Is this legit, or just plain cheese?

[Klytus]

I am attempting to design an android for use as a PC, only I'm having serious problems balancing this thing. In an effort to tweak points, I came up with a 20 point Multipower with slots for various Enhanced Senses. Example:

 

Slot 1) Standard Sense Mode: IR Vision, UV Vision, Ultrasonic Hearing, +4 PER with Vision

Slot 2) Analysis Mode: Detect Mutants at Range as a Sense, x10 Rapid

Slot 3) Blackout Mode: Radar, -5 PER Penalty to detect

 

The idea being, of course, the droid must select a sensor mode to use as circumstances dictate. Not all of the senses can be used together, so there is a limitation here. However, putting Enhanced Senses, things which are not that expensive anyway, into a Multi Power just may be cheesy beyond words.

 

I'm torn, so I'd like some feedback before I go forward with this.

 

Thanks.

[Talon]

I'd suggest the Lockout Limitations (-1/2, using this power prevents use of certain other powers), which seems to be the informally proper way to simulate Multipowers in this kind of situation.

[MarkusDark]

I can't remember offhand - do you need to have end costing powers in MP slots or is that just for EC?

[Kristopher]

Officially, it's "strongly recommended" that no-END and non-standard powers not be placed in MPs and ECs.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with it.

[Vondy]

I've done sense multipowers before. One in particular was a superman clone. He had a 20 point multipower and several variable slots for what were mostly 10 point senses. It allowed him to apply telescopic to his sight and hearing, n-ray, and the like.

 

I don't have an issue with it insofar as it fits the character concept.

 

The lockout lim is one way of handling it, another is to just purchase the senses at the MP level (with bonuses or whatever) and give them fixed slots.

 

In the cheese sense its pretty mild.

[TheEmerged]

Speaking for myself? This approaches Chedder. I *could* see allowing this if there were some other balancing factor -- like not being able to use half the attack powers under Radar mode or something.

 

My rule of thumb for when to allow non-END powers in a multipower is this: if the fact you can't have Slot A and Slot B at the same time isn't normally going to be a problem, you probably shouldn't allow.

[DocMan]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

My rule of thumb for when to allow non-END powers in a multipower is this: if the fact you can't have Slot A and Slot B at the same time isn't normally going to be a problem, you probably shouldn't allow.

 

So the idea of a Movement Multipower is definately Dairy Product? After all, when are you going to Run, Fly, Swim, Teleport, and Tunnel at the same time?

 

I don't find the Sense Multipower cheesy at all. At least, not for a Robot. However... I would be very tempted to buy disads for blind, deaf, and no sense of touch. And then buy these normal senses under the multipower. Especially if it's a "sensory cluster" that can be targeted and damaged.

 

Doc

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by DocMan

So the idea of a Movement Multipower is definately Dairy Product? After all, when are you going to Run, Fly, Swim, Teleport, and Tunnel at the same time?

 

Doc

 

Ah, but these cost END and he said for non-end costing powers that's what he used.

 

Could always buy the senses as cost end, then reduce end to 0 for the basics and maybe 1/2 for the advanced stuff. Maybe all that fancy thermal and radar gear drains the reserves ever so slightly. Then there's no issue with having them in the MP.

 

Mark

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy

Ah, but these cost END and he said for non-end costing powers that's what he used.

 

Could always buy the senses as cost end, then reduce end to 0 for the basics and maybe 1/2 for the advanced stuff. Maybe all that fancy thermal and radar gear drains the reserves ever so slightly. Then there's no issue with having them in the MP.

 

Mark

Quite right about the costs END point. I've used Movement Multipowers myself and, while I feel they are a little cheesy, I realised that it's barely worse than having lots of attacks in a mutlipower. After all you are only going to fire one of them at a time (actually this changed in 5th Ed., but the argument is still fairly good).

 

I don't really like senses in Frameworks, though. I think it's conceptual. I can understand why Plastic Man can flatten himself into a kite and Glide OR turn into a spring and Leap OR stretch his legs and Run, but not all at once, but cannot think of many justifications for why you can see in the IR spectrum only if your hearing is not enhanced at the same time. There are some rationales that work, I suppose, but I think it's that one step beyond.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Movement Multipower. Actually, yeah I think they're pretty cheesy. However, there are cases where a limited version can easily be justified -- the clearest being "one slot is normal move, one slot megascale". Another would be a case where you're using a different movement mode to mimic a special version of another -- like the way some speedsters have a "flight" slot to represent the ability to run up walls or over water.

