chalk Of Fate. So, still stands - the movies Night Watch and Day Watch cover the first book only "Night Watch." I did not know that. I read the first book -- it didn't seem big enough to turn into two movies. (I haven't seen NW.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... RPGs got the phrase "urban fantasy" from the book publishing industry' date=' which has been using it as a fiction category since some time in the 1980's. SF/Fantasy fandom in general uses the term, not just RPGs.[/quote'] Fine, but that's still a fairly small segment of the population. RPGers and SF/Fantasy Fandom are almost the same segment anyway. And as I said before, book publishers are now using the term "urban fiction" to refer to fiction about black characters (with no fantasy tropes). Note also that "urban fantasy" is a compound phrase. For example, for the swords and sorcery subgenre, folks say "swords & sorcery" not "sword and sorcery fantasy". It's not that uncommon in language for compound phrases to have meanings that aren't quite the same as the individual words in combination. Yes, but the average person outside RPGs or sf/fantasy fandom doesn't know the difference between "swords and sorcery" and "fantasy" in general. He doesn't make any distinction between "fantasy" and most of its sub-genres. To him, "swords & sorcery" includes Tolkien and Harry Potter as well as Conan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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