 

But a character that has Swimming, Tunneling, Running, Teleport, and Flight as a multipower? No way -- that's 100% genuine Limberger.

[Insaniac99]

to TheEmerged:

 

so, a changling type character, who can eitehr form a spring, or a kit, or whatever else, needs to buy them sepperately with the lockout disadvantage?! that makes no sense whatsoever!!

 

 

to everyone else:

 

Movement Multipowers are 100% OK with me, currently i can't think of a reason NOT to allow them.

 

the sense multipower, i can see reasons to either allow or disallow it, and considering the concept, I would deffinately allow it.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Insaniac99

to TheEmerged:

 

so, a changling type character, who can eitehr form a spring, or a kit, or whatever else, needs to buy them sepperately with the lockout disadvantage?! that makes no sense whatsoever!!

 

It makes perfect sense from the point of view that the ability to have the movement power you want, when you want it, is the reason VPP's are more expense. If your opinion is different -- you're welcome to it.

 

So yes, I'd require the changeling character that wanted that level of diversity to buy a VPP.

[DocMan]

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow

I don't really like senses in Frameworks, though. I think it's conceptual. I can understand why Plastic Man can flatten himself into a kite and Glide OR turn into a spring and Leap OR stretch his legs and Run, but not all at once, but cannot think of many justifications for why you can see in the IR spectrum only if your hearing is not enhanced at the same time. There are some rationales that work, I suppose, but I think it's that one step beyond.

 

Well, in this particular case the justification is that the character is a MACHINE and can only deploy and power one set of specially sensory apparatus at a time. Looking at this one case, I find it highly appropriate. Or would you prefer a Multipower for each Sense Group? So you have Sight Tricks, and Hearing Tricks, etc?

 

As for the whole bit about not costing END.... I've always felt that was a strawman arguement. With an EC, it makes sense to limit the no END powers, but in a MP, especially with Ultra powers, it doesn't matter as much.

 

Doc

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by DocMan

Well, in this particular case the justification is that the character is a MACHINE and can only deploy and power one set of specially sensory apparatus at a time. Looking at this one case, I find it highly appropriate. Or would you prefer a Multipower for each Sense Group? So you have Sight Tricks, and Hearing Tricks, etc?

 

As for the whole bit about not costing END.... I've always felt that was a strawman arguement. With an EC, it makes sense to limit the no END powers, but in a MP, especially with Ultra powers, it doesn't matter as much.

 

Doc

 

Sorry, I was doing the classic "by the time I'd read this far, I'd forgotten what the original question was." Yes, I think the android concept could justify this. Another might be a stretchy-guy, where he can strecth his ears, or his nose etc, but has to concentrate on one sense at a time.

 

In fact, I checked the FAQ and the END thing is for ECs, so you are quite right.

 

One thing which hasn't expressly been mentioned is that Enhanced Senses shouldn't go into Frameworks without GM permission (see FREd). Here, I think I'd probably allow it, but I'd keep a close eye on new slots being added. It's still a little cheesy, though.

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

It makes perfect sense from the point of view that the ability to have the movement power you want, when you want it, is the reason VPP's are more expense. If your opinion is different -- you're welcome to it.

 

So yes, I'd require the changeling character that wanted that level of diversity to buy a VPP.

 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, the movement multipower, IMO, is not cheese, and represents someone who can't to it all at once (whether because of special effects or lack of practise) and is a perfect way to represent lots of things, a PA who has skate thrusters, one slot would be running (the thrusters just speed him along on his skates), the other a reduced end jump (he leaps and the thruster helps carry him farther) and the the other slot would be flight (the thruster work at full power to keep he aloft at whatever speed) and this type of thing makes no sense to be a VPP, and seems pointless to be 3 sepperate powers that lock each otehr out, since that is exactly what a Multipower with Ultra slots does, lock out other powers while you use one.

[JmOz]

Also the quuestion of added benefit must be figured when dealing with a multipower

 

In otherwords if character X wants a multipower with Flight/Gliding (a common combo for characters with winged flight) the question has to be asked is it really that much more powerful than a character who bought strait flight then a limited flight add on of "only downward or level"

[Crimson Arrow]

Just remembered. TheEmerged is really going to hate one of the Name the Hero characters.

 

I agonised over whether the movement MP was cheesy, but I'd already cut a lot of good stuff from the character, so it went in.

 

I think there is a difference though (rules wise, if not in practice). Strictly speaking (unless I've missed something), a movement Multipower is legal unless the GM rules otherwise. An Enhanced Senses Multipower is only allowed with express GM permission. That's a fine distinction, but if a GM prefers to play by the written rules as much as possible, it matters.

[Col. Orange]

Multipowers. Why are some powers allowed in and some aren't?

Is it really more unbalancing for a character to get a points break for putting their sensory (or whatever) powers in a MP (or EC) than a character getting a points break for putting their attack powers in a framework?

[shrugs]

[Talon]

Some MPs with movement in them are fine and some are not. The problem I've found is players who literally say "Hey! I can put every mode of movement in a MP and it costs almost the same as just having Flight! Cool!" and then proceed to do so without any thought for character conception. When someone later says "movement MP" in discussion, without any attachment to a special effect, that's what I think of: a Multipower who primary focus is giving the character lots of movement (as opposed to a Multipower based on a special effect).

 

In 5th, one type of movement MP is encouraged: the normal movement/Megascale movement MP. Other than that, I've rarely found a Multipower that is logically just movement.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Some MPs with movement in them are fine and some are not. The problem I've found is players who literally say "Hey! I can put every mode of movement in a MP and it costs almost the same as just having Flight! Cool!" and then proceed to do so without any thought for character conception. When someone later says "movement MP" in discussion, without any attachment to a special effect, that's what I think of: a Multipower who primary focus is giving the character lots of movement (as opposed to a Multipower based on a special effect).

 

In 5th, one type of movement MP is encouraged: the normal movement/Megascale movement MP. Other than that, I've rarely found a Multipower that is logically just movement.

 

Funny one common MOvement MP I have seen is this:

 

20 Wings MP (30 point reserve, restrainable)

2u Flight 15"

2u Gliding 30"

[Talon]

Sure, good point. You could do a couple other similar ones. What bugs me is non-related movement powers tossed in because they can be: Swimming, Running, Tunnelling, Teleport, etc. with little to no concern for special effects.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Sure, good point. You could do a couple other similar ones. What bugs me is non-related movement powers tossed in because they can be: Swimming, Running, Tunnelling, Teleport, etc. with little to no concern for special effects.

 

Well, that same gripe holds true for any attempt to cram any collection of powers into a multipower because it's efficient rather than because it fits concept and/or SFX.

 

Anyway, since this particular mechanic fits the concept, I've decided to let it stand.

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Sure, good point. You could do a couple other similar ones. What bugs me is non-related movement powers tossed in because they can be: Swimming, Running, Tunnelling, Teleport, etc. with little to no concern for special effects.

 

Oops, you're not going to like him either.

 

To be honest, two of them are variants on the same type of movement, even though they are different HERO powers, a bit like the Flight/Glide combo. It's the third slot which takes liberties.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Sure, good point. You could do a couple other similar ones. What bugs me is non-related movement powers tossed in because they can be: Swimming, Running, Tunnelling, Teleport, etc. with little to no concern for special effects.

 

Pre-5th Edition, I was in a campaign running a character called Steel Manta. He wore a combat suit that was (unknown to him, tho he suspected) a nanite colony. It was an OIF containing an EC, a movement MP, an Enhanced Sense (+3 levels with Targetting Hearing, since the GM decreed that the higher speed of sound in water would impose a -3 penalty), and Life Support: No Need to Breathe.

 

The EC contained Armor, Forcefield, and Gliding: SFX suit morphing.

 

The MP was a little Flight (SFX morphing to make jets, when in a Gliding configuration), a bit of Superleap (SFX morphing jump jets plus morphed pneumatic muscles), and Swimming (SFX morphed manta shape, plus morphed hydro-jets for fast non-combat movement.